Okami HD Will Be Locked at 30fps

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    While Okami HD will include mouse and keyboard support, the PC version will not run at 60fps. Capcom tried to unlock the framerate but encountered major performance issues. Doing so supposedly broke the game logic, collision detection, and animation speed.

    From a company like Capcom, we were expecting better things. Its excuse is ridiculous when you think about Dragon’s Dogma, another game that was coded for Xbox 360 and PS3. Similar to Okami HD, Dragon’s Dogma included game logic, physics, and animations meant to run at 30fps, but Capcom put some effort in and made it possible for PC gamers to enjoy higher framerates.
     
  2. Mut1ny

    Mut1ny [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah, hard to say on something like this whether it's just laziness or difficulty or a mixture of the two. Really sucks because, especially in this day and age, having a frame rate cap on a PC game is a big no-no...to limit it to just 30fps though? Fucking stupid and they're killing this version of the game.
     
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  3. homernoy

    homernoy Limp Gawd

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    There is no way I'm buying a PC game that runs at 30fps. I game on PC for many reasons, and one of the most important is a high frame rate.
     
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  4. Messy

    Messy Limp Gawd

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    this just tells me it was programmed through-and-through as a console game - hard pass. i've given console ports a chance in the past and i rarely enjoy them. they just feel too much like a console game. there's nothing wrong with console games... on consoles.
     
  5. oldmanbal

    oldmanbal 2[H]4U

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    Reminds me of early issues with SLI in skyrim with unlocked framerates and accidentally shooting a dragon skeleton 5 miles away by mistake with a simple spell.
     
  6. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Likely due to them tying game logic to framerate. This isn't a full-on remake, it's a remaster from the PS2 game so all the bad design choices that were common back then still apply.
     
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  7. Mut1ny

    Mut1ny [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's all good and well but it's still lazy though. Port the game to a new engine, remake it, I dunno...I do know that even non-funded fan projects with a fraction of the number of people have been able to remake and remaster some older games and areas from games.

    When I see something like this that's still using the underlying base PS2 code and what not it just comes off as cheap to me. You already have a lot of the assets (sounds, models, animations, etc) so find a way to port that shit to Unreal or Unity and just remaster the game FOR REAL.

    I'm so sick of these publishers re-re-re-re-re-re-re-releasing games while just bumping up the video output resolution a tad from the last re-release a few weeks before. To me this is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

    Sure, I vote with my wallet and just don't buy the fuckers but goddamn, there's just something so slimey and oily about it.
     
  8. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Its all about money. Paying a team to transfer an old game to a new engine is a lot of money, especially for a game that is more of a cult favorite then a massive success. Capcom also doesn't use outside engines. They just switched a brand new engine, replacing MT Framework, so who knows how easily it would be to just take assets and plop them into a new engine. And going in and rewriting the entire physics engine could be incredibly expensive. A full-on remake would be nice, but Okami isn't some multi-million unit selling franchise. The game was actually a flop when it came out, it took three years for it even sell 600,000 copies.
     
  9. Krixon

    Krixon Limp Gawd

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    And lets not forget that it was such a sleeper-release that, for the Wii release, the Marketing team used an image with an IGN watermark. This game was never meant to be a huge release and the fact that it's getting a wide-release remaster is surprising.
     
  10. CptCabbit

    CptCabbit Limp Gawd

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    If you've never played this game and are passing because of the 30 fps lock, you're doing yourself a huge disservice. I can sort of understand it if you've already played it though.
     
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  11. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    So, no effort has been made. Good to get it from themselves I guess.
     
  12. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    And some people will watch new movies pirated online recorded from cameras inside the theater with a washed out image and tinny sound, because hey, they're still good movies. If you're used to 60fps gaming, 30fps is a slap in the face, that's all there is to it.
     
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  13. Goodlookinguy

    Goodlookinguy [H]Lite

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    I wouldn't call them bad design choices. I'd say 80% of games made from that time tied game logic with framerate. It was an easy thing to do, would require slightly less processing, and allowed you to get crisp animations at that time. I also did it in my first few years of game development before completely separating logic from frames. I initially experienced animation issues with what seemed like "skips" before resolving them. They most likely did it to avoid those kinds of issues, not really thinking that they'd re-release it in the future on superior machines.
     
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  14. illli

    illli [H]ard|Gawd

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    well of course it was. Considering it came out on the PS2 first, then ported to the WII, then an hd remaster for the PS3.
    From what I recall it sold so poorly that clover studio shut down, so I am surprised this is coming out on PC all these years later.
     
  15. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm just happy we'll get this game with mouse controls. Drawing on a screen with anything less is boring.

    My wife will ba absolutely ecstatic over this, as it's the only game she really liked on the Wii. And replaying Wiimote games on Dolphin is not nearly as easy as it is to play Gamecube games.
     
  16. chameleoneel

    chameleoneel 2[H]4U

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    Additionally, the PS2 source code was lost. For the Wii version, they had to reverse engineer what they could, from a PS2 disc. They still had to re-create many assets, from scratch. That this game is playable on relevant hardware, is a lovely miracle.

    I know this is [H]. But, I always find it funny when PC guys chime in and talk about how they absolutely cannot stomach 30fps. When I know that we all have played great games at 25fps, on not-quite-capable hardware and loved it. Because great games are great games.

    If you like Zelda or Darksiders, you'll probably enjoy this game.
     
  17. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Why are they still coding games like it's 1991?
     
  18. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    It was very common for console games a couple generations ago.
     
  19. CptCabbit

    CptCabbit Limp Gawd

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    That is a terrible analogy but i get what you're saying.
     
  20. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Once the i486's came out and couldn't run games meant for older platforms due to the FPS creating issues like those mentioned above, that should have been the end of that type of coding. Seeing this crap two decades later is absurd.
     
  21. RPGWiZaRD

    RPGWiZaRD [H]ard|Gawd

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    30 fps on a 240Hz monitor. FeelsGoodMan
     
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  22. Semantics

    Semantics 2[H]4U

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    Dolphin solves this.
     
  23. chameleoneel

    chameleoneel 2[H]4U

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    No, it doesn't. Emulated versions of the game with unlocked framerates, break. Just as stated by the devs.
     
  24. Semantics

    Semantics 2[H]4U

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    It doesn't break by much i've played through it at 60fps there is some collision issues but that's it just like dark souls on 60fps there really isn't a whole lot of work to do
     
  25. _l_

    _l_ I Am A Cock

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    unfortunately, HD doesn't mean smooth gaming on your display. It just means the video you will have will be very sharp and clear
     
  26. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Sort of. Since there is no specific 60fps hack for the game Dolphin is basically applying frame doubling to the game. Its running the game at double speed, which is why collision issues continue to persist. Unless someone can actually hack into the game itself and modify things it is unlikely those issues will ever be fully snuffed out. Dolphin still recommends turning off some stuff to avoid crashes as well. Dolphin is still an imperfect solution. It will be interesting to see if a modder can get 60fps working well on the PC port or not.
     
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  27. chameleoneel

    chameleoneel 2[H]4U

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    To get the base code in order to even start the Wiii port, it was reverse engineered, from a PS2 disc. With many assets still needing to be recreated from scratch. Then, it was ported to PS3, which had a unique processor pipeline. And now ported again. Its very likely that many parts of the game have several checks to ensure that timings of various game logics, are correct. And may even present self contained code environments for some scenes, separate from the core engine at large, to preserve accuracy after all of the porting between vastly different architectures. (which is probably true, since a general double speed hack in both PS2 and Wii emulators, breaks stuff. If everything was running on the same core code for timing, doubling speed probably wouldn't break stuff).

    This game is rather large. To sift and rework through all of that code to get 60fps functioning properly, and then to properly test it all, would be a huge project. You'd essentially be remaking the game. The devs here were very transparent about their goals with this new port. I really don't feel this is "lazy". Its hardly a case of "they didn't check the feature box that they should have".
     
  28. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    So what you're saying is consoles are cancer to game development.
     
  29. chameleoneel

    chameleoneel 2[H]4U

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    trolls are cancer to forum communites
     
  30. Konig-Wolf

    Konig-Wolf Limp Gawd

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    Even if it's locked to 30FPS, anyone who hasn't experienced this game should give it a try. It's an incredible gem that really deserved better than it got, and is well worth $20.
     
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  31. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I was making a joke. The point is you laid out thoroughly how developing for a console entrenches the game so deeply in the code that trying to get it to run at a decent framerate is all but impossible. As someone else pointed out, this crap should have died out in the 90s, but it's still haunting us today.
     
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  32. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Why are you blaming an inanimate object? Its the fault of developers and publishers, period.
     
  33. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

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    On one hand, I'm rather glad that the developers have at least come out and stated this before launch - many beancounting types would have said "no, just be quiet until we get dat monies and then look surprised" so I have to at least give them credit for that. Yes I too am disappointed at the current status of the game being only 30FPS. However, I 'kinda" get it with this particular title - this was a PS2 title that was subsequently ported to the Wii, then ported again to PS3..so that's a lot of "kludge". Back in the PS2 era as others said console devs tied a lot of things to framerate and whatnot. Its notable that using the Dolphin Wii emulator and framerate doubling hack doesn't mean the game runs smoothly and without error; there are actually issues.

    Regarding this kind of programming, it is of particular note for consoles a couple generations back but quite frankly, it goes further - Japanese console-focused developers (as much as I love many of their games) seem to have a higher use of this kind of kludge. It shows up in ports of many console titles where "PC centric features" aren't there yet, are buggy, or are outright missing too - even for more recent entries. Thankfully, these devs are getting better at it but it is still demonstrated with some frequency - see how the PC version of NIOH for instance did not offer an in-game resolution and graphics editing tool, nor allowed keyboard rebinding until after patching it in upon player outrage. There are a number of reasons for this and thankfully it is getting better, but it is another reasons I do feel that focus on console as a primary platform tends to be harmful to development.

    I would normally purchase Okami HD if they did everything "right" from a technical perspective and I am glad they (before this issue was described) properly priced the game at $20. However, I do feel if they're going to bring a title to PC - even a PS3-ported title at a reasonably reduced price - they should fix the issues even if it is more costly to do so. Its part of standing behind your products. I can remember that Valkyria Chronicles (if you haven't purchased this and enjoy tactical-action RPGs, do so! Its a fantastic title) had some potential issues with 60 FPS but the devs were able to iron them out and give the PC users an in-game option for a 30 OR 60 max framerate. Originally, the 60 FPS mode did affect game physics making certain moves much more dangerous, but I believe there was a workaround for that added and I have to give the devs kudos for that.

    Ultimately Okami is a fantastic Zelda-style adventure and a unique piece of gaming history so bringing it to PC is worthwhile, but it should be done "right" if you're going to sell a new product so that players get a great experience.
     
  34. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Releasing a game that works well is doing it "right". Capcom lost the source code even before the Wii port. Even with the source code, this is a game that took three years, and a very poorly performing Wii port, to even break 600k. Spending 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars completely rewritting the physics engine is an unrealistic demand. Without the source code they're starting from scratch and, at the point, your asking them to potentially pour a few million into it. And that sure as hell wouldn't be a $20 release. It sucks that it turned out this way, but it is what it is. Okami is a cult classic, not a multi-millon unit selling franchise.
     
  35. gsilver

    gsilver Gawd

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    And now I feel stupid for not playing the game years ago on the PS3, since a version with a proper framerate may never exist.
     
  36. Yaka

    Yaka Gawd

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    at the end of the day this is still a great game. and if they arent gona go and spend time and effort and money in doing a proper pc conversion the least they could do is price it low to compensate and perhaps they would succeed in increase the fan base for this game
     
  37. MrBonk

    MrBonk Limp Gawd

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    Sounds like they didn't want to spend the actual time it needed to get it right. It already ran at high res on PS3, so if they couldn't do it with minimal effort. Why bother.
    Their re-releases this gen have been exceptionally lazy and underwhelming. It's nice to get it at all (Much like DMC 1-3 re-release), but these games deserve better treatment.
    Don't remind me of their inconsistent PC releases as is, or updates that break stuff that they never fix.
     
  38. What?

    Why would the source code get lost?
     
  39. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    The only way that happens is if companies don't take precautions to protect their data. When this happens, I have little to no sympathy for them. These situations can and do occur, and usually come down to some company either refusing to spend the money to secure their data even when their IT staff warns them of the importance of such matters. Either that, or it's ignorant IT staff that don't do their jobs and make these companies aware of their vulnerabilities. I've seen cases of both in the industry many, many times.
     
  40. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    Sometimes it just ends up in a box of stuff a developer takes home after leaving the company as well. Or it gets lost in moves and the like. Especially with older stuff where everything had to be stored on some kind of physical media. Capcom closed down the studio responsible for Okami not long after release. It is entirely possible that a disc or drive containing the code ended up with someone from Clover or just went missing when their offices were closed down. The game industry does have pretty poor practices when it comes to making sure to keep track of source code.