Ok...now I am Miffed (Xbox360 XBL) CNN.com article

It was pathetic when EA removed the "alternate" jerseys in madden which had been in there since there inception and then were going try to charge for each set from each team. Ea decided not to because alot of people where pissed. Not like it matters to me, madden next gen sucks. I can't wait to see the new "legends" game that company once known as sega sports is making.

It's not a matter of "it's your choice to buy them or not" it's the fact that the companies are removing content that was normally included in the game price at 60 bucks and charging extra for it.
 
Just a thought because i don't totally buy that developers are crying that the map packs you're getting have a cost to them.

Would it be possible for a developer to allow you to download from say, your PC, to a usb drive and then plug that into the xbox? I mean you can download patches for backwards compatibly and such right?

I am ignorant to the possibility of this but hey just a thought.

*chewing popcorn awaiting answer* :D
 
Netrat33 said:
Just a thought because i don't totally buy that developers are crying that the map packs you're getting have a cost to them.

Would it be possible for a developer to allow you to download from say, your PC, to a usb drive and then plug that into the xbox? I mean you can download patches for backwards compatibly and such right?

I am ignorant to the possibility of this but hey just a thought.

*chewing popcorn awaiting answer* :D
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Companies have released additional content on seperate dvds and i've seen them on ps2 underground discs. I'm sure they could do it by usb also if microsoft allowed it.
 
Except I don’t think they ever would. It would be hard for Microsoft to regulate the way they seem to like to do.

I must say I started off as the biggest Xbox fanboy since the inception of the original. But this generation has really turned me off. I still bought a 360 and love it but the micro transactions and the ever mounting cost of the console is really turning me off. Not to mention that Microsoft feels the need to control every aspect of Live and the 360. I like how Sony is a little more willing to give 3rd parties some control while still maintaining the general direction of the service.

I’ve never been a fan of micro transaction and I’m happy Valve has come out and denounced them. It fragments the user base. This generation has really shown me how open the PC is as a platform.
 
I have been critical of XBL and the whole micro transaction revolution for some time. I see it as generally being a very poor value and you often pay for what PC gamers have taken for granted for 10+ years. It's just simply the latest way for companies to make the largest amount of money possible for the least amount of work (release a game that's at 80% of what it should be, then release the rest as an 'expansion' pack).

I'm tired of hearing about how expensive games are to develop or whatever bullshit is used to justify their stance. Want to make a lot of money on games? Don't make games that suck and people will buy them. Or, make games that suck but target mindless individuals who will buy whatever shit you put out year after year (Madden and friends). I bet most people would shell out $80 for a game without question if it really had amazing gameplay. If you can't make money today because your games suck too much maybe you just shouldn't be making games at all.

There is quite simply not $50/year worth of anything provided by XBL. Everything found on XBL can be found for free on the PC, and often much improved. I will never subscribe to XBL again unless they drastically change the service.
 
dotK said:
I have been critical of XBL and the whole micro transaction revolution for some time. I see it as generally being a very poor value and you often pay for what PC gamers have taken for granted for 10+ years. It's just simply the latest way for companies to make the largest amount of money possible for the least amount of work (release a game that's at 80% of what it should be, then release the rest as an 'expansion' pack).

I'm tired of hearing about how expensive games are to develop or whatever bullshit is used to justify their stance. Want to make a lot of money on games? Don't make games that suck and people will buy them. Or, make games that suck but target mindless individuals who will buy whatever shit you put out year after year (Madden and friends). I bet most people would shell out $80 for a game without question if it really had amazing gameplay. If you can't make money today because your games suck too much maybe you just shouldn't be making games at all.

There is quite simply not $50/year worth of anything provided by XBL. Everything found on XBL can be found for free on the PC, and often much improved. I will never subscribe to XBL again unless they drastically change the service.
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I agree with you 100% I have both an xbox360 (just got a new premium and xtra wireless controller for 300 even :) ) and a ps3. But this paying extra for maps and crap that should have already been in the games is crazy. $60 bucks should give you a complete gaming experience. I will not buy games from developers that make this a habit. You shell out the cash for a game then, as some of you already mentioned, can't play with the others online who payed more dollars for additional content.

This sucks cos the field is no longer even you no longer have access to play with everyone because:

a). you payed extra for a map and they didn't or
b). they payed extra for the map and you didn't.

defeats a main component of playing on xbox live.
 
And for the longest time one of the big advantages of a console was it didn’t matter who you were; you had the same piece of hardware and software as everyone else for the same price. :rolleyes:
 
I think all this microtransaction is bull crap. Its basically turning everything into selling items. Sooner or later your going to be charged per the minute your online like a cell phone the way things are going. Its just the wrong direction. They do this on purpose when you don't have the map and every server has all the latest map packs then your forced to buy the map packs. A fat rip off thats for sure. I thought like others have said where it would all be easy to connect to and everyone has the same hardware and software but obviously its just a market fest on live. Everything costs money practically. Everyone would be happy if it was more open-source and stuff thats for sure. Third-party map packs that can be loaded through usb or just ways of getting the maps for free and stuff. All this extra stuff should be free thats for sure. A waste of money. Tired of their bloated microprices to lol. To me it seems like online in consoles is not the same as pc thats for sure. They're already starting to show their true standings and colors. Everything you get extra on the console is free on the pc and then some with sugar on top :). To me its just a big scam and rip off to charge for everything though. Gold diggers if you ask me ;)
 
Conker said:
I think all this microtransaction is bull crap. Its basically turning everything into selling items. Sooner or later your going to be charged per the minute your online like a cell phone the way things are going. Its just the wrong direction.
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Too young to remember AOL et al when their service was, in fact, not unlimited per month?
 
Aerobahn said:
-Change multiplayer gaming to silver.
-Change the "Any DLC must have a price tag" idea around and allow it to be up to the developer. I do not buy into the making other companies look bad if some give away DLC for free, let the companies that want to sell me something create a package that is worth the charge and there wont be any compairison.
-Some dedicated servers.
-Gold members each year get a default of 400-500 MS points to spend as they wish.

as it stands paying $50 a year thus far is not worth it for what we get.
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That wouldn't make any sense at all. The only real reason to get gold is so that you can play games online - making it so that you can do that for free would essentially end Xbox Live's profitability - and to then essentially give back free money in the form of 400-500 MS points each year to the few gold subscribers that were left there were would just make it even worse.

BTW, Microsoft isn't making companies specifically charge for downloadable content - MS is making the maps for GOW be charged, for instance, because they published the game. MS holds part of the intellectual property rights to that game and therefore has a major (and perhaps final) say in how it and any future upgrades are sold.
 
Hey guys, don't forget. P2P is on the forefront of technology, it's not cheap to run that kinda stuff.
 
The maps should not have already been in the game. That's a ludicrous suggestion and defies all logic. If there were five maps and they released two ... you'd say they should have been in the game. If there were seven maps, and they released two more, you'd say THOSE should have been in the game. The only way for the company to stay in your good graces is release nothing (except a couple fixes on unforseen bugs) after the game is put in stores (unless they're willing to develop it at a loss). Free market economics is lost on most people.
 
Ididar said:
The maps should not have already been in the game. That's a ludicrous suggestion and defies all logic. If there were five maps and they released two ... you'd say they should have been in the game. If there were seven maps, and they released two more, you'd say THOSE should have been in the game. The only way for the company to stay in your good graces is release nothing (except a couple fixes on unforseen bugs) after the game is put in stores (unless they're willing to develop it at a loss). Free market economics is lost on most people.
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read through the thread. if ubi and others didnt make their exclusion process negative towards people who dont have the content, id be ok with it, and im pretty sure anyone else would to. i paid 60 for the game, now i gotta pay another 10 just to continute playing even if i wont ever play on those maps?

shit i already bought graw1 and the 1st map pack, and some of those maps are in the new map pack. do i get those for free? NOPE! i have to rebuy the same maps i already legally own. it's straight bullshit
 
Yes, I understand that, but that's not the point I was responding to. Yeah, I think its slightly unfair to exclude people but people saying "should have been in the game from day one!" is what I responded to, not that.

Some people are focusing their arguements on the topic of exclusivity, some are just letting loose in every direction possible at anything that costs money.
 
Ididar said:
Yes, I understand that, but that's not the point I was responding to. Yeah, I think its slightly unfair to exclude people but people saying "should have been in the game from day one!" is what I responded to, not that.

Some people are focusing their arguements on the topic of exclusivity, some are just letting loose in every direction possible at anything that costs money.
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and i with ppl who say it should be free. some of those maps and content should be included in the game. especially when its obvious that they could have be included from day 1, they left it out specifically to sell it. they complain about the rising costs in making games saying next gen graphics cost more money, but pc devs can do it no problem. not to mention the 50/yr to use xbl when theres absolutely no need for it. the only thing xbl gold does is allow me to use my own bandwidth to host games. so $10 more per game, $50/yr for xbl, then 4-500 ms points to unluck a gun in godfather (which is prolly free in the pc/ps2 version), unlock legends from nba street (which have been in every street game from day 1), and unlock maps in graw2 (half of which i already had in graw1 that bought last yr).
 
PWMK2 said:
BTW, Microsoft isn't making companies specifically charge for downloadable content - MS is making the maps for GOW be charged, for instance, because they published the game. MS holds part of the intellectual property rights to that game and therefore has a major (and perhaps final) say in how it and any future upgrades are sold.
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MS does NOT own the IP for Gears of War, it is owned by Epic. MS is just the publisher, they only put money for its advertisments and production but do not own the game.
 
ne0-reloaded said:
and i with ppl who say it should be free. some of those maps and content should be included in the game. especially when its obvious that they could have be included from day 1, they left it out specifically to sell it. they complain about the rising costs in making games saying next gen graphics cost more money, but pc devs can do it no problem. not to mention the 50/yr to use xbl when theres absolutely no need for it. the only thing xbl gold does is allow me to use my own bandwidth to host games. so $10 more per game, $50/yr for xbl, then 4-500 ms points to unluck a gun in godfather (which is prolly free in the pc/ps2 version), unlock legends from nba street (which have been in every street game from day 1), and unlock maps in graw2 (half of which i already had in graw1 that bought last yr).
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You assume it was ready when the game was released. The rest of your arguement is based on that assumption.

The 50/year is not the devs money so you can't include that in the same arguement. That's money to Microsoft.
 
Ididar said:
You assume it was ready when the game was released. The rest of your arguement is based on that assumption.

The 50/year is not the devs money so you can't include that in the same arguement. That's money to Microsoft.
Click to expand...

However, the 60 bucks a game is the Devs money...
 
ManCannon said:
The ECE included:

3 new vehicles
4 new maps
6 new characters
Alternate setups for old maps

Try again.
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The characters are neglible anyway. Either way, I got nothing from the pack. They should of called it "UT2004 Onslaught Choice Edition" because that's all it was. The real community that plays TDM, TAM and CTF didn't get shit from that pack. 80% of the maps played arn't even made by Epic. Only two maps played in TAM made by Epic is Rankin and Grendelkeep.

The maps were terrible, and the only good vehicle was the Cicada.
 
Sinister Crayon said:
However, the 60 bucks a game is the Devs money...
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Yep. And its what the market will give them for it. If people would pay $100 for it ... they'd charge $100. These are businesses, not charities, and they don't judge their prices on what's "fair", they judge it on how much profit they want to make. Its easy to call it being "fair" or being "greedy" when you're not neck deep in a spreadsheet judging costs against potential income and trying to make a few bucks even if your title doesn't sell as much as you hope.

People can bitch about it all they want, and have for decades ... but its basic market theory and in all time, with all the complaints, the only way around it has proven itself to self destruct over time.
 
|MaguS| said:
MS does NOT own the IP for Gears of War, it is owned by Epic. MS is just the publisher, they only put money for its advertisments and production but do not own the game.
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That means MS is the game's producer. In 99% of situations like this, that means they hold a right to the game's IP. Unless you find a link refuting this, I'm not seeing it.

Besides, if what you say is true, MS couldn't have made those maps be sold for money unless they made everyone start selling their content (which they don't). There are plenty of free things available on XBL that MS has had nothing to do with.
 
Ididar said:
You assume it was ready when the game was released. The rest of your arguement is based on that assumption.

The 50/year is not the devs money so you can't include that in the same arguement. That's money to Microsoft.
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in regards to the map packs, they were done in time, shit i bought them in the original graw, and again in the 1st dlc for graw. the rest of my argument isnt based on that assumption. the fact of the matter is these devs are charging more for less. this is seen by the length of thier games. it would be one thing if the game was $30 with additional content after the fact, but their priced 60....straight bullshit
 
PWMK2 said:
That means MS is the game's producer. In 99% of situations like this, that means they hold a right to the game's IP. Unless you find a link refuting this, I'm not seeing it.

Besides, if what you say is true, MS couldn't have made those maps be sold for money unless they made everyone start selling their content (which they don't). There are plenty of free things available on XBL that MS has had nothing to do with.
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Search Records Results


Registered Works Database (Title Search)

Search For: GEARS OF WAR
8 Items
For a list of commonly used abbreviations that appear in the catalog record, click here.
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1. Registration Number: TXu-1-193-541
Title: Gears of war.
Description: Computer program.
Note: Printout only deposited.
Secured material.

Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2004

Registered: 31Aug04

Special Codes: 1/C

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Registration Number: TXu-1-258-267
Title: Gears of war.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Computer program.

Printout (source code) deposited.

Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2005

Registered: 31Aug05

Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2004, TXu 1-193-541.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: revisions & updated to Gears of war code.
Special Codes: 1/C

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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3. Registration Number: TXu-1-282-151
Title: Gears of war.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2005

Registered: 6Jun06

Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2005, TXu 1-258-267.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: revisions & updates.
Special Codes: 1/B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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4. Registration Number: TXu-1-310-873
Title: Gears of war.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2006

Registered: 9Jun06

Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2005, TXu 1-258-267.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: revisions & updates.
Special Codes: 1/B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Registration Number: TXu-1-320-180
Title: Gears of war.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2006

Registered: 26Sep06

Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2005, TXu 1-258-267.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: revisions.
Special Codes: 1/B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Registration Number: TXu-1-337-184
Title: Gears of war.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2006

Registered: 2Nov06

Special Codes: 1/B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Registration Number: TXu-1-337-187
Title: Gears of war.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc.
Created: 2006

Registered: 7Nov06

Special Codes: 1/B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. Registration Number: TXu-1-340-100
Title: Gears of war.
Description: Computer program.
Note: Cataloged from appl. only.
Claimant: acEpic Games, Inc. (employer for hire)
Created: 2006

Registered: 7Nov06

Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 2005, TXu 1-258-267.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: additions & revisions.
Special Codes: 1/C


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Copyright Office
101 Independence Ave. S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20559-6000
(202) 707-3000
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Search it yourself...
http://www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html
 
All that tells you is that Epic filed the papers. It doesn't tell you what kind of contractural deal Epic and MS are in as to the game's publishing or other rights. What I was trying to say was that the fact that MS is the game's producer means that they get a final say in how the game is published and marketed, including any add-ons such as the new map pack. MS isn't doing this to all games.
 
First off Im not a console guy, but I know a couple hardcore console guys.

They tell me that Microsoft designed the Xbox to crush both Sony and Nintendo and remove them from the console market, giving microsoft another monopoly.

Well, that failed, I personally still prefer the GC to the Xbox and still play it from time to time.

And these gamers also tell me the 360 has the same principle behind it, to crush both Sony and nintendo, but with Wii sales as high as they are, it looks like they failed once again.

On both consoles Microsoft has (again this is according to my console buddies) reported that while the consoles are selling, and there is a razor thin profit margin to be had, Microsoft will not recoup the money lost on R&D for the console.

The word on the street....
 
Your console friends are wrong. MS didn't enter this market to crush anything... they entered it to gain a hold on the living room and increase general MS brand awareness.

Given the sales and success of things like video marketplace I'd say they're doing a pretty good job.
 
PWMK2 said:
All that tells you is that Epic filed the papers. It doesn't tell you what kind of contractural deal Epic and MS are in as to the game's publishing or other rights. What I was trying to say was that the fact that MS is the game's producer means that they get a final say in how the game is published and marketed, including any add-ons such as the new map pack. MS isn't doing this to all games.
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Um no... Epic owns Gears of War, if they decided in a year to release it on the PS3 as long as its not breaking any exclusive deals they signed (which they probably did which is why we are waiting for the PC Version) then they could. Many published titles from a large company are not owned by said company... Look at Vanguards, Sigil was in full control, Sony just funded the marketing and distrobution of the game... just recently they purchased the license from Sigil (well Sigil was going under).

MS just funded the marketing and distro, that is all. The actual title and development was funded by Epic. Why do you think Epic faught to try to bring the DLC to Live for Free...
 
What I think most of you are missing is the cost of the DLC. I don't have a problem paying money for additional content... I have a problem for overpriced DLC.

If you figure all the man power that goes into building a game. Creating an engine/buying one, character design, level design, story/plot (if any apply), modeling, mapping, texturing, animation, testing, packaging... and you pay $60 for all that.... When they release a map pack that contains a game that is already built, creating a map can be done by 1 person (look at all the wonderful CS and CS:S custom maps) and testing by several... I think $10+ for a map pack is kinda :(

But I think MS shouldn’t force them to sell maps. If a company or gaming studio wants to try to builds its name and products by releasing free content... I think they should be able to.
 
ne0-reloaded said:
in regards to the map packs, they were done in time, shit i bought them in the original graw, and again in the 1st dlc for graw. the rest of my argument isnt based on that assumption. the fact of the matter is these devs are charging more for less. this is seen by the length of thier games. it would be one thing if the game was $30 with additional content after the fact, but their priced 60....straight bullshit
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I have yet to see any definitive proof that all the art was upgraded and ready to go. The original GRAW didn't have the exact same graphics as this one so obviously some stuff had to be changed. Unless they used downgraded graphics on these maps for GRAW2 you can't be sure the work was done and QA'd before the game was released.

As for the price? Well, again ... that's market economics 101. You're complaining about the free market system.
 
Ididar said:
I have yet to see any definitive proof that all the art was upgraded and ready to go. The original GRAW didn't have the exact same graphics as this one so obviously some stuff had to be changed. Unless they used downgraded graphics on these maps for GRAW2 you can't be sure the work was done and QA'd before the game was released.

As for the price? Well, again ... that's market economics 101. You're complaining about the free market system.
Click to expand...

People can still voice their opinion..... Are you saying that if people don't agree with the price to just shut up and take it?

Tell that to people who pay for their own gas. $2.98 a gal in Austin Tx... at the cheapest grade gas joints.... 3.09 at Shell...

If enough people bitch, maybe something will get done?
 
Baker said:
People can still voice their opinion..... Are you saying that if people don't agree with the price to just shut up and take it?

Tell that to people who pay for their own gas. $2.98 a gal in Austin Tx... at the cheapest grade gas joints.... 3.09 at Shell...

If enough people bitch, maybe something will get done?
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I'm saying that the only tried and true method of voicing your opinion on the cost of anything is simple ... don't buy the damned thing. As soon as you buy the game you've lost the arguement with the company.

As long as people pay ... they'll charge that price. Bitching only gets you a mildly sympathetic press release assuming enough people complain.
 
Ididar said:
I'm saying that the only tried and true method of voicing your opinion on the cost of anything is simple ... don't buy the damned thing. As soon as you buy the game you've lost the arguement with the company.

As long as people pay ... they'll charge that price. Bitching only gets you a mildly sympathetic press release assuming enough people complain.
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I personally don't use my bitching to change anything other than to sign on these forums and share me personal anger with all of you. Such a joy:D
 
Of course. Isn't that why we're all here? Just to amuse ourselves? I don't expect to change anyone's mind ... but it provides a brief distraction in the course of my work day. :)
 
Ididar said:
I have yet to see any definitive proof that all the art was upgraded and ready to go. The original GRAW didn't have the exact same graphics as this one so obviously some stuff had to be changed. Unless they used downgraded graphics on these maps for GRAW2 you can't be sure the work was done and QA'd before the game was released.

As for the price? Well, again ... that's market economics 101. You're complaining about the free market system.
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for single player, the graphics were upgraded, but in mp the graphics are exactly the same as graw (i have both games). it was the biggest complaint for graw2, the reason why most ppl were calling it graw1.5.

matter of fact they gave away a free map from graw and the graphics, layout, everything was literally exactly the same as the 1 from graw2. now unless they went willy nilly and decided to recreate the maps exactly as there were in graw1 instead of just doing an import idk. but i cant see any reason why any game studio would waste any resources doing that.

ubi knows what theyre doing. no amount of spin can change wat the VP of marketting at ubi said. "if you dont dl the maps, you dont play"

all they would have to do is redo their exclusion logic. drop players out the game when the match starts, but dont make the games totally disappear, or make it extremely inconvenient for players to play the game they bought in the 1st place. the original maps are fine with me. and even charging for dlc is fine. but whats not fine is not being able to even play those original maps unless i buy the new maps.
 
Baker said:
People can still voice their opinion..... Are you saying that if people don't agree with the price to just shut up and take it?

Tell that to people who pay for their own gas. $2.98 a gal in Austin Tx... at the cheapest grade gas joints.... 3.09 at Shell...

If enough people bitch, maybe something will get done?
Click to expand...


298? man yall got it easy. in cincinnati its about 330-340 at the cheapest places
 
Southern Cali its 3.72 for the gallon in some places. But averaged 3.65 practically. We need ethonal or something. Some new gas. Tired of high prices. They need to build more refineries to lower the prices. They don't build anymore refineries because they want the prices to stay high and to get higher.

lol completely off topic :)

I think microsoft is just shooting themselves in the foot all in all basically ;)
 
To be honest I think Epic owns all the rights to GoW. They have enough capital to self fund the game with the possible exception of marketing. That is most likely where Microsoft stepped in with the guarantee that it stays exclusive to the 360.

Epic has done wonders for the 360, GoW is superb and arguably better then anything on the PS3 to date. It was also the major reason Microsoft decided to up the ram in the console. Do I think Microsoft intended the map packs as a way of recouping the cost? No, absolutely not. It was Epics decision to develop and release the map pack and only latter did Microsoft demand that they charge. Never the less I still don’t agree with it and I hate DLC.

We might as well get used to it though as Halo 3 will probably be the worst game for charging for extra content.

It should also be mentioned that some of the maps released in the map pack may have been started in the development cycle of the game but never finished. I’m sure many people have seen the video on youtube of the GoW map that was never released. How many of those maps do you think they made? They may have just reworked some of the old maps they didn’t feel played right and then released them.
 
|MaguS| said:
Um no... Epic owns Gears of War, if they decided in a year to release it on the PS3 as long as its not breaking any exclusive deals they signed (which they probably did which is why we are waiting for the PC Version) then they could..
Click to expand...

This is what I've been (trying, unsuccesfully, it seems) to say this entire time. Epic probably signed off all publishing rights to MS. This means MS has the final say in how the map packs are released. Which is why MS is doing this to Gears of War but not other games.
 
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