NVIDIA Founders Edition Cards - Yea or Nay? @ [H]

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Yes, that's exactly it. With this gen, nvidia is explicitly and publicly defining how much more AIBs can charge for their custom cards. Nvidia now see their 'Founders Edition' as their custom PCB over the stock reference card.

The good thing (which I don't believe will happen) potentially is that with this breathing room more clearly defined, AIBs can be more confident in the expected returns from investment in researching exotic PCBs. But since they're doing that anyway to get a competitive lead, it'll just mean higher prices for all concerned in practice.

The real benefit though is for oems to allow them to dramatically reduce costs of pre-built systems where a 'regular' edition works because the consumer only sees the shiny custom Case it sits inside, so doesn't need to be Founders Edition.


The Founders edition is, in every way, bad for all g-card enthusiasts. Which is basically everyone reading this.
 
Possibly, although part of Kyle's argument for Founders Edition is that OEMs want an unchanging reference card, so they wouldn't want whatever MSI or Gigabyte is selling as their $599 SKU.

The Founders Edition is pissing off a lot of enthusiasts right now because it's an early adopter tax that will also be inferior to AIB cards released next month. Once July rolls around, it will be a complete non-issue. Consumers will largely ignore Founders Editions just like we ignored reference cards before-- even more so, as they will actually be very expensive this round. You'll get one if you need a blower for a non-ventilated case, or (later on) when you need a guaranteed reference PCB for an aftermarket water loop. That's it.

This does mean that NV is pissing off their biggest fans for short-term gain... but it's not like AMD is offering an alternative. Whether you specifically buy a 1080 or not, NV isn't concerned about them moving off shelves.
 
Having an unchanging reference design for OEMs is pretty basic and done in the Professional workstation market already.

But even in the consumer areas, system builders could have direct agreements with AIBs for a guaranteed supply of the same card builds for either X amount of time, or X amount of cards. If anything, by nvidia may be taking away this possibility from the AIBs to some extent and competing with them.

So I guess my question is; is nvidia subcontracting these cards to one of their AIB's to encourage them (similar to what AMD does with Sapphire), or is nvidia directly manufacturing and selling with no AIB involvement?
 
schizo said:
This does mean that NV is pissing off their biggest fans for short-term gain... but it's not like AMD is offering an alternative. Whether you specifically buy a 1080 or not, NV isn't concerned about them moving off shelves.
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Depends upon the definition of their biggest fans.
That could be interpreted as those that wait for the more expensive custom AIB compared to cheaper reference (historically prior to Pascal), or those that are early adopters buy now before full details and do not care that custom AIB improves on the design....
Majority of NVIDIA clients buy the custom AIB, but we will have to wait and see what exactly this new business model does to influence those prices, considering it was always tiered before between light custom and crazy-extreme OC custom AIB designs.
Cheers
 
schizo said:
Possibly, although part of Kyle's argument for Founders Edition is that OEMs want an unchanging reference card, so they wouldn't want whatever MSI or Gigabyte is selling as their $599 SKU.

The Founders Edition is pissing off a lot of enthusiasts right now because it's an early adopter tax that will also be inferior to AIB cards released next month. Once July rolls around, it will be a complete non-issue. Consumers will largely ignore Founders Editions just like we ignored reference cards before-- even more so, as they will actually be very expensive this round. You'll get one if you need a blower for a non-ventilated case, or (later on) when you need a guaranteed reference PCB for an aftermarket water loop. That's it.

This does mean that NV is pissing off their biggest fans for short-term gain... but it's not like AMD is offering an alternative. Whether you specifically buy a 1080 or not, NV isn't concerned about them moving off shelves.
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This post basically spells out exactly why FE is dumb as rocks. I'm really surprised to see this silly shit from kyle.
 
I suggest waiting for the review before attacking him so harshly, I can only assume he has some reason to like the FE that we simply aren't aware of.
 
Umm, when did Kyle ever say he liked it?!

And no, it's not just about a short term one month gain, you guys are seeing things so blickered it's hilarious.

We only have the Titan line today because the first one sold so well. Until that success, it was just a sudden oddity no-one was sure of. Let's not give nvidia yet another line in the high end...
 
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Chas said:
They've been doing it with the Titans.

If they can ramp up that sales network to encompass a couple more types of cards, why shouldn't they?
So, instead of selling OEMs the kits to build these things and making something less than the retail price of a card, why not simply sell the cards directly and make their MSRP. As long as it makes financial sense, it's a no-brainer.
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And there is, in fact, no reason why they can't - none whatever.

In case we have forgotten, they are selling both extant versions of the SHIELD Tablet, the SHIELD TV, most SHIELD accessories, AND both the TITAN and GTX980 Reference via the NVIdia Store (store.nvidia.com) today; how hard would adding the Founder's Editions actually be?

And even if they couldn't, why couldn't they sell via Amazon? (Doesn't EVGA, for example, have a clone of their B-Stock Store on eBay? EVGA - or any AIB, for that matter - could do the same thing via Amazon just as easily - if not easier.)

I think the REAL issue is that the Founder's Edition is taking a different tack from what "reference designs" have been historically - not just from nVidia, but even from AMD; it's an actual endpoint - not a starting point. (And the cooler is part of that.)

A Founder's Edition cooler is a known design, with a known set of characteristics - basically a completely-by-the-book design. It's the job of AIBs to move "beyond reference" that is what EVGA, ASUS, etc., are supposed to do. It's like Microsoft with Surface - or Lumia; both of which are "reference designs". It's not that AIBs aren't free to move beyond the specs of the Founder's Edition designs - that would be so wrong as to be laughable. Founder's Edition is, in fact, a new FLOOR design - not the new ceiling. ACX, FTW, STRIX, etc., are, instead supposed to be better than Founder's Edition - not worse.

Because the FE is, in fact, a known design, with defined characteristics, any GTX1070 from any AIB has to prove itself against the Founder's Edition of the same GPU for it to merit serious consideration - no if, ands, or buts.

I'm seriously impressed with the FE design, as it is, in fact, little different from the entire Titan series cooler design (or the GTX97x/98x cooler design, for that matter;) the fact that it's an option on a card that is actually affordable by average folks (which certainly was not the case even with the GTX970 that it will replace) doesn't hurt. (Haven't I - more than once - called the design "understated elegance"?)
The only reason I would have to disassemble the vapor cooler is due to cooler failure - exactly what is the failure rate of ALL of nVidia's vapor-cooler designs to date - and especially the GTX97x98x/TITAN X series vapor cooler designs? (Basically, why would I want to replace the vapor cooler of ANY FE GPU, since it will be going into an other-wise-bog-standard ATX case, for bog-standard applications?
Also, we have no idea what value-add FE GPUs will have (pack-in games, lengthened warranties, etc.) - nVidia hasn't disclosed that, either.

Reference designs are not supposed to e a ceiling; instead, they are supposed to be a floor. Since when have we seen reference designs - from anybody - as the best that we are supposed to do?
 
schizo said:
Kyle is downright convinced the Founders Edition is actually a good thing. I don't see how that could possibly be true, but I'm waiting for the review before making up my mind 100%.
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May not be close to the right thing for you. Certainly will depend on the person buying.
 
Brackle said:
Marketing at is finest. Trick people into thinking they are getting the best.

At least some of us aren't fooled.
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How many reference cards have you owned in the past 10 years?
 
Brackle said:
Nvidia or AMD? Nvidia im at 6, AMD im at 6 (going off memory I have owned a lot of cards)
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Sfo what exact quality issues have you had with NV reference cards over that time? Please be specific.
 
Brackle said:
My 8800GT died (bad cooling). I had 1 480 GTX die on me. I also had an issue with a 460 EVGA FTW card which would black screen (this was a problem with the first batch of card and there was no refernce card for them). I will say I had more issues with AMD cards than Nvidia cards.

Otherwise the last 2 480's I sold (no idea how they are doing)
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Interesting, I have never had a reference card from NVIDIA fail on me ever. That said, 480s..I totally get that thing failing over time.

The 8800GT has a cooling failure? How old was it? Was it overclocked? More backstory?
 
Brackle said:
I know where you are trying to go. I just do not see a $100 premium on a card that will be outdone by AIB who will be able to make them overclock better with a better cooler, and more VRM's and more phases. You can get a stock AIB Video card (which will ALL USE the same memory for GDDRx5) for $599 and buy an H55 with a WC bracket and have better cooling for cheaper.
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I think you are missing the whole point to the FE model but it is certainly not for you.
 
I have to agree with Brackley here.. there is no reason for the reference design to be more expensive than AIB cards. Tho I will say that I was very satisfied with my GTX 980 reference and it's very likely i will throw my money at Nvidia the 27th, but the only reason I do that is because I want the exhaust cooler and the smaller size of the reference cooler.
 
Brackle said:
I do actually. They are charging people $100 for a normal PCB and a reference cooler. It is the early adoption Tax for people who do not want to wait.
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That is certainly one way to look at, exactly how I spelled it out weeks ago in the article.
 
readeh said:
I have to agree with Brackley here.. there is no reason for the reference design to be more expensive than AIB cards. Tho I will say that I was very satisfied with my GTX 980 reference and it's very likely i will throw my money at Nvidia the 27th, but the only reason I do that is because I want the exhaust cooler and the smaller size of the reference cooler.
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Well I guess if you will still pay the $100 then the value is there.
 
So for the 1080 reference cards (Founders Edition, same thing just another title), does it use superior components over previous reference cards? I believe Titans are all reference cards so same quality or better quality components then Titans?

Would help to nail down why Nvidia really believes the reference card should be $100 over the MSRP - which to me makes zero sense. The reference card MSRP is $699! AIB can have any MSRP they want, if they use a reference card board and slap a cheap cooler on it they would have to charge $599 :confused:. In other words the real price of a 1080 is $699 and the $599 MSRP is really a lie. Smoke and mirrors.
 
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Nvidia saw a bit of an opportunity to grab some cash. Early adopters only going to have reference cards to choose from = willing to spend extra on the cutting edge = easy money for Nvidia. People who run custom water will want reference cards, people who run custom water = willing to spend more on compatible cards = easy money for Nvidia. System builders who want to use certified reference cards = companies wanting consistent products = easy money for Nvidia.

What are you going to do, buy from a competitor?
 
Regardless - what is probably way more important is how it performs in games (since a gaming card) today. It is a $699 card competing against 980Ti going as low as $580, FuryX $550 and so on. If people think it is worth it, sure the person and Nvidia both benefit from the exchange - great.

What I don't like is misleading stuff - like hey it is faster then two 980Ti in SLI or BS like that. It maybe faster by 2x in something but overall not. We will see, hopefully it smashes into a new realm of gaming bliss :).

I would also like to know if the 1070 is actually a full 8gb usable Vram card not a 7gb one, the MSRP to me is not much different then the 970 4gb memory fiasco (misleading the customer, knowing full well they will think one thing while you know it is not the truth). If a company will do that to their customers - what else are they willing to do is my thought.
 
noko said:
So for the 1080 reference cards (Founders Edition, same thing just another title), does it use superior components over previous reference cards? I believe Titans are all reference cards so same quality or better quality components then Titans?

Would help to nail down why Nvidia really believes the reference card should be $100 over the MSRP - which to me makes zero sense. The reference card MSRP is $699! AIB can have any MSRP they want, if they use a reference card board and slap a cheap cooler on it they would have to charge $599 :confused:. In other words the real price of a 1080 is $699 and the $599 MSRP is really a lie. Smoke and mirrors.
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"Would help to nail down why Nvidia really believes the reference card should be $100 over the MSRP"
You don't actually have improve the product to increase prices.
Sometimes increasing the price just by itself gives the consumer the perception that the card is better (some kind of implicature) "well it costs more it must be better/higher quality/etc (it's a also called Founders Card!)". Especially as people don't like to think that someone is milking them, so they prefer to believe that the extra pricing is just "well, they wouldn't price it this way because they just can".

Once people believe/feel that the extra 100$ must mean that the product is better, they'll start looking for reasons (i.e. confirmation bias). Maybe nvidia will say that the card is made from high-quality parts (aren't they always? What did nvidia do until now?) or maybe nvidia will say that they were selling at a loss or break even (seriously, the company is making 50% margins) or some "craftsmanship" slides etc.

That's how these things work. Just increasing the price can make you feel that the product is better, and worth the extra dollars.
 
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Any of you guys think that there will be a 1070 Mini in the market by third parties? Kind of like the 970 minis?
 
Raendor said:
After those reviews in my opinion the "Founder's Edition" cooler is lackluster.
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Reference cards have NEVER had better cooling solutions than high end AIB cards.....pretty much ever. I think you might be able to argue that ref cards from recent years have better circuitry, but maybe not capable of supplying more power cleanly than AIB cards. Ref cards are built like little tanks to run forever at stock speeds. Once you start taking those outside of that profile, all bets are off. Those cards are simply not designed for that.
 
HopkinsTea said:
Any of you guys think that there will be a 1070 Mini in the market by third parties? Kind of like the 970 minis?
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TDP is about the same so I think it'll come down to whether or not they could get all the VRAM on the mini board.
 
If it wasn't 100 over msrp I'd buy it and overclock it myself.

At 100 over msrp that's going to be a hard sell vs faster AIB boards with more power and better cooling for less of even the same money.

I'd wait a few weeks. The potential is there. The partners are going to have a field day. This card looks like it has silly untapped potential
 
jwcalla said:
Unless the AIBs charge $150 over MSRP.
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Doubtful

There will presumably be some stock clocked card at msrp. When those come out, these FE cards will become irrelevant. Get a stock card for msrp or pay a premium for a tricked out card. 50 or 100 maybe. I doubt people will pay a $200 premium for the same card just because it has a better cooler.

Shit I paid stock msrp for my MSI 6G 980ti.
 
NVIDIA had an issue with the way I described upcoming 3-way and 4-way SLI support or lack thereof rather. I have updated the SLI section on the conclusion page with exactly the description that NVIDIA wrote down for me since I do not seem to be able to comprehend what "no support" means when told to me.

That all said, I did speak to NV team members about 3 and 4 way SLI support, and I was told to expect none from NV or the game devs any more. So considering the shitty scaling we have seen with it while it was supported, my take on the whole thing is that 3-way and 4-way SLI are dead in terms of real world gameplay. I am sure some benchmarks will still be coded to take advantage however.......imaging that, a benchmark not representing real world gameplay? Say it ain't true.
 
Guru3d got it to sustained 2.0Ghz with the fan at 60%. It's not clear if they increased the power target or not, and they didn't post temperatures either, so difficult to come to a conclusion there. Odd, for such an incredibly long extended review.
 
linkgoron said:
This is not very compatible with what you said a few days ago:
WTF is a Founders Edition - NVIDIA Founders Edition Cards - Yea or Nay?
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Reading comprehension is not your thing is it? I fully believe that the FE/Ref cards (in the last few years) have been very much about quality and craftsmanship. You are somehow confusing a workhorse card designed to deliver years and years of quiet stock performance with a card designed with overclocking in mind.

So I am not sure what "compatible" means to you, but if you are going to call me out, you had better come up with something better than that half-assed bullshit argument. Don't confuse your lack of understanding with me not knowing what I am talking about.
 
schizo said:
Guru3d got it to sustained 2.0Ghz with the fan at 60%. It's not clear if they increased the power target or not, and they didn't post temperatures either, so difficult to come to a conclusion there. Odd, for such an incredibly long extended review.
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Takes time to figure all that stuff out and be sure about it....
 
Totally, those madmen wrote a whopping 30 page review in under 2 weeks! Just wish they spent more time on the stuff I personally care about. (Me, me, me!)
 
schizo said:
Totally, those madmen wrote a whopping 30 page review in under 2 weeks! Just wish they spent more time on the stuff I personally care about. (Me, me, me!)
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We did not get a driver till last Wednesday at 11am.
 
linkgoron said:
Yet they're taking an extra 100$ for it.

This is not very compatible with what you said a few days ago:
WTF is a Founders Edition - NVIDIA Founders Edition Cards - Yea or Nay?


Yet computerbase.de and guru3d couldn't really hold a 2ghz OC.
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I'll just say the same thing I said in the other thread...

I look at it this way (I'm open to correction if I'm misunderstanding). Nvidia spent a TON of money developing a VERY NICE reference cooler for the OG Titan after taking flack about the performance of the blower coolers on the 400/500 series. They then decided to use said cooler on the reference 780 (and on) which was a nice surprise for us consumers.

After some time (or maybe the whole time) Nvidia felt their reference design was being undervalued. I agree with this considering the reference cards with garbage in house blowers from manufacturers like MSI are only $10-$15 or so less than the cards with the Nvidia cooler.

To adjust this, Nvidia decided to raise the price of cards that are equipped with their in house cooler.

So now we'll have cards from companies like MSI with their crappy blowers for $599 - $649 (I may eat my words but I'm doubtful we'll see many, if any, 1080s priced at $599 for several months... I'm of the opinion that Nvidia's $599 price was just a cock tease to get us excited about how cheap a 1080 COULD be). Nvidia with their reference vapor chamber for $699. And partners like MSI/Gigabyte/EVGA with their custom cards ranging from $649 - $800+ depending on the model.

It's definitely (imo) a bit of a cash grab by Nvidia... But I get it.
 
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Great review, but for some reason, I feel a bit underwhelmed by the results.

I suppose it was more about me managing expectations, but I got caught up in hype surrounding the card, and I guess I was expecting a quantum leap forward. While 30-35% improvement is a huge generational improvement, these cards are going to retail for more than $800 Canadian. For the price, I can pick up two 980ti's on the second hand market for roughly the same price (give or take $50).

I am curious to see how well the cards overclock with AIB coolers - If these can clock anywhere near as well as the 980 series, then I would probably change my position.
 
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