NVIDIA Founders Edition Cards - Yea or Nay? @ [H]

FrgMstr

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NVIDIA Founders Edition Cards - Yea or Nay? - Many of you have heard about the NVIDIA Founders Edition video cards for the GTX 1080 and GTX 1070 cards, but what is it really all about? The short answer is it is the new reference card, but the story goes much deeper than that. However no messaging at all came from NVIDIA on this.
 
Real questions, for your testing and relationship with OEMs:

1) How does the 1080 vapor chamber blower actually perform in both temps and noise? Is it comparable to a standard 3rd-party cooler like EVGA's ACX?

2) NV showed the 1080 hitting only 67F at 2.1Ghz. Does it need extreme cooling? Does the 1080 really benefit from extreme cooling, or is 2.1Ghz (or whatever) really its reasonable limit, even on high-end water, due to being limited by architecture or power draw?

3) When do EVGA, Asus, Gigabyte, etc, expect to ship product with custom cooling solutions? Will they take in more power than a single 8-pin?

It's very difficult for me to imagine any scenario where it isn't an early adopter tax. You got it absolutely right, NV needs to get on top of their messaging here.
 
I'm surprised to hear anyone say a reference card is a good or high-quality design. I always thought they were supposed to be inferior to cards produced by companies like MSI and ASUS because they used an inferior cooler and weren't binned in any way. Also, companies like Foxconn generally aren't known for putting out good quality PCBs.

I assumed the $100 premium was for a chance to get your hands on the card early, not because the product was better than an MSI or ASUS card... if anything, I would have expected it to be inferior.

I really don't know what to think now. If it's actually as good as any other card you can get, it might be worth it.
 
this just seems odd to me. if the reference/founders edition is $699, what is the $599 card? the card with aftermarket cooling, better power and overclocked? i almost feel like the $599 1080 wont exist.
 
1) How does the 1080 vapor chamber blower actually perform in both temps and noise? Is it comparable to a standard 3rd-party cooler like EVGA's ACX?

I cannot comment on that beyond this. They had a Founders Card there running over 2GHz under load that showed a 67C GPU temp. The spec on the cooler is 33dB.

2) NV showed the 1080 hitting only 67F at 2.1Ghz. Does it need extreme cooling? Does the 1080 really benefit from extreme cooling, or is 2.1Ghz (or whatever) really its reasonable limit, even on high-end water, due to being limited by architecture or power draw?

We simply do not know yet. I would suggest that even NVIDIA is blown away by how overclockable the first cards have shown to be. Some good stories behind that, but I will have to discuss at a later date.

3) When do EVGA, Asus, Gigabyte, etc, expect to ship product with custom cooling solutions? Will they take in more power than a single 8-pin?

As usual, AIB solutions will follow the Founders Edition with custom cards fairly quickly; in less than a few weeks if I am correct. Not sure on power supply yet for custom models as I have yet to see one from any AIB.
 
I'm surprised to hear anyone say a reference card is a good or high-quality design. I always thought they were supposed to be inferior to cards produced by companies like MSI and ASUS because they used an inferior cooler and weren't binned in any way. Also, companies like Foxconn generally aren't known for putting out good quality PCBs.
I would suggest very much the opposite. I have had extensively used "reference cards" for personal usage for years and years now. They however are generally focussed on being quiet rather than overclocking.
 
this just seems odd to me. if the reference/founders edition is $699, what is the $599 card? the card with aftermarket cooling, better power and overclocked? i almost feel like the $599 1080 wont exist.
I was wondering that as well, will we see the $599 cards? Is nvidia just deliberately pricing their card high so as not to compete with the board partners? A Falcon Northwest system can eat the extra $100 (and I doubt they pay the full $100 it in the first place).

We'll have to see how it plays out I guess. If the only cards available at launch and for some time are the $699 cards then it's going to feel like an early adopter tax regardless of whether that was the intent.

The performance of the 1080 needs to be properly bench-marked anyways, maybe it's worth $699 at launch, maybe it's not.
 
I have literally been told for years, that NVIDIA either breaks even or loses money on NVTTM/reference cards sold into the market.

I find that difficult to believe, as reference cards are often cheaper than non-reference. I doubt nvidia subsidices the cost for AIB partners, because, you know, its a business.

Also, nvidia doesn't really sell to the end user, with the exception of Titan or 980Ti
 
this just seems odd to me. if the reference/founders edition is $699, what is the $599 card? the card with aftermarket cooling, better power and overclocked? i almost feel like the $599 1080 wont exist.
I have been assured otherwise. But certainly NVIDIA lack of messaging with this leaves some folks thinking exactly as you are. So AIB partners cards are not as good at Founders Edition? AIB cards are not worth the same amount? I specifically told the EVP of NVIDIA Jeff Fisher that its lack of messaging was exactly going to lead to some people having this impression.
 
I find that difficult to believe, as reference cards are often cheaper than non-reference. I doubt nvidia subsidices the cost for AIB partners, because, you know, its a business.
You may find that hard to believe, but I am fairly sure that you guessing that does not trump my direct conversations with AIB partners and NVIDIA executives for literally years about this topic. The message and information about NVTTM costs have always supported exactly what I have said in the article. And I would suggest that yes, some of that is "subsidized" but not exactly handled that way on the balance sheet. Should you have some proof as to otherwise, I would like to see that.

Also, nvidia doesn't really sell to the end user, with the exception of Titan or 980Ti
I am not going to argue that, but I guess NVIDIA is the only one that could actually quantify a "need" to do so.
 
I can see Asus adding a second 8 pin, completely custom cooler, upgraded board layout, etc. Then they tell their customers that they can only sell it at $599 because their engineers aren't as good as Nvidia's reference design. I see $699+ OC Super Edition with minimum speeds of 1800.

Also I consider this to be the Water Cooling Enthusiast's tax as they are the ones that get stuck searching for reference boards when they want to expand their loop with a second or third card. Instead of just having to spend $120 on a water block, now you have to spend that and another $100 extra for a reference board.
 
I think keeping an eye on the MSRP of the 970 is more important. I can EASILY seeing these cards going for ~429 close to launch. This is exremely likely given performance and availability this 'founders edition' is forboading at present.
 
Falcon Northwest's points about it being available for the life of the series and having the SFF friendly cooling makes a lot of sense, and easily justifies the $100 increase, for them.

However, isn't MSRP +$100 usually the range which you'd expect to see binned chips in addition to the power and cooling additions from AIB partners? Seems like the value for standard consumers might not be there, as there is lot of room for the AIB partners to contest on both price and features (perhaps by design).
 
Not sure why anyone would pay an extra arm and a leg for binned chips just to get slightly higher OC's only to have it perform weaker than GTX1080TI's when they come out for probably a similar price.. It's like those people that try to sell/buy original "golden binned chip" titans for $1200 knowing damn well the titan x is already out, you're not pushing the original titan to the point where it would out perform the titan x... it just boggles my mind.
 
I'm surprised to hear anyone say a reference card is a good or high-quality design. I always thought they were supposed to be inferior to cards produced by companies like MSI and ASUS because they used an inferior cooler and weren't binned in any way. Also, companies like Foxconn generally aren't known for putting out good quality PCBs.

I assumed the $100 premium was for a chance to get your hands on the card early, not because the product was better than an MSI or ASUS card... if anything, I would have expected it to be inferior.

I really don't know what to think now. If it's actually as good as any other card you can get, it might be worth it.

The top end custom cards are almost universally superior to reference cards. However, in some cases the original reference design is better than later stage reference-ish designs that sell at a significant discount to the baseline reference card's MSRP. Maybe the PCB is a bit thinner; maybe a power phase is omitted or of lower quality; the cooler might be only slightly quieter but vent far too much air into the case; the later card (like a third revision 5870 I purchased from Sapphire) might be voltage locked; the revised BIOS might be less friendly to overclocking. All of these things are unknowns but on balance the "Founder[']s Edition" cards having such a high early adopter's tax is very much a jerk move.
 
look if a founders edition card can hit 2.1ghz and be more or less reasonably good on the ears then it's a no brainer.
 
You must pay if you want to play. If you want the best you need to be spend more. If you want it before everyone else, you'll spend even more than that. It only gets worse if you want quality guarantees.

(if you think this "tax" is bad, you should see the premiums Ford dealerships are asking on the Focus RS... JEEZE!)
 
look if a founders edition card can hit 2.1ghz and be more or less reasonably good on the ears then it's a no brainer.
Sure. Then a month later, $650 gets you 2.3Ghz and a quieter cooler. That aligns closely with the relationship between reference and third-party solutions in previous generations.

(Not saying that will happen, just that it's what you could predict going by history.)
 
If Nvidia was smart about this, they would have done simply made the price of the Founder's Edition the new MSRP with all the other benefits of it being a Founder's Edition (e.g. guaranteed reference cooler, Nvidia Warranty/RMA, etc.). Then Nvidia would never have been accused of this being Nvidia or Early Adopter Tax. This would have kept the status quo and there wouldn't be as much confusion.
 
This is a new level of milking thought previously unobtainable. Using the power of the GP100, nVidia researches crunched the numbers and discovered a new way to extract money from its loyal customers. Also with 10x the compute GP100 is now the preferred choice for MilkCoin miners. AMD better watch out.
 
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I'm surprised to hear anyone say a reference card is a good or high-quality design. I always thought they were supposed to be inferior to cards produced by companies like MSI and ASUS because they used an inferior cooler and weren't binned in any way. Also, companies like Foxconn generally aren't known for putting out good quality PCBs.

I assumed the $100 premium was for a chance to get your hands on the card early, not because the product was better than an MSI or ASUS card... if anything, I would have expected it to be inferior.

I really don't know what to think now. If it's actually as good as any other card you can get, it might be worth it.

The reference cards can be thought of as OEM parts on a vehicle. They are a bit more expensive, but are usually higher quality with tighter tolerances. They don't always have the performance potential of some of the aftermarket, but that doesn't make it "low quality."
With the reference cards, you are less likely to get a dud. Personally, I go with OEM whenever I can.
 
I prefer reference cards, because the hardcore overclockers and modders focus on them as they're first to market. It also means good info on bios/vmodding/etc. Waterblocks work, aftermarket coolers work etc.

But again, the silence from Nvidia is telling - cash grab $100 price bump for the early adopters who will snap up the reference card at launch. No doubt retailers (especially in AU/NZ) will add another 10-20% on that for launch too.
I did the buy at launch thing once, then learned to wait a month or two for the gouging to settle.. but hey if I was a bazillionaire I probably wouldn't care. That said most bazillionaires don't become one without some fiscal frugality.
 
Sure. Then a month later, $650 gets you 2.3Ghz and a quieter cooler. That aligns closely with the relationship between reference and third-party solutions in previous generations.

(Not saying that will happen, just that it's what you could predict going by history.)

No that totally makes sense.
 
The reference cards can be thought of as OEM parts on a vehicle. They are a bit more expensive, but are usually higher quality with tighter tolerances. They don't always have the performance potential of some of the aftermarket, but that doesn't make it "low quality."
With the reference cards, you are less likely to get a dud. Personally, I go with OEM whenever I can.

makes sense, but....

when do you pay 17% over msrp for an oem part? you buy oem part for msrp.
 
Nah, I really can't pay $700 for a 1080 card, when Ti cards haven been $650 over the last two generations.
I'll buy at launch for $599, but if no cards are available then I'll wait until ASUS releases the STRIX.
 
When is msrp not a msrp?

If a manufacturer does not respect their own msrp and they are the only way to acquire their card for a set period of time, I can't see it any other way than a money grab.

I can see nvidia pricing themselves higher so as not to undercut their AIBs, but not when it's the only way to buy them?!
 
What happens if we want to go SLI and buy 2 Founder's Edition 1080s? Do we have to buy the custom Nvidia SLI bridge as well? Are AIBs going to include this new bridge? I'm guessing if the attendees were handed 2 cards, they were given a SLI bridge as well...
 
Nay for me. If people are willing to buy it and a market for it. From a business standpoint I'm sure it will make the shareholders happy. From my standpoint it's a bit evil.
 
I'm sure I won't buy the Founder's Edition, but I there's nothing in my being saying this is wrong. Nvidia's coming out with a new card, which ALWAYS, encounters shortages and price gouging. You're paying a premium to have it first, and possibly, with better PCB components. Furthermore, you're buying something that nobody is forcing you to buy. This is an optional, first world, problem. I could care less if they changed $500,000. Because I'm likely buying the $599 card when it's available and when the prices level off. This is another option for people that can afford it and believe they need it.
 
It's brilliant really, they have two versions of the same gpu, they can advertise the performance of the higher binned cards with the cheaper price of the rest.
 
It's brilliant really, they have two versions of the same gpu, they can advertise the performance of the higher binned cards with the cheaper price of the rest.
Please read the article. Founders Edition cards are not binned. They are reference cards that cost an extra $100 because you can buy them before the end of June. That's it.

I have no problem paying the extra $100 if I get something substantial out of it. It isn't the money that turns me off, it's the knowledge that I'm paying an extra $100 to get it a month early. I picture my grandmother in my head calling me a sucker.

Really sucks that NV is doing this. Puts a bad taste in my mouth.
 
I'm curious where in June the non reference cards will launch. The founders are shipping may 27th which is practically june anyway. Didn't seem like a crazy wait for the non reference cards
 
Please read the article. Founders Edition cards are not binned. They are reference cards that cost an extra $100 because you can buy them before the end of June. That's it.

I have no problem paying the extra $100 if I get something substantial out of it. It isn't the money that turns me off, it's the knowledge that I'm paying an extra $100 to get it a month early. I picture my grandmother in my head calling me a sucker.

Really sucks that NV is doing this. Puts a bad taste in my mouth.

Well you don't have to buy it, you can wait for AIB cards which honestly will not be far behind. As with most things in life, if you are opposed to it, vote with your wallet.
 
Yes, that's a very good question. Hopefully Kyle/etc are already talking to all their contacts. This is what we users care about-- how long we have to wait to skip that despicable early adopter tax.

Edit: Completely agree, and I plan to do exactly that.
 
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