NVIDIA Competing Against Partners a Good Thing - Sure

FrgMstr

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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HardOCP broke the story of NVIDIA moving into the retail video card market back in 2010. Since then, NVIDIA has gone on to move more into the retail market with it Founders Edition cards, and that certainly has gotten a lot of attention last year with the Pascal launch. A couple days ago, Digitimes reported that brisk sales of Founders Edition cards was going to impact NVIDIA partners, which is very likely true. This Seeking Alpha editorial just came through my box and it seemed to round out the week's NVDIA discussion, however Motek Moyen is arguing that NVIDIA competing with its partners will help improve designs. Now considering that Moyen references "Ryzen GPU chips" in his analysis, you have to wonder if he knows WTF he is talking about. So....come on Vega and Volta!


Gaff aside, the likes of ASUS, GIGABYTE, and MSI have not exactly been sitting around with a thumb up their collective butts when it comes to excellent in-house video card design for years and years now. So all in all, I don't think Moyen knows what he is actually talking about, at least as far as his headline goes. Founders Edition cards sales in no way push better designs from NVDIA partners, as the FE cards sell in a more front-loaded fashion anyway. ASUS, GIGABYTE, and MSI need to just keep on doing what they have been doing.

Cool Pascal video to cool me down.
 
Vega or bust!

Fuck nvidia and their monopolistic crap.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never really cared all that much regarding the designs of the graphics cards from 3rd parties. Nvidia's FE cards look sexy as hell, but really it comes down to functionality > aesthetics. My FE card runs great but hot, so the looks thing isn't really helping me out. I typically buy EVGA for their (so far in my experience) awesome upgrade and warranty programs.
 
I would never consider an FE edition... why buy the slowest and hottest version of a card for the most expensive price? OEMs are eating them up for some reason though. I guess the biggest question is are sales to individuals enough to keep all these card companies afloat or do they absolutely need the OEM business?
 
Cobra said:
I would never consider an FE edition... why buy the slowest and hottest version of a card for the most expensive price?
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Some people actually need the blower design and looks like OEM are not interested in offering such models.

Also, I think I read somewhere that Nvidia is using the best binned parts for themselves. But take that with a big grain of salt.

Cobra said:
I guess the biggest question is are sales to individuals enough to keep all these card companies afloat or do they absolutely need the OEM business?
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In all seriousness, Nvidia always try the lock down method (gameworks, locking down physx at the driver level if another card is detected, etc), so I would not be surprised if this is a long test from them to see how much their loyal customers will do for them.

Also, note that companies that worked with them in the past, left in a hurry and never went back to them (Sony with PS3, MS with original Xbox, Apple with MacBooks, etc), so again, not surprising them trying to screw another partner.
 
They have all new partners to screw over with their machine learning avenue. Stay away from us gamers.
 
I'm enjoying my EVGA 1080. Running stock with no tweaks, it boosts to 1975 MHz and holds, runs quiet and cool, looks awesome (not that the LEDs had any bearing on my purchase decision) and was $50 less than an FE with an additional $20 rebate to boot. From a consumer's perspective, unless you need a blower, the Founder's Edition simply can't compete at all with the AIB offerings.

Of course, OEMs have other requirements, for which the Founder's Edition makes sense for them, but they're not paying retail anyways.
 
To me, the biggest problem with this - at least at launch - was that Nvidia was seemingly binning the best chips for themselves, and selling the rest to board partners, resulting in worse overclocks on mega-custom-cooler cards than on FE cards.

I don't know if this is still the case, as I have not paid attention in a while, but at least at launch, if you wanted to hit 2100Mhz, it was FE or bust.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
To me, the biggest problem with this - at least at launch - was that Nvidia was seemingly binning the best chips for themselves, and selling the rest to board partners, resulting in worse overclocks on mega-custom-cooler cards than on FE cards.

I don't know if this is still the case, as I have not paid attention in a while, but at least at launch, if you wanted to hit 2100Mhz, it was FE or bust.
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I can't fathom Nvidia doing that. Not like them at all.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
To me, the biggest problem with this - at least at launch - was that Nvidia was seemingly binning the best chips for themselves, and selling the rest to board partners, resulting in worse overclocks on mega-custom-cooler cards than on FE cards.

I don't know if this is still the case, as I have not paid attention in a while, but at least at launch, if you wanted to hit 2100Mhz, it was FE or bust.
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Its more about the upper limit of the chip and quality of the FE. Its the exact same thing today as it was at launch.

Lets be honest, 117 phases and custom PCB doesn't matter if it doesn't add anything aka the reference is of high quality to begin with. The biggest change is the custom coolers.
 
Out of curiosity I've been out of the "advertising performance loop", does nVidia really push the oc culture? Not talking like boost 3.0 but just OC gamer cards like the third parties and stuff. I always felt like Nvidia sales approach was more like "it works and it's directly from us" and appeals more to the people who don't want to deal with third party shit. I never felt like they ever advertised overclocking gaming cards. Kinda like how Intel was for a long while before they pushed the k chips.

Point being I feel like nVidia selling cards is like Toyota selling cars. It's not their TRD division, but just straight Toyota right now.
 
vegeta535 said:
I'm all for competition but it isn't Nvidia's fault AMD can't produce. There is no participations trophy in the business world. AMD would be doing the exact samething if the roles were reversed. Companies will always sell at the highest price possible.
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Oh, i agree on that, hell, i have a gtx970 because AMD didnt have anything that i could buy.

But i dont like nvidia bs just because they have a monopoly and thats why i am hoping for vega to be good enough for me to replace my 970.
 
grtitan said:
Vega or bust!

Fuck nvidia and their monopolistic crap.
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Funny enough since I ditched my Xfire 290's and went to a 1070, my gaming experience has been much smoother, quieter, and faster with so many fewer issues via software as well.

I generally have no loyalty either way - but nvidia actually cranks out chips we can buy. Vega is coming out sure, but we've been hearing that for so long it's it's lost it's appeal to me. Plus, after experiencing G-sync in real life... holy crap it's amazing. I'm more than happy to pay a little bit of money for a smooth/easy experience.

nvidia makes a one of a kind product that people want, they should (and can) charge a price people are willing to pay. That's how a free market system works. AMD is free any time to put out something better nothing is stopping them.
 
Pieter3dnow said:
Well it is something that you were pretty vocal about it being messy that extra money was showing what was behind Nvidia doing the Founders Edition.
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You might go back and read exactly what is written because you obviously do not understand what I have written. What Moyen is saying and what I have commented on are not even related.
 
grtitan said:
Some people actually need the blower design and looks like OEM are not interested in offering such models.
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Then you buy Nvidia. Honestly, if you want a reference design, does it matter which version you buy? I'd probably buy Asus, because those Strix cards are quiet. I wouldn't buy a blower, because they're noisy as fuck under load.
 
I don't understand why some people are hateful of the NVIDIA FE card. It offers variety and competition and is thus a good thing.

It doesn't directly compete with AIB cards because:

* It uses magnesium covers for premium looks
* It uses high-efficiency voltage regulators
* It is clocked conservatively
* It is more expensive
* It is a blower design done well
* It has a front and back plate for cooling practically all heat generating sources on the board

So in all, it is more of a niche luxury product that doesn't offer the best performance, but is impeccable in design and efficiency. For me it is the prettiest cart out there and that's why I got it. Yes, I am vain and can afford it :p. I commend NVIDIA on their industrial design.

Some people complain the card gets hot - that is non-sense, it just keeps the target temperature. If the fan spun faster, it will keep the card cooler. It is not the most quiet, but it is quiet enough, to the point that I do not hear it at any practical use case. (who would play games with the sound off?)

You don't like it, then don't buy it, but respect that you have the choice. I'd have got the MSI if the FE didn't exist.
 
grtitan said:
Vega or bust!

Fuck nvidia and their monopolistic crap.
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Yes god forbid NVIDIA release the best performing, reliable product and ask money back in return with no competition to speak of.

The FE cards have their place, they go well in servers, workstations etc where they may not have the best thermals and exhaust heat out of the case. Not to mention proper ball bearing high quality fans rather than the cheap sleeve bearing shit that Gigabyte and the like keep getting away with using.
 
I really didn't have a large problem with the FE cards. It seemed a little problematic that FE cards were launched first giving Nvidia a lot of the "launch day" money so to speak... but then again there are tangible benefits to the channel also. If Nvidia wants to push radical design changes they will directly take the punishment for early returns and RMA issues which could be significant with as complex as these cards are becoming. Since several vendors were selling FE cards they still all conform to a pretty tight spec. This keeps the initial launch based around the reference design minimizing issues right out of the gate and preventing the entire image of Nvidia's chip getting trashed by a single partner who didn't do a 3rd party design correctly.

Perhaps it would be better to get some off the record comments from big partners before assuming we know the real inside story?

The whole 1000 series seems like it was a wildly successful venture for everyone involved.
 
Has nothing to do with any of that. The reason the FE cards were available at launch was simply because it was a full NVIDIA product where they designed it from start to finish with premium components alongside the GPU. AIB's needed time to produce 3rd party designs so they were delayed. They don't want to release products early to them because then information leaks.

Reference cards made by NVIDIA, like it or not, are better engineered cards with higher quality components built for reliability but not overclocking. When an AIB gets their hands on a card, they try to work out where they can cut costs with cheaper components and fit RGB lighting, put on some extra power phases and push it out the door. I wish just one company would produce a robust, bland card with no marketing wank.
 
Well that was one of 3dfx downfalls taking over all the video card builds when they bought STB which ended up being mismanaged, lack of competition killing the AIB partners who each would promote and try to beat each other out by innovating etc. Of course other issues cause their downfall as well. I don't see Nvidia going that route in not having partners and being the only builder. They are filling a market need for a consistent build quality - longer term use setup. Even my two Gigabyte 1070 G1's are different and that was less then 6 months apart. So the FE higher component or more exactly consistent build is good I think. The added expense for something not really affecting the performance as the odd looking (which will most likely look very ugly over time) cooler and charging an extra $100 I do not like but that does solve the problem for the AIBs since they can out price the FE's, give better performance and not worry about long term commitments but then again loosing OEM sales is probably not good either for them. Plus Nvidia does lock out the high end Titans and above cards - so will this new step make the AIBs move more towards AMD? Maybe if AMD has anything good.
 
No pro-AMD author or commentator on seeking alpha has a lick of common sense. Any article that points out AMD severe financial problems gets 200 posts in the first 20 minutes blasting the author personally. I must confess that I'm rooting for another AMD letdown just so those people can eat their vitriolic words.
 
Nvidia isn't taking over the market. Its funny we even have this discussion considering AMD does EXACTLY the same. Reference cards tends to come first for practical reasons. Hence the point of reference cards. And it took how long, 1-2 weeks before the first non FE cards came on sale?
 
Pieter3dnow said:
Well it is something that you were pretty vocal about it being messy that extra money was showing what was behind Nvidia doing the Founders Edition.


Those cards are 3 years old now ? That it would cause fewer issues is not surprising since crossfire was not always supported. My R9 290x is still working well here.
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I went from xfire 290x to 980ti about 16 months ago, and I've had the same experience. There were games that went from 30 to 70+ fps. Of course a few games and the benchmarks show a very different picture, but I'm not playing benchmarks. I want all games I throw at it to perform well. So having the raw power is not enough. It wasn't enough even when AMD had the raw power. Now I'm not even sure they have that anymore.
 
I don't really get how the FE cards made a dent in the AIB partners profits. They are priced high for what they are and I think 95% of people buying them FE cards are those who are going all in with custom water loops and what not.

It is probably my problem but I can't really imagine someone going out and buying a GTX 1080 FE for a 10% price premium (at least here in Hungary) for non water cooling purposes over per se an MSI GTX 1080 Gaming variant that has better cooling and operates much quieter.
 
sutyi said:
I don't really get how the FE cards made a dent in the AIB partners profits. They are priced high for what they are and I think 95% of people buying them FE cards are those who are going all in with custom water loops and what not.

It is probably my problem but I can't really imagine someone going out and buying a GTX 1080 FE for a 10% price premium (at least here in Hungary) for non water cooling purposes over per se an MSI GTX 1080 Gaming variant that has better cooling and operates much quieter.
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I think you're very wrong on that. 95% of people who purchased FE were the fanboys who couldn't wait that extra two weeks for the other cards. Just like the apple fanboys camping in line for the next iphone overnight.
In Hungary your statement could stand, since you have to be very rich, or a fanatic to buy a card that expensive, so then you might go the extra mile, but that's such a small market that nvidia doesn't give a damn about it. On a global scale I'm not convinced that even 5% of FE cards got custom cooling attached to them.
 
I got the FE because its the best blower design for my ITX.
 
When you have no competition you get to do stupid shit and people have to deal with it.

If anyone comes along that matches (or perhaps bests) nVidia in performance, they will come to regret their actions. Companies actually do remember slights very well and everything gets filed for future negotiations. In the mean time there's jack shit anyone can do about it, nVidia is just too far ahead.

A woman I knew when I was a kid would have called this "sowing the seeds of regret".
 
ATi back in the day used to make their own cards so this is really nothing new...
 
aokman said:
Has nothing to do with any of that. The reason the FE cards were available at launch was simply because it was a full NVIDIA product where they designed it from start to finish with premium components alongside the GPU. AIB's needed time to produce 3rd party designs so they were delayed. They don't want to release products early to them because then information leaks.

Reference cards made by NVIDIA, like it or not, are better engineered cards with higher quality components built for reliability but not overclocking. When an AIB gets their hands on a card, they try to work out where they can cut costs with cheaper components and fit RGB lighting, put on some extra power phases and push it out the door. I wish just one company would produce a robust, bland card with no marketing wank.
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Serious question: How important is reliability/components if you're not OCing? I ask, because in 25 years I've never had a single graphics card die. I actually don't know anyone that's had a GPU die. I've still got an X800 XL that I use occasionally (the only reason I took it out of full time use in a server is it guzzles power). My Dad's machine has a graphics card that's roughly 10 years old and is in it's 2nd or 3rd build (and I'll probably reuse it when i build his next one this year).
 
WorldExclusive said:
Slowest and hottest?
Not owning one has skewed your reality.
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More like owning one has skewed yours, since you have to justify to yourself having the slowest stock clocks and one of the worst cooling solutions that you paid too much money for.
 
nilepez said:
Serious question: How important is reliability/components if you're not OCing? I ask, because in 25 years I've never had a single graphics card die. I actually don't know anyone that's had a GPU die. I've still got an X800 XL that I use occasionally (the only reason I took it out of full time use in a server is it guzzles power). My Dad's machine has a graphics card that's roughly 10 years old and is in it's 2nd or 3rd build (and I'll probably reuse it when i build his next one this year).
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Cards that fail generally do so regardless of overclocking. You may not have had any failures but plenty of people do. Not to mention so many cards with noisy fans that dry up and seize.
 
jwcalla said:
It'd be nice if "partners" created a video card with a blower fan that didn't completely suck.

Not all of us can handle the 10-slot wide triple-fan super-RGB coolers.
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I wish AiBs would design high end blower cards just because some of us like small form-factor pcs that don't like it when a gpu exhausts right into the small case.
 
Founders Editions aren't good for consumers. They just raise prices and nothing more. Also Nvidia gets to cash in before their partners do.
 
nilepez said:
Serious question: How important is reliability/components if you're not OCing? I ask, because in 25 years I've never had a single graphics card die. I actually don't know anyone that's had a GPU die. I've still got an X800 XL that I use occasionally (the only reason I took it out of full time use in a server is it guzzles power). My Dad's machine has a graphics card that's roughly 10 years old and is in it's 2nd or 3rd build (and I'll probably reuse it when i build his next one this year).
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Honestly when it comes to computer hardware that has no movable parts are very solid. I been building computers for over 20 years and only had one video card go up in flames and one stick of memory that was DoA. The video card was a MSI 780 that had components on the back catch fire. It's why I don't care much about warranties when I buy hardware. I either retire it or it is worthless before it dies.
 
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