NVIDIA Announces Deep Learning Super-Sampling Support for Nine New Titles

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    The list of games supporting NVIDIA’s Deep Learning Super-Sampling (DLSS) has officially grown from 16 to 25: joining Final Fantasy XV, Hitman 2, and Shadow of the Tomb Raider will be other popular titles such as Darksiders III, Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice, and SCUM. Early impressions suggest NVIDIA’s new anti-aliasing method manages to better retain both sharpness and performance compared to classic options such as TAA.

    If you’re unfamiliar with DLSS, this new RTX technology uses the power of deep learning and AI to train the GPU to render crisp images, while running up to 2x faster than previous generation GPUs using conventional anti-aliasing techniques. You’ll be hearing much more about DLSS, NVIDIA RTX Ray Tracing, and the other features of GeForce RTX graphics cards in the coming weeks, so stay tuned to GeForce.com and your favorite hardware sites and channels.
     
  2. Galvin

    Galvin 2[H]4U

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    Wonder if its faster than regular AA
     
  3. Trepidati0n

    Trepidati0n [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Define "regular AA" since that hasn't be used in any way shape or form for years (e.g. before Y2K). Are you talking about MSAA, CSAA, TXAA, MLAA, EQAA, or SSAA?

    If you do a bit of searching you can find comparisons to other methods and DLSS seems to win every time by providing as a good a result with the least performance loss compared to the others.
     
  4. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    If this crap has to be game specific and can't be done at the driver level, who cares. It's more PhysX / Gameworks type stuff that will look neat in a handful of titles then get forgotten.
     
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  5. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's kind of irrelevant in a way, because it typically boils down like this:

    -FXAA / MLAA = can use on anything, won't stop shimmering and worst artifacts of aliasing, very fast
    -Downsampling (basically SSAA) = works on anything, best quality, very slow
    -Whatever the game supports = you take what you get (often nothing)

    If you try and force something like MSAA or Mixed mode MSAA + SSAA on a modern title, it will ignore your settings. It's been that way ever since DX10+ and for many DX9 titles also. For older ones you can actually force settings.
     
  6. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

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    From my understanding, DLSS requires very little developer work. The cost is free so all they have to do is send their code in to Nvidia and they take care of the rest. Seems to me this is the case as more and more devs are taking advantage of it. Remember this is FREE.
     
  7. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    I know some will scream "Gameworks!" at this like it's the end of the world, but hell, I like my games running smoothly and developers are working with Nvidia to make that happen.

    Now, I hope that this code doesn't affect AMD GPUs, and I don't think it will as this stuff usually does since it's all implemented within DirectX, but this won't stop the detractors ;).
     
  8. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    My point is the fact that it's game specific means this is likely to fall by the wayside as time goes on. Here's the difference:

    TXAA, TAA = Requires game to support it. Only applied to a handful of titles, then has largely fallen by the wayside and may be forgotten entirely in time.
    Dynamic Super Resolution = Works on ANY title that supports high resolutions. Applies to thousands of titles. Essentially mainstreamed downsampling and made it more compatible.

    The fact that the game needs to support it puts in the same camp as TXAA and TAA the way I see it. I'd much rather see global solutions. Sure, it's the hot new thing now, but in 5 years, we'll see how many titles it still applies to.
     
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  9. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    Well, we need it now, and it's here now- in five years we may not need it.

    Of course, in five years I hope 4k60 is old hat. It's a really low bar versus what's actually needed and that's enough to push 4k to two eyes each at 120Hz.

    And do notice that I said Herts and not FPS: I'm talking maximum frametimes under 8.3ms period for VR, synced to the headset with no stuttering or output lag (like v-sync imparts).
     
  10. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is my point exactly. You're talking about VR. Out of that list, does DLSS support any VR titles? I could have missed one, but I didn't see any. DSR would support all of them. DLSS currently doesn't help VR at all. This is exactly why per-game solutions are just temporary gimmicks.
     
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  11. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    AFAIK DLSS is done entirely on nvidia driver. No code changes to te game at all. What developer/publisher did was send their entire game to nvidia and nvidia will use the game to so they can train the "profile" using AI. This profile will then be distributed via GFE per game basis (similar to game auto optimization profile) so nvidia did not have to include every trained profile in driver package.
     
  12. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    Most of the titles listed are still on their way- and VR gets better every iteration, as it should. I don't see why it couldn't be used for VR, or even wouldn't be a perfect fit. You need speed above all else with VR, so why not?
     
  13. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Sure, but you're still relying on developers that take the initiative to send it to Nvidia, maybe there are some other hoops to jump through, we don't know. Again, how many titles use TXAA or TAA. Wouldn't those be other "why not" scenarios that sputtered and mostly died?
     
  14. Lith1um

    Lith1um 2[H]4U

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    "Deep Learning Super-Sampling"

    Sounds like a government surveillance program.
     
  15. BSmith

    BSmith [H]ard|Gawd

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    Not exactly. NVidia paid a several developers to bring support to that and its new render method, otherwise it would have been ignored.
     
  16. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    Still just up-scaling no matter how you slice it. Maybe it's good up-scaling, but it can never substitute pixels never actually rendered. Traditional AA at least does a good estimation at blurring edges with the surrounding pixels, Shader based AA outside of SMAA seem to just blur everything, and TAA blurs everything across frames. SSAA/down-sampling will always win at accuracy as it is using real data not interpolated data.

    I'd love to see side by side comparisons of 4xSSAA and DLSS and an image in Photoshop/gimp of the same frame with both using the negative overlay to see the actual tangible difference. If the delta number of pixels different is low enough this will be a win. However if it just blurs everything or the delta is high this will be just as bad as TV frame interpolation guessing pixels.
     
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  17. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    Pretty sure Nvidia has a strong outreach program. They do a damn good job getting optimizations in on the developer side as well as optimizing on the driver side. This is something perhaps a bit less tangible that I appreciate.
     
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  18. jnemesh

    jnemesh Gawd

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    OOOH! NEAT! Now we have, what? 20 games that support it? Out of the literally THOUSANDS available? Good job guys! I am SURE this will win the war for you!
     
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  19. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    War for who?

    I just want my games to run smoothly. If all of the graphically intensive games coming out support DLSS, that's a win for me.
     
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  20. katanaD

    katanaD [H]ard|Gawd

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    lots of talk.. we need hardware to play around with
     
  21. andrewaggb

    andrewaggb Limp Gawd

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    well I guess it depends if it's truly per game or if it can be per game engine. If it's per game, does nvidia provide the tooling to let developers train it themselves?
     
  22. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

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    Proof?
     
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  23. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Exactly, implement global solutions or just don't bother. We need more changes like FXAA or DSR that keep on giving, not gimmicky one-offs that support a couple dozen titles then retire.
     
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  24. BSmith

    BSmith [H]ard|Gawd

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    Other than I know a few people who work at a couple of the developers who got paid to provide support, that is the best I can do. Not going to mention their names, or the names of the developers as I am not really interested in them getting in trouble for saying something they probably should have kept to themselves.

    This is not the first time a video card company paid for support, and it will not be the last time. It is simple seed money to insure something they have, which is proprietary, gets support in a timely manner.
     
  25. umeng2002

    umeng2002 Gawd

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    Probably not very "deep" at all.

    It's just more "intelligent" up-scaling.