NTSB Revokes Tesla’s Party Status

rgMekanic

[H]ard|News
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,910
In a news release today, the NTSB has announced removal of Tesla as a party to the NTSB's investigation of the March 23 fatal crash of a 2017 Tesla Model X near Mountain View, California. The decision comes after the NTSB says Tesla violated the party agreement by releasing investigative information before it was vetted by the NTSB.

NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt states in the release:

"It is unfortunate that Tesla, by its actions, did not abide by the party agreement," said NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt. “We decided to revoke Tesla's party status and informed Mr. Musk in a phone call last evening and via letter today. While we understand the demand for information that parties face during an NTSB investigation, uncoordinated releases of incomplete information do not further transportation safety or serve the public interest."

In a classic "you can't fire me, I quit!" style move, Tesla told CNBC that it withdrew from the NTSB investigation. In a statement on Tuesday, Tesla said:

"Last week, in a conversation with the NTSB, we were told that if we made additional statements before their 12-24 month investigative process is complete, we would no longer be a party to the investigation agreement. On Tuesday, we chose to withdraw from the agreement and issued a statement to correct misleading claims that had been made about Autopilot — claims which made it seem as though Autopilot creates safety problems when the opposite is true."

Personally I wish Tesla would admit that their "Autopilot" system, is poorly named, and in my opinion, is not advanced enough for use yet. As we saw earlier this month, when another Tesla driver nearly recreated the fatal crash from March. Thanks to cageymaru for the story.
 

thecold

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Messages
1,205
It's not surprising. They want to release their own spin. Loosing momentum could cost them big.
 

viper1152012

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Messages
1,025
Because of the surcumstances I would side with tesle 100%

I would rather the driver be exposed for not paying attention in a situation he was fully aware of autopilot failure than have tesla dragged through the mud fow 12-24 months of PR slander
 

IRSmurf

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
2,312
So much stupidity in this case. The victim's wife told the media her husband was aware of autopilots shortcomings. He was even aware that autopilot could not handle the obstacle that killed him. That is certainly going to hamper for case against Tesla, whom she is in the process of suing. The victim was either unacceptably distracted while operating a vehicle or intentionally allow the crash to happen. Judging by his occupation alone, it seems like he had sufficient intellect to have known better. And Tesla is shooting their mouth off like a scared teenager, without regard for long term consequences. And then to top it all off, this appears to be a poorly designed junction. It had recently been subjected to another crash, which eliminated the safety barrier around the concrete, which likely contributed to the victim's demise.

What a cluster fuck.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
So much stupidity in this case. The victim's wife told the media her husband was aware of autopilots shortcomings. He was even aware that autopilot could not handle the obstacle that killed him. That is certainly going to hamper for case against Tesla, whom she is in the process of suing. The victim was either unacceptably distracted while operating a vehicle or intentionally allow the crash to happen. Judging by his occupation alone, it seems like he had sufficient intellect to have known better. And Tesla is shooting their mouth off like a scared teenager, without regard for long term consequences. And then to top it all off, this appears to be a poorly designed junction. It had recently been subjected to another crash, which eliminated the safety barrier around the concrete, which likely contributed to the victim's demise.

What a cluster fuck.
I do think the wife also needs to sue the city/highway management people, for failing to fix the barrier in a timely fashion, and properly mark the pavement.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005

Yes, we saw this in the other thread and dissected it ad nauseum.

It's simple: the car follows the lines. When the lane split line goes away, the chevrons are nearly gone, the car follows the other line.

That, right there, puts some blame on highway maintenance, for not fixing the barrier sooner, and not maintaining the paint at such a juncture. The rest of the blame lays with the driver not paying attention.
 

ol1bit

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
1,242
I think Telsa does very well. It's not a jump in the back seat type of auto-pilot. Heck even Uber's super system killed someone in my home town and shouldn't have. I agree that the state should be partially at fault, I wonder how long the barrier was broken?
 

EricVB

n00b
Joined
Jun 12, 2016
Messages
26
Does anyone know what the TOS for the autopilot are? My guess is you have to Enable/Opt In and a warning comes up. Seems to me if you do not follow that warning the driver is at fault. Either way seems the name should not be Auto Pilot (yet). Should be Drive Assistance for version 1.0 then when its at version 2.0 (fully autonomous) it should be renamed to Auto Pilot. Also, the Cities need to make sure lanes are marked and fix barriers / maybe somehow Tesla should allow a city to report something like that barrier and it should alert the driver and turn off auto pilot.
 

Krazy925

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 29, 2012
Messages
6,504
I do think the wife also needs to sue the city/highway management people, for failing to fix the barrier in a timely fashion, and properly mark the pavement.
Every time some retard runs into a barrier doesn’t require an emergency CalTrans visit.

Guy would still be alive if he wasn’t literally retarded.
 

Unter Dog

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 12, 2016
Messages
136
Unfortunately most things need to be built/named for the biggest idiot you can come up with cause people be stupid and corporate pockets are deep.
 

Slade

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
2,819
I don't think there has been enough to dissuade the concept of "autopilot" as a self driving car. The fanboys and Tesla are to blame in this.



I think Tesla needs to drop the Autopilot moniker, its a poor name to use with implications to the contrary of how it should be used. I think all example videos like above need to be removed and Tesla to market it correctly for what it is, which is not a "self driving car". The video above is still available for viewing from Tesla's website.
 

DFranch

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Messages
65
I don't really blame Tesla for not waiting for the NTSB to file a report. They are at a tipping point. Many investors are saying they are on the brink of going under, and waiting 3+ months for clarification on this accident along with the fatality by the Uber car is not publicity they need.
 

Verge

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 27, 2001
Messages
7,272
I don't think there has been enough to dissuade the concept of "autopilot" as a self driving car. The fanboys and Tesla are to blame in this.



I think Tesla needs to drop the Autopilot moniker, its a poor name to use with implications to the contrary of how it should be used. I think all example videos like above need to be removed and Tesla to market it correctly for what it is, which is not a "self driving car". The video above is still available for viewing from Tesla's website.


Should be fined and ticketed. There's ample video evidence. NTSB didn't really do enough to curb TSLA's ambitious naming.
 
D

Deleted member 184142

Guest
Does anyone know what the TOS for the autopilot are? My guess is you have to Enable/Opt In and a warning comes up. Seems to me if you do not follow that warning the driver is at fault. Either way seems the name should not be Auto Pilot (yet). Should be Drive Assistance for version 1.0 then when its at version 2.0 (fully autonomous) it should be renamed to Auto Pilot. Also, the Cities need to make sure lanes are marked and fix barriers / maybe somehow Tesla should allow a city to report something like that barrier and it should alert the driver and turn off auto pilot.

Autopilot is totally acceptable name. People ASSUME what it means, however even in planes Autopilot does NOT mean autonomous flying, It is a means of letting the pilot keep an eye on the host of other systems and weather rather than small navigation adjustments, and planes are in the air and do not have to deal with a fraction of issues and obstacles cars do, most systems in cars are actually MORE capable than a planes.

As for agreements and warnings, they are all over for the system, which is still in Beta BTW. When you buy a Tesla with this system, you have to sign paperwork that states its uses and what is not to be done with it, that almost every case of a crash, these people were doing exactly what they were told not to do. And when you turn on the system in the car, it seriously spells out everything for you.

MR035ot.png
 

katanaD

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
1,987
Autopilot is totally acceptable name. People ASSUME what it means, however even in planes Autopilot does NOT mean autonomous flying, It is a means of letting the pilot keep an eye on the host of other systems and weather rather than small navigation adjustments, and planes are in the air and do not have to deal with a fraction of issues and obstacles cars do, most systems in cars are actually MORE capable than a planes.

As for agreements and warnings, they are all over for the system, which is still in Beta BTW. When you buy a Tesla with this system, you have to sign paperwork that states its uses and what is not to be done with it, that almost every case of a crash, these people were doing exactly what they were told not to do. And when you turn on the system in the car, it seriously spells out everything for you.

View attachment 66452


interesting, is that on screen within the car itself?
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
794
finally, in plain language.
Autopilot is totally acceptable name. People ASSUME what it means, however even in planes Autopilot does NOT mean autonomous flying, It is a means of letting the pilot keep an eye on the host of other systems and weather rather than small navigation adjustments, and planes are in the air and do not have to deal with a fraction of issues and obstacles cars do, most systems in cars are actually MORE capable than a planes.

As for agreements and warnings, they are all over for the system, which is still in Beta BTW. When you buy a Tesla with this system, you have to sign paperwork that states its uses and what is not to be done with it, that almost every case of a crash, these people were doing exactly what they were told not to do. And when you turn on the system in the car, it seriously spells out everything for you.

View attachment 66452

since when do airline pilots get trained as much as everyday drivers...

and Tesla only got away with dangerous mislabeling because they have a strong lobby and congress is very weak against tech (cause old geezer congressman and senators have tech advisors whom are in the pockets of these lobbies). Just try do this stunt labeling in pharma, and see where that ends you up at

everything 'auto' should be corrected to 'assisted'

in the context of automobiles, auto is directly and instantly identified with automatic gearing. Tesla exploiting this for marketing purposes should not be allowed.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
I think Telsa does very well. It's not a jump in the back seat type of auto-pilot. Heck even Uber's super system killed someone in my home town and shouldn't have. I agree that the state should be partially at fault, I wonder how long the barrier was broken?
There's a barrier near here where a pickup rammed it (pretty much identical to the one in the vid) head-on. Truck was fubared, but the passengers survived.

That was 6 weeks ago, and NO ONE had even been out to clear the carnage left of the railing.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
Should be fined and ticketed. There's ample video evidence. NTSB didn't really do enough to curb TSLA's ambitious naming.
Not the NTSB's place to enforce deceptive advertising.

That belongs to the... wait, uh, what's the name of that department?? Oh, yeah: "Federal Trade Commision"?? No?? okay... FCC?? Nope... "Consumer Affairs Protection Division"?? Sounds right, but they've been so thoroughly gutted over the last year, they only have a janitor and an old guy in thick glasses sitting in the basement with his stapler...
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
Autopilot is totally acceptable name. People ASSUME what it means, however even in planes Autopilot does NOT mean autonomous flying, It is a means of letting the pilot keep an eye on the host of other systems and weather rather than small navigation adjustments, and planes are in the air and do not have to deal with a fraction of issues and obstacles cars do, most systems in cars are actually MORE capable than a planes.

As for agreements and warnings, they are all over for the system, which is still in Beta BTW. When you buy a Tesla with this system, you have to sign paperwork that states its uses and what is not to be done with it, that almost every case of a crash, these people were doing exactly what they were told not to do. And when you turn on the system in the car, it seriously spells out everything for you.

View attachment 66452
So it's not even called "Autopilot" at all, but "AutoSteer".... How interesting...
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
finally, in plain language.


since when do airline pilots get trained as much as everyday drivers...

and Tesla only got away with dangerous mislabeling because they have a strong lobby and congress is very weak against tech (cause old geezer congressman and senators have tech advisors whom are in the pockets of these lobbies). Just try do this stunt labeling in pharma, and see where that ends you up at

everything 'auto' should be corrected to 'assisted'

in the context of automobiles, auto is directly and instantly identified with automatic gearing. Tesla exploiting this for marketing purposes should not be allowed.
In case you haven't figured it out, "Truth In Advertising" laws have been getting gutted/removed since the Reagan years.
 

Verge

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 27, 2001
Messages
7,272
Not the NTSB's place to enforce deceptive advertising.

That belongs to the... wait, uh, what's the name of that department?? Oh, yeah: "Federal Trade Commision"?? No?? okay... FCC?? Nope... "Consumer Affairs Protection Division"?? Sounds right, but they've been so thoroughly gutted over the last year, they only have a janitor and an old guy in thick glasses sitting in the basement with his stapler...


No the act of computer controlling a car on public highways, i believe this video was done before regulations were in place. Similar to what they did to the company that was auto-hauling beer... "you did what?? i don't think so."
 

Biznatch

2[H]4U
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
2,224
It has nothing to do with the name of the system. Dumb people did this with cruise control when it came out thinking it would drive for them..... Any cruise control doesn't spam you with warnings and require you to approve to the terms before activating. People ABUSING auto pilot are informed multiple times that is is an assistant, but refuse to keep focused on the road.
 
D

Deleted member 184142

Guest
finally, in plain language.


since when do airline pilots get trained as much as everyday drivers...

and Tesla only got away with dangerous mislabeling because they have a strong lobby and congress is very weak against tech (cause old geezer congressman and senators have tech advisors whom are in the pockets of these lobbies). Just try do this stunt labeling in pharma, and see where that ends you up at

everything 'auto' should be corrected to 'assisted'

in the context of automobiles, auto is directly and instantly identified with automatic gearing. Tesla exploiting this for marketing purposes should not be allowed.

First, you are going to move the goal post of "Autopilot should not be used because its not at that level", and once it is pointed out that it is actually past that level we move to some weird assumption that because "auto" is used in the word it some how has relation to automatic transmissions which somehow means it is level 5 autonomous driving and that people can ignore the pages of information, and warning prompts every time you turn the system on, the paper work they signed, the visual and audible warnings to keep your hands on the wheel as they have been told time and time again.

I swear, this sort of mental gymnastics is like trying to defend people who eat Tide Pods.

But hey, lets ignore facts, personal responsibility and actual definitions of the word:

"When a plane is on autopilot, it's not exactly flying itself, but it's set to maintain a course or altitude while the pilot concentrates on other details of operating the airplane. Autopilot is short for automatic pilot, and the first such system for aircraft was invented in 1912. The nickname came later, in the 1930s."

As matter of fact, calling it AutoPilot is actually one of the best choices of words, as it only keeps a plane on course and is not and does not mean fully autonomous.

So it's not even called "Autopilot" at all, but "AutoSteer".... How interesting...

That is correct. The full completed system is to be called AutoPilot, which actually does and controls more than most aircraft.

I mean hell, I don't like Tesla for a lot of reason, but the whole mantra of "It shouldn't be called AutoPilot so therefor it is Tesla's fault" is just getting old.
 

Wierdo

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
1,817


Putting aside the obvious attempt at manufacturing drama in some segments - an "entertainment" media affliction in general these days - the interview itself is pretty sensible overall imho.

Basically have some common sense and follow product instructions for safe operation, otherwise might as well ban guns next.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
It has nothing to do with the name of the system. Dumb people did this with cruise control when it came out thinking it would drive for them..... Any cruise control doesn't spam you with warnings and require you to approve to the terms before activating. People ABUSING auto pilot are informed multiple times that is is an assistant, but refuse to keep focused on the road.
#ThisShitRightHere

I've got a story where my ex-brother-in-law was party to such stupidity...
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005
First, you are going to move the goal post of "Autopilot should not be used because its not at that level", and once it is pointed out that it is actually past that level we move to some weird assumption that because "auto" is used in the word it some how has relation to automatic transmissions which somehow means it is level 5 autonomous driving and that people can ignore the pages of information, and warning prompts every time you turn the system on, the paper work they signed, the visual and audible warnings to keep your hands on the wheel as they have been told time and time again.

I swear, this sort of mental gymnastics is like trying to defend people who eat Tide Pods.

But hey, lets ignore facts, personal responsibility and actual definitions of the word:

"When a plane is on autopilot, it's not exactly flying itself, but it's set to maintain a course or altitude while the pilot concentrates on other details of operating the airplane. Autopilot is short for automatic pilot, and the first such system for aircraft was invented in 1912. The nickname came later, in the 1930s."

As matter of fact, calling it AutoPilot is actually one of the best choices of words, as it only keeps a plane on course and is not and does not mean fully autonomous.



That is correct. The full completed system is to be called AutoPilot, which actually does and controls more than most aircraft.

I mean hell, I don't like Tesla for a lot of reason, but the whole mantra of "It shouldn't be called AutoPilot so therefor it is Tesla's fault" is just getting old.
'cept I'm not blaming them...
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
1,005


Putting aside the obvious attempt at manufacturing drama in some segments - an "entertainment" media affliction in general these days - the interview itself is pretty sensible overall imho.

Basically have some common sense and follow product instructions for safe operation, otherwise might as well ban guns next.

Guns are designed to kill. Cars are not.
 
Top