"No Survivors": Second New Boeing 737 to Crash in Four Months

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    Boeing’s new 737 MAX 8 twin-engine jet airliner doesn’t seem to be flying so good: another crashed today, the second in just four months, raising suspicion something may be wrong with the plane. Controversy from pilots regarding the last incident, Lion Air flight 610, suggests the aircraft’s autonomy could be a significant risk factor.

    The new plane automatically compensates if it believes its angle puts it at a risk of stalling, a safety feature that worked in a slightly different way to that which 737 pilots were used to. Lion Air’s black box suggested the pilots of flight 610 had been wrestling with this issue. Boeing argued that if pilots followed existing procedures, there should be no danger.
     
  2. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    It is way to early to speculate about what happened.
     
  3. doz

    doz [H]ardness Supreme

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    Obviously the Russians shooting down planes.............
     
  4. Galvin

    Galvin 2[H]4U

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    When not sure just blame the russians, works every time :D
     
  5. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai Death Incarnate

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    I am willing to bet it is "Pilots forgot how to fly the plane for $1000, Alex"
     
  6. Kdawg

    Kdawg Gawd

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    pilots tried to fight the automated system.

    this is what's gonna happen with automated cars. people forgetting how to drive

     
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  7. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai Death Incarnate

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    choice 2 "I'll take pilot suicide for $1000, Alex"

    ***Daily Double***
     
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  8. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's obviously way to early to know for certain but here are some details regarding the previous crash of the same model.

    "Preliminary investigation into the Lion Air crash established that a faulty sensor triggered a new flight control system on the MAX — called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) — that repeatedly pushed the nose of the airplane down."

    "The Lion Air flight data showed that airplane repeatedly losing and then regaining altitude for 12 minutes before the final dive into the sea, as the pilots struggled to pull the nose up each time MCAS pushed it down."

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...cond-recent-crash-of-a-boeing-737-max-begins/
     
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  9. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai Death Incarnate

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    plane not flying right on automation?

    ***Turn it off and fly manually*** that is what you as a pilot are paid to do.
     
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  10. Elios

    Elios [H]ardness Supreme

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    F tier airline "pilots" that dont know how to fly the aircraft is fine or there would 73M's droping out of the sky over the US which there are not both Lion Air and this Airline have a history of lack of and bad pilot training and shit maintenance
     
  11. Elios

    Elios [H]ardness Supreme

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    Lion Air also has a history of shitty ops they have lost an avg of like 3 aircraft a year for the last 10 years ... you couldnt pay me to get on one of there aircraft
     
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  12. stealthballer123

    stealthballer123 Limp Gawd

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    I don't fly anymore.
    Until the world is a whole lot better place I don't trust the pilots to be stable.

    Live my whole life only to have some jackass pull something like this, no thank you.

    I will take my chances in a car, at least I have a level of control there.
     
  13. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot 2[H]4U

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    There is an off switch for the new version of MCAS. Apparently Boeing decided to make a change in the new version of the 737Max then published the change in a different way then past changes to flight control behavior were published. Think on page 42 of a change list instead of page 1. Most if not all of the airlines missed the importance of the change and how to deal with it when it breaks. Reports said the new MCAS has a single point of failure in that it only uses data from one pitot tube. If that tube fails(prime suspect in the Lion Air crash), the system misreads airspeed as being too slow and keeps pushing the nose down.

    As others have said, too early to speculate much about this new crash but preliminary reports seem to indicate rapid changes in rate of climb before the crash.
     
  14. DrDoU

    DrDoU 2[H]4U

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    if people were mint to fly God would have given them feathers and wings.
     
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  15. iamjanco

    iamjanco Limp Gawd

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    Maybe we can blame it on Space Invaders if Boeing sources some of their parts from NVIDIA
     
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  16. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wow! There needs to be a switch to just turn auto pilot OFF! Maybe it even has to be approved and electronically allowed by ground control before it can be toggled.
     
  17. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That sounds like nonsense despite the specifics. A single point of failure on an airspeed sensor that will doom the whole plane? From Boeing? Something is fishy with that info. I’d like to think anything critical has multiple well engineered backup systems in place.

    If that’s true and it was designed so poorly then the survivors family’s could sue Boeing into oblivion.
     
  18. infinity9

    infinity9 Limp Gawd

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    You are much more likely to die in a car anyway.
     
  19. The Mad Atheist

    The Mad Atheist Gawd

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    Naw, they'll just do it to get a wink or two in during the commute because of DLS.
    The fact some pilots taking other people with them to the grave is truly sickening. Shame they don't have the sense to seek help or the very least call in sick and eat a bullet instead of killing innocent people.
    I don't mind if some nut bringing a knife on a plane and threaten to kill a person to gain control, the chances are near 0% this'll happen again. If people on the plane are stupid enough to let them, then they deserve to die. The TSA is a joke and just overkill to make people think they're safe. I just like getting felt up by 'ribbed for your pleasure' Frances, or my possessions ran-sacked.

    Might as well say that for driving too. :)
     
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  20. Spidey329

    Spidey329 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    This is the third Boeing plane that has been lost in 4 months, that's not a good view no matter who is at fault.
     
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  21. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    You can, you just have to do it correctly. Plus, Boeing designs tend to be far less automated than Airbus designs. It is a bit of a cultural difference that Airbus fans like to cast shade on Boeing designs about. However, many times these things come back to pilots incorrectly working through the problem with automated systems rather than just plain screwing up piloting (Asiana Flight 214 being an exception...they just flew that into the ground because they were too dependent on automation and couldn't deal without the automation).
     
  22. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    For some reason counting the Saha 707 seems quite disingenuous in that list.
     
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  23. Clickjocky

    Clickjocky n00b

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    I agree. The engineers at Boeing would not have overlooked a sensor failure. Knowing very little I'd bet the system would at least used two sensor inputs, one most likely GPS, and multiple alarms before overriding pilot inputs. My guess, new aircraft, lack of training, pilot panic. There are only three reasons the plane would have went down. Catastrophic mechanical failure (unlikely) but possible to to an external event. No fuel (we would know already) Pilot error (most likely).
     
  24. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    Unless you have an act of violence or you hit something or FOD it is rare that single item brings down an airliner. How pilots react to a single thing can though. Look at AF 447 it was unreliable airspeed because of a pitot tube issue plus pilot error dealing with that scenario.
     
  25. faugusztin

    faugusztin 2[H]4U

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    Wasn't the point of 737 MAX 8 that the pilots need NO retraining ?
     
  26. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    No.
     
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  27. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    So basically safety feature crashes plane. Because pilots weren't educated properly on it's operation. Seems to be a case of both human and technical error.
     
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  28. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    Including a 40+ year old aircraft is a little more than just disengenuous, it's starting to enter ludicrous territory.
     
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  29. freeloader1969

    freeloader1969 2[H]4U

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    Jesus fucking Christ! We've been using human pilots for how long and now all of sudden we need computers to do every fucking thing for us? How about a single button on the cockpit dash somewhere that totally disables/enables computer assistance of any kind? If the pilots can't gain control they can push the button for assistance or if the pilots think they're fighting the computer, they can totally disable it. Complicated systems will always break thus at some point in history someone thought of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid). Condolences to the families who lost loved ones.
     
  30. WorldExclusive

    WorldExclusive [H]ardForum Junkie

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    With the recently relaxed US regulations of recent years, Boeing will continue business as usual, easily settling with each family quietly.
     
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  31. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    According to this document it is indeed a single point of error. Page 50-54.
     
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  32. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    Which regulations with regard to aviation safety have been relaxed exactly?
     
  33. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Crazy idea I know, but how about we wait for some details before we begin trying to pretend we're all aviation incident investigators?
     
  34. Clickjocky

    Clickjocky n00b

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    Nice find. From the document it sure looks that way and it was a known potential problem.

    This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system, there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer.

    That opens up more questions. I don't have any clue what the pilot training protocols are but it seems that this would be critical information when flying this aircraft.

    I'll also add a quote from Bruno Sinatti, president of Alter, Air France's third-biggest pilots' union, stated that "Piloting becomes very difficult, near impossible, without reliable speed data."
     
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  35. Paul_Johnson

    Paul_Johnson [H] PSU Editor & Admin Staff Member

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    Such as?

    Without context of when he said that it could be incredibly ironic.
     
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  36. Clickjocky

    Clickjocky n00b

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    So we can pretend after they give us the details? :wacky:
     
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  37. jevans64

    jevans64 Gawd

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    If God meant for us to go 50 in a 25 he would have given us all jetpacks.
     
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  38. focbde

    focbde Gawd

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    Comprehension fail. I said 'some' details.
     
  39. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Paul, not trying to be funny but my GF and I fly a few times a month. We've flown already 12 times in 2019.

    What would you recommend. Normally, we do not pay a lot of attention to what we are flying on.

    If we run into one of these Boeing 737 MAX 8's do we fly it or re-book. What do you suggest to people who play often enough this could be a concern.

    What's your offical word on to fly or not to fly.

    I just saw China is grounding these aircraft.
     
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  40. Laowai

    Laowai Gawd

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    That's entirely political, imo. The Chinese have an airplane in the works that's supposed to be in the same league as the 737 and it's being built by an SOE. Ground Boeing 737's, cancel unfulfilled orders, buy the commie version.
     
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