"No Survivors": Second New Boeing 737 to Crash in Four Months

Megalith

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Boeing’s new 737 MAX 8 twin-engine jet airliner doesn’t seem to be flying so good: another crashed today, the second in just four months, raising suspicion something may be wrong with the plane. Controversy from pilots regarding the last incident, Lion Air flight 610, suggests the aircraft’s autonomy could be a significant risk factor.

The new plane automatically compensates if it believes its angle puts it at a risk of stalling, a safety feature that worked in a slightly different way to that which 737 pilots were used to. Lion Air’s black box suggested the pilots of flight 610 had been wrestling with this issue. Boeing argued that if pilots followed existing procedures, there should be no danger.
 

bigdogchris

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It's obviously way to early to know for certain but here are some details regarding the previous crash of the same model.

"Preliminary investigation into the Lion Air crash established that a faulty sensor triggered a new flight control system on the MAX — called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) — that repeatedly pushed the nose of the airplane down."

"The Lion Air flight data showed that airplane repeatedly losing and then regaining altitude for 12 minutes before the final dive into the sea, as the pilots struggled to pull the nose up each time MCAS pushed it down."

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...cond-recent-crash-of-a-boeing-737-max-begins/
 

Elios

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F tier airline "pilots" that dont know how to fly the aircraft is fine or there would 73M's droping out of the sky over the US which there are not both Lion Air and this Airline have a history of lack of and bad pilot training and shit maintenance
 

Elios

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It's obviously way to early to know for certain but here are some details regarding the previous crash of the same model.

"Preliminary investigation into the Lion Air crash established that a faulty sensor triggered a new flight control system on the MAX — called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) — that repeatedly pushed the nose of the airplane down."

"The Lion Air flight data showed that airplane repeatedly losing and then regaining altitude for 12 minutes before the final dive into the sea, as the pilots struggled to pull the nose up each time MCAS pushed it down."

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...cond-recent-crash-of-a-boeing-737-max-begins/
Lion Air also has a history of shitty ops they have lost an avg of like 3 aircraft a year for the last 10 years ... you couldnt pay me to get on one of there aircraft
 

Dead Parrot

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There is an off switch for the new version of MCAS. Apparently Boeing decided to make a change in the new version of the 737Max then published the change in a different way then past changes to flight control behavior were published. Think on page 42 of a change list instead of page 1. Most if not all of the airlines missed the importance of the change and how to deal with it when it breaks. Reports said the new MCAS has a single point of failure in that it only uses data from one pitot tube. If that tube fails(prime suspect in the Lion Air crash), the system misreads airspeed as being too slow and keeps pushing the nose down.

As others have said, too early to speculate much about this new crash but preliminary reports seem to indicate rapid changes in rate of climb before the crash.
 

Archaea

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It's obviously way to early to know for certain but here are some details regarding the previous crash of the same model.

"Preliminary investigation into the Lion Air crash established that a faulty sensor triggered a new flight control system on the MAX — called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) — that repeatedly pushed the nose of the airplane down."

"The Lion Air flight data showed that airplane repeatedly losing and then regaining altitude for 12 minutes before the final dive into the sea, as the pilots struggled to pull the nose up each time MCAS pushed it down."

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...cond-recent-crash-of-a-boeing-737-max-begins/
Wow! There needs to be a switch to just turn auto pilot OFF! Maybe it even has to be approved and electronically allowed by ground control before it can be toggled.
 

Archaea

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There is an off switch for the new version of MCAS. Apparently Boeing decided to make a change in the new version of the 737Max then published the change in a different way then past changes to flight control behavior were published. Think on page 42 of a change list instead of page 1. Most if not all of the airlines missed the importance of the change and how to deal with it when it breaks. Reports said the new MCAS has a single point of failure in that it only uses data from one pitot tube. If that tube fails(prime suspect in the Lion Air crash), the system misreads airspeed as being too slow and keeps pushing the nose down.

As others have said, too early to speculate much about this new crash but preliminary reports seem to indicate rapid changes in rate of climb before the crash.

That sounds like nonsense despite the specifics. A single point of failure on an airspeed sensor that will doom the whole plane? From Boeing? Something is fishy with that info. I’d like to think anything critical has multiple well engineered backup systems in place.

If that’s true and it was designed so poorly then the survivors family’s could sue Boeing into oblivion.
 

The Mad Atheist

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pilots tried to fight the automated system.

this is what's gonna happen with automated cars. people forgetting how to drive
Naw, they'll just do it to get a wink or two in during the commute because of DLS.
choice 2 "I'll take pilot suicide for $1000, Alex"

***Daily Double***
I don't fly anymore.
Until the world is a whole lot better place I don't trust the pilots to be stable.

Live my whole life only to have some jackass pull something like this, no thank you.

I will take my chances in a car, at least I have a level of control there.
The fact some pilots taking other people with them to the grave is truly sickening. Shame they don't have the sense to seek help or the very least call in sick and eat a bullet instead of killing innocent people.
I don't mind if some nut bringing a knife on a plane and threaten to kill a person to gain control, the chances are near 0% this'll happen again. If people on the plane are stupid enough to let them, then they deserve to die. The TSA is a joke and just overkill to make people think they're safe. I just like getting felt up by 'ribbed for your pleasure' Frances, or my possessions ran-sacked.

if people were mint to fly God would have given them feathers and wings.
Might as well say that for driving too. :)
 

Spidey329

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This is the third Boeing plane that has been lost in 4 months, that's not a good view no matter who is at fault.
 

[Spectre]

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Wow! There needs to be a switch to just turn auto pilot OFF! Maybe it even has to be approved and electronically allowed by ground control before it can be toggled.
You can, you just have to do it correctly. Plus, Boeing designs tend to be far less automated than Airbus designs. It is a bit of a cultural difference that Airbus fans like to cast shade on Boeing designs about. However, many times these things come back to pilots incorrectly working through the problem with automated systems rather than just plain screwing up piloting (Asiana Flight 214 being an exception...they just flew that into the ground because they were too dependent on automation and couldn't deal without the automation).
 

Clickjocky

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That sounds like nonsense despite the specifics. A single point of failure on an airspeed sensor that will doom the whole plane? From Boeing? Something is fishy with that info. I’d like to think anything critical has multiple well engineered backup systems in place.

If that’s true and it was designed so poorly then the survivors family’s could sue Boeing into oblivion.

I agree. The engineers at Boeing would not have overlooked a sensor failure. Knowing very little I'd bet the system would at least used two sensor inputs, one most likely GPS, and multiple alarms before overriding pilot inputs. My guess, new aircraft, lack of training, pilot panic. There are only three reasons the plane would have went down. Catastrophic mechanical failure (unlikely) but possible to to an external event. No fuel (we would know already) Pilot error (most likely).
 

[Spectre]

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I agree. The engineers at Boeing would not have overlooked a sensor failure. Knowing very little I'd bet the system would at least used two sensor inputs, one most likely GPS, and multiple alarms before overriding pilot inputs. My guess, new aircraft, lack of training, pilot panic. There are only three reasons the plane would have went down. Catastrophic mechanical failure (unlikely) but possible to to an external event. No fuel (we would know already) Pilot error (most likely).
Unless you have an act of violence or you hit something or FOD it is rare that single item brings down an airliner. How pilots react to a single thing can though. Look at AF 447 it was unreliable airspeed because of a pitot tube issue plus pilot error dealing with that scenario.
 

M76

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So basically safety feature crashes plane. Because pilots weren't educated properly on it's operation. Seems to be a case of both human and technical error.
 
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Jesus fucking Christ! We've been using human pilots for how long and now all of sudden we need computers to do every fucking thing for us? How about a single button on the cockpit dash somewhere that totally disables/enables computer assistance of any kind? If the pilots can't gain control they can push the button for assistance or if the pilots think they're fighting the computer, they can totally disable it. Complicated systems will always break thus at some point in history someone thought of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid). Condolences to the families who lost loved ones.
 

M76

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I agree. The engineers at Boeing would not have overlooked a sensor failure. Knowing very little I'd bet the system would at least used two sensor inputs, one most likely GPS, and multiple alarms before overriding pilot inputs. My guess, new aircraft, lack of training, pilot panic. There are only three reasons the plane would have went down. Catastrophic mechanical failure (unlikely) but possible to to an external event. No fuel (we would know already) Pilot error (most likely).
According to this document it is indeed a single point of error. Page 50-54.
 

[Spectre]

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With the recently relaxed US regulations of recent years, Boeing will continue business as usual, easily settling with each family quietly.
Which regulations with regard to aviation safety have been relaxed exactly?
 

Clickjocky

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According to this document it is indeed a single point of error. Page 50-54.
Nice find. From the document it sure looks that way and it was a known potential problem.

This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system, there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer.

That opens up more questions. I don't have any clue what the pilot training protocols are but it seems that this would be critical information when flying this aircraft.

I'll also add a quote from Bruno Sinatti, president of Alter, Air France's third-biggest pilots' union, stated that "Piloting becomes very difficult, near impossible, without reliable speed data."
 

[Spectre]

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Nice find. From the document it sure looks that way and it was a known potential problem.

This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system, there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer.

That opens up more questions.
Such as?

I'll also add a quote from Bruno Sinatti, president of Alter, Air France's third-biggest pilots' union, stated that "Piloting becomes very difficult, near impossible, without reliable speed data."
Without context of when he said that it could be incredibly ironic.
 

SixFootDuo

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It is way to early to speculate about what happened.
Paul, not trying to be funny but my GF and I fly a few times a month. We've flown already 12 times in 2019.

What would you recommend. Normally, we do not pay a lot of attention to what we are flying on.

If we run into one of these Boeing 737 MAX 8's do we fly it or re-book. What do you suggest to people who play often enough this could be a concern.

What's your offical word on to fly or not to fly.

I just saw China is grounding these aircraft.
 

Laowai

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I just saw China is grounding these aircraft.
That's entirely political, imo. The Chinese have an airplane in the works that's supposed to be in the same league as the 737 and it's being built by an SOE. Ground Boeing 737's, cancel unfulfilled orders, buy the commie version.
 
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