No more attributes in Diablo 3

I find it funny. Diablo 2 at release, and even after the release of the expansion, was really easy. Then they introduced the patch that allowed more mobs to be immune to physical/elements. Blizzard purposely made the game more difficult, and ruined previous builds people had spent time on. I had several lvl 99's that I had to redo because of the patch for PVE purposes.

So the old Blizzard made Diablo 1 and Diablo 2, both games relatively challenging, then release a D2 patch to make it more challenging, then Blizzard units with Activision, and we are left with this dumb down D3. Ever since Blizzard became Blizzard Activision, I've hated much of the direction their games have been headed. I guess what it comes down to, most of the games I enjoy from Blizzard were made by people who no longer work for Blizzard. I'm no longer a huge Blizzard fan, and really don't care about D3 at this point. D1 and D2 were the only games I played for a long time. I would stay up all day and all night playing D2 for at least 3 years after its release. I've gone back a few times after patch updates. But after I saw footage of D3, and hearing all these changes... basically, it's these new people taking an IP that was successful and fucking it up trying to cash in on that IP. Blizzard has died in the storm and is nothing but a huge pile of yellow snow.
 
Baker said:
I find it funny. Diablo 2 at release, and even after the release of the expansion, was really easy. Then they introduced the patch that allowed more mobs to be immune to physical/elements. Blizzard purposely made the game more difficult, and ruined previous builds people had spent time on. I had several lvl 99's that I had to redo because of the patch for PVE purposes.
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From the perspective of a modern QQer, they'd call it a lazy band-aid fix. It's not just the company that has changed, you know.
 
Yoshiyuki Blade said:
From the perspective of a modern QQer, they'd call it a lazy band-aid fix. It's not just the company that has changed, you know.
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Yeah and basically what I'm gathering from this thread is people want Diablo 2 with 3D graphics.

These same people also probably complained that StarCraft 2 was nothing more than StarCraft 1 with 3D graphics.

Blizzard gets crucified for literally anything they do. The game is over a year away, no one here has played it, they're still experimenting with changes. I don't understand how anyone can conclude that it's "dumbed down" and "easymode" just because they removed certain aspects of the game that weren't particularly fun.
 
Baker said:
I find it funny. Diablo 2 at release, and even after the release of the expansion, was really easy. Then they introduced the patch that allowed more mobs to be immune to physical/elements. Blizzard purposely made the game more difficult, and ruined previous builds people had spent time on. I had several lvl 99's that I had to redo because of the patch for PVE purposes.

So the old Blizzard made Diablo 1 and Diablo 2, both games relatively challenging, then release a D2 patch to make it more challenging, then Blizzard units with Activision, and we are left with this dumb down D3. Ever since Blizzard became Blizzard Activision, I've hated much of the direction their games have been headed. I guess what it comes down to, most of the games I enjoy from Blizzard were made by people who no longer work for Blizzard. I'm no longer a huge Blizzard fan, and really don't care about D3 at this point. D1 and D2 were the only games I played for a long time. I would stay up all day and all night playing D2 for at least 3 years after its release. I've gone back a few times after patch updates. But after I saw footage of D3, and hearing all these changes... basically, it's these new people taking an IP that was successful and fucking it up trying to cash in on that IP. Blizzard has died in the storm and is nothing but a huge pile of yellow snow.
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So you've played Diablo 3 all the way through and find it easy? :rolleyes:

Diablo 2, on release, was an EASY game. Even after the patches to make it harder, it was never a question of whether or not I could get to level 99, just how long it would take. The game was never really challenging. Stats, in all honesty, were meaningless. Pretty much everyone had the same stats with very, very minor deviation.
 
Actually most games are pretty easy once you introduce save/load. Hardcore 99... now that's bragworthy. ... but yeah, levels only measure the amount of time grinding.

I had so much more fun playing hardcore. D2 is also more fun when focus is not on item finding runs.
 
AceCR42 said:
Yeah and basically what I'm gathering from this thread is people want Diablo 2 with 3D graphics.

These same people also probably complained that StarCraft 2 was nothing more than StarCraft 1 with 3D graphics.

Blizzard gets crucified for literally anything they do. The game is over a year away, no one here has played it, they're still experimenting with changes. I don't understand how anyone can conclude that it's "dumbed down" and "easymode" just because they removed certain aspects of the game that weren't particularly fun.
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you realize we're READING about the new changes??

that's how we're "concluding" things
 
Fail said:
you realize we're READING about the new changes??

that's how we're "concluding" things
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Yeah, "concluding" that the game will be awful and piss easy and might as well add in god-mode based on the fact that potions will have cooldowns and customizable attributes are removed.

Anything else?
 
AceCR42 said:
Yeah, "concluding" that the game will be awful and piss easy and might as well add in god-mode based on the fact that potions will have cooldowns and customizable attributes are removed.

Anything else?
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Lol!

Well played.
 
AceCR42 said:
Yeah and basically what I'm gathering from this thread is people want Diablo 2 with 3D graphics.

These same people also probably complained that StarCraft 2 was nothing more than StarCraft 1 with 3D graphics.

Blizzard gets crucified for literally anything they do. The game is over a year away, no one here has played it, they're still experimenting with changes. I don't understand how anyone can conclude that it's "dumbed down" and "easymode" just because they removed certain aspects of the game that weren't particularly fun.
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I've played it :)

I will buy it and I will play it as much if not more than D2; Why? Because it will be fun and it will have a great story.
 
Actuary said:
So you've played Diablo 3 all the way through and find it easy? :rolleyes:

Diablo 2, on release, was an EASY game. Even after the patches to make it harder, it was never a question of whether or not I could get to level 99, just how long it would take. The game was never really challenging. Stats, in all honesty, were meaningless. Pretty much everyone had the same stats with very, very minor deviation.
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Completely untrue.

So you're telling me, that a sword barbarian is using the same stats as a barbarian using a lance, or ... what about the lvl 80 warcry barb I was using, same stats there?

How about a bowazon vs. a javazon. You people know nothing.
 
Baker said:
Completely untrue.

So you're telling me, that a sword barbarian is using the same stats as a barbarian using a lance, or ... what about the lvl 80 warcry barb I was using, same stats there?

How about a bowazon vs. a javazon. You people know nothing.
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Yeah, every sorceress, necro, trap assassin, hammerdin, and caster druid had the same stats (enough str/dex, rest in vita). Very complicated, made the game so much more fun to read how much str I needed, put enough in it, and then dump the rest in vita. Talk about strategy!

It only varied if you wanted more dex (certain amazons) or str (certain barbs) or a mix of both (certain paladins). Blizz can easily accomplish the same thing by varying how much stat gain there is every level based on class or, if they want to get more specific, your skills.

But yeah, it was way more fun to lookup online the ideal stat distribution for your toon and then make it cookie cutter like everyone else. Added SOOOO much variety to the game. :rolleyes:

It's fun to whine and complain about a game that's not even out yet, yeah? Especially when you're nitpicking over something essentially meaningless, since everyone used the exact same stat allocation based on what they wanted their character to do. A monkey could read the cookie cutter builds online and copy it, Blizz has only eliminated total retards screwing up their toon and then having to start over. Don't be an elitist gaming prick.
 
What actually broke stats what LoD. The best items in the game were all rares before LoD then all the best items in the game were either unique or runewords then everyone could calculate how much str they needed and blah blah blah because all armor had the same stats. It was crap and energy was always broken because it did fucking nothing and that was just poor design. Make stats do something substantial and let us put them in manually. But no, since they fucked stats with LoD let's just remove stat allocation because blah blah blah everyone had the same shit blah blah blah I didn't know any other builds besides the OP cookie cutter builds because I was a scrub.
 
Actuary said:
Yeah, every sorceress, necro, trap assassin, hammerdin, and caster druid had the same stats (enough str/dex, rest in vita). Very complicated, made the game so much more fun to read how much str I needed, put enough in it, and then dump the rest in vita. Talk about strategy!

It only varied if you wanted more dex (certain amazons) or str (certain barbs) or a mix of both (certain paladins). Blizz can easily accomplish the same thing by varying how much stat gain there is every level based on class or, if they want to get more specific, your skills.

But yeah, it was way more fun to lookup online the ideal stat distribution for your toon and then make it cookie cutter like everyone else. Added SOOOO much variety to the game. :rolleyes:

It's fun to whine and complain about a game that's not even out yet, yeah? Especially when you're nitpicking over something essentially meaningless, since everyone used the exact same stat allocation based on what they wanted their character to do. A monkey could read the cookie cutter builds online and copy it, Blizz has only eliminated total retards screwing up their toon and then having to start over. Don't be an elitist gaming prick.
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Yes, because going online to look up how someone else builds their character means there is no variety to D2. :rolleyes: You're missing the point some of us are trying to make. Stats allow for CUSTOM BUILDS. If every person playing a barbarian gets auto-stats upon leveling, there are no CUSTOM BUILDS. Not all the characters I built in D2 were "online cookie cutter builds". Like I said, I had a lvl 80 WARCRY barb. He dual fisted UMES and had stats in vit and energy. Anyways, doesn't even matter anymore. Don't care about D3 anymore. They can do what ever they want with it. If it was 1996 or 2000, where we didn't have a billion games to choose from, I'd probably be more butt hurt than I am now. But its 2010 and I have plenty of other games to play and throw my money at.
 
Baker said:
Yes, because going online to look up how someone else builds their character means there is no variety to D2. :rolleyes: You're missing the point some of us are trying to make. Stats allow for CUSTOM BUILDS. If every person playing a barbarian gets auto-stats upon leveling, there are no CUSTOM BUILDS. Not all the characters I built in D2 were "online cookie cutter builds". Like I said, I had a lvl 80 WARCRY barb. He dual fisted UMES and had stats in vit and energy. Anyways, doesn't even matter anymore. Don't care about D3 anymore. They can do what ever they want with it. If it was 1996 or 2000, where we didn't have a billion games to choose from, I'd probably be more butt hurt than I am now. But its 2010 and I have plenty of other games to play and throw my money at.
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Skills were instrumental in differentiating builds, not stat points. I'm fairly certain we still get to pick our own skills, and our gear, so it's still plenty custom. Choosing between an extra 20 hp or 10 mana wasn't exactly the most thrilling part of the game, and having a very minor differentiator taken out isn't as nearly as big a deal as some of you are making it out to be. The skills and the gear were what D2 was all about, not stats. Let's make some more mountains out of ant hills.

Stats were not a differentiator for 99% of the characters, excluding retards who couldn't handle placing them properly. Blizz auto-assigning them based on class, or whatever other criteria they choose, will have essentially NO impact on the game. Actually, yes it will, it will keep people from doing stupid crap like putting all their points in energy and gimping their character. This is a good move.
 
As a D&D player I'm used to the concept of stats set in stone, and relying on gear to get the job done.

If its going to be more like that, then i can totally whomp on this game. Might even get into playing multiplayer again.
 
Baker said:
Yes, because going online to look up how someone else builds their character means there is no variety to D2. :rolleyes: You're missing the point some of us are trying to make. Stats allow for CUSTOM BUILDS. If every person playing a barbarian gets auto-stats upon leveling, there are no CUSTOM BUILDS. Not all the characters I built in D2 were "online cookie cutter builds". Like I said, I had a lvl 80 WARCRY barb. He dual fisted UMES and had stats in vit and energy. Anyways, doesn't even matter anymore. Don't care about D3 anymore. They can do what ever they want with it. If it was 1996 or 2000, where we didn't have a billion games to choose from, I'd probably be more butt hurt than I am now. But its 2010 and I have plenty of other games to play and throw my money at.
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LOL, a tad dramatic are we?

Talents made the builds, not stat allocation. Kudos to blizzard.
 
Actuary said:
Skills were instrumental in differentiating builds, not stat points. I'm fairly certain we still get to pick our own skills, and our gear, so it's still plenty custom. Choosing between an extra 20 hp or 10 mana wasn't exactly the most thrilling part of the game, and having a very minor differentiator taken out isn't as nearly as big a deal as some of you are making it out to be. The skills and the gear were what D2 was all about, not stats. Let's make some more mountains out of ant hills.

Stats were not a differentiator for 99% of the characters, excluding retards who couldn't handle placing them properly. Blizz auto-assigning them based on class, or whatever other criteria they choose, will have essentially NO impact on the game. Actually, yes it will, it will keep people from doing stupid crap like putting all their points in energy and gimping their character. This is a good move.
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You're ignorant. That is all.
 
Baker said:
You're ignorant. That is all.
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No, you are being dense. Diablo 2 has always been about planning out item and skill builds. Removing the custom attributes and the item strength/dex requirements should lead to a wider array of items any character is able to wield.

I agree that not being able to plan out attributes was a bit saddening to hear at first, but the more I think about it the more it appears to be a wise choice.

Here's an example of custom builds possible by attributes.
Energy Shield sorcs by pumping energy instead of vitality with no block.
or
Energy Shield sorcs by pumping energy instead of vitality and just enough dex to get decent block rates
or
Vitality sorcs with pure vitality
or
Vitality sorcs with vitality and just enough dex to get decent block rates.

How is that intense or customizable? The possibilities of builds by having no Str/Dex requirements is EXPONENTIAL compared to that pitiful mess.
 
TheCommander said:
Same when compared to D1. D1 had no mercy on you. When you died, you lost all your equipment. If you did not go back and get your equipment, it was gone forever. It sure was hard as heck getting it back too. That created a sense that you had to be extremely careful at times.
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Are you saying that was a good thing? If so, you need to get your head out of your ass because that is, quite simply, terrible game design. Don't talk about the old hardcore games as if they are something to be looked up to and emulated. As with all things, they need to walk that fine moderated line between both sides of the spectrum. They have tended in recent years to shift towards the easier side, which is understandable. The hard side will just make people ragequit and never play again.
 
There’s really nothing left to debate. Even if we as a board reach a common middle ground, we are not Blizzard Activision and make no difference on the end product. I've already walked through the door of "I could care less at this point". Like I stated earlier, plenty of other quality games out there. Not like this is the only one. I will move on, thanks.
 
Actuary said:
Skills were instrumental in differentiating builds, not stat points. I'm fairly certain we still get to pick our own skills, and our gear, so it's still plenty custom. Choosing between an extra 20 hp or 10 mana wasn't exactly the most thrilling part of the game, and having a very minor differentiator taken out isn't as nearly as big a deal as some of you are making it out to be. The skills and the gear were what D2 was all about, not stats. Let's make some more mountains out of ant hills.

Stats were not a differentiator for 99% of the characters, excluding retards who couldn't handle placing them properly. Blizz auto-assigning them based on class, or whatever other criteria they choose, will have essentially NO impact on the game. Actually, yes it will, it will keep people from doing stupid crap like putting all their points in energy and gimping their character. This is a good move.
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"Skills were instrumental in differentiating builds, not stat points. I'm fairly certain we still get to pick our own skills, and our gear, so it's still plenty custom."

"Stats were not a differentiator for 99% of the characters, excluding retards who couldn't handle placing them properly."

Bullshit. No matter how you cut it, taking away attribute points is taking a way a freedom to customize your character, a factor almost if not equally as important as abilities.

You argue that only "retards" could place att points improperly. Damnit there are thousands of posibilities that you remove. What if you just want a barb with a large healthpool rather than hitting hard for hardcore mode. Or make whatever class a breed between range / melee for the hell of it. Or anything. When you start to look at the possibilites of custom builds and experimenting you should realize that the lack of attribute points really takes away a lot. If you can't see that then you are *beep* and / or completely unaware of what gave diablo such a quality of replayability.

You could argue that the game will still be fun and that there are still room for customization, but how the fuck is that an argument for Removing elements of complexity and freedom? No matter how you cut it it's simply "less". And that's all that it is. And its gonna matter for a lot to fans who want to make something unique.

Anyway... combine that with the lack of potions... potions are a part of the game that make the diablo gameplay what it is. You had to time it right, have enough, in quantity as well as quality. I simply can't imagine diablo without potions. It's a more crucial element of the gameplay than people realize at this point, i think. At the end of the day you are only removing awesome gameplay elements and making the game more arcadish. Sorry but going that direction has never been a good move in the story of pc gaming let alone ADDED fun, except making the game more friendly towards people who dont care enough about the game to think about how to place their attribute points, in other words, people who dont deserve to have a say in how the next diablo should be like. Its bullshit. Blizzard is not really a gaming company any more, its a huge industrialized machine who realizes that kids with A.D.D. who dont really get involved with the game have money too.

Now are we saying that there's no way D3 can be fun and that it's going to be a complete abomination? No... but we are saying that the gameplay is going to be less rather than different or more. And thats a thing to be concerned about if you are a fan. This is not any random game this is Diablo. Ofcourse people are concerned and ofcourse it's interesting to discuss this.
 
I love watching people in this thread trying to explain how corpse runs, stat point allocation, and filling your inventory with potions is a good idea nowadays and those that think otherwise don't "deserve" a say in what D3 should be.

Guess what, you're not a special little flower just because you played D2 and don't want a thing changed.
 
krameriffic said:
Are you saying that was a good thing? If so, you need to get your head out of your ass because that is, quite simply, terrible game design. Don't talk about the old hardcore games as if they are something to be looked up to and emulated. As with all things, they need to walk that fine moderated line between both sides of the spectrum. They have tended in recent years to shift towards the easier side, which is understandable. The hard side will just make people ragequit and never play again.
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You need to get your head out of your ass and understand not everyone wants it easy and that hard games are not "terrible game design." Some people like hardcore games. D2 at least had a hardcore mode. Maybe D3 will as well but the game is still being simplified.
 
TheCommander said:
Forget stats and skills and items. Give everyone god mode and everyone will be happy.
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Yes apparantly that is good game design! Lets not worry about anythign but click the fucking mouse around and skill up "Fireball". Who wants to actually get immersed and learn a game that any 3yo couldnt play?

I wanna fucking puke...
 
I know its hard not to be dramatic when making a post, but at least try not to make fallacious slippery slope arguments to make a point. There's "good" ways to make a hard game and "bad" ways. Having customizable attributes for the sake of customization (and not a very compelling gameplay mechanic at that) doesn't make the game any harder.
 
give us LAN and I'll be happy.


Removal of status would just take some time getting used to. I imagine the skills, weapons and other customization is plenty enough to keep me busy, but removing LAN will kill the game for me completely.
 
stevedave said:
give us LAN and I'll be happy.


Removal of status would just take some time getting used to. I imagine the skills, weapons and other customization is plenty enough to keep me busy, but removing LAN will kill the game for me completely.
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its all good, there will probably be facebook integration!
 
AceCR42 said:
Yeah, "concluding" that the game will be awful and piss easy and might as well add in god-mode based on the fact that potions will have cooldowns and customizable attributes are removed.

Anything else?
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I didn't know it was possible to die in Diablo 2, I must have missed the memo
 
It's time to kill this thread, we all have very limited information on what the the diablo 3 leveling system is like. There's no doubt in my mind the Diablo 3 will be deeper and better than diablo 2 in every single way. How do am I so confident in my opinion do you ask? Because Blizzard has absolutely never disappointed me in any way what so ever.

An archaic skill points distribution system that is no longer a part of the game is not tantamount to the game lacking in depth. There is no correlation to this judgement is passing on a game before any real information exists. This is ignorant, pessimistic, and contrarian, condemning a game because of change is stupid and hasty. I recommend we all wait until Blizzcon to make any further judgement rather than snivel over a change. Until then, it's speculative debate based on a house made out of cards, none of the opinions can be supported. Even then, I'm doubting we'll have a completely knowledge to pass a firm judgement on possible character depth.
 
Being a long term fan of Diablo, since the first was released in 1996, I will be enjoying Diablo 3 regardless of new game direction they decide to take.

I think it's a shame that people would deprive themselves of the gaming experience D3 is going to be simply because they removed a few features and switched things up a bit.

I have no doubt D3 is going to be a phenomenal, fun and rewarding game and I'm gonna play the shit out of it!
 
You know Command and Conquer was a fun, venerable, ground-breaking game, well loved by fans everywhere.

Then for the final and most recent game in the series, they jumped on the dumbed-down... sorry, "Streamlined" bandwagon.... and removed base building from the game entirely. After all, it was complicated and took effort, and people always have to build the same stuff in their base anyway, so why have it in the game?

That went over fantastically and everyone went home happy. The fans absolutely loved the change and the game sold millions of copies and concluded the game series wonderfully.

Owait it was a complete and utter failure of a game and marred the series for fans forever.
 
Kett said:
You know Command and Conquer was a fun, venerable, ground-breaking game, well loved by fans everywhere.

Then for the final and most recent game in the series, they jumped on the dumbed-down... sorry, "Streamlined" bandwagon.... and removed base building from the game entirely. After all, it was complicated and took effort, and people always have to build the same stuff in their base anyway, so why have it in the game?

That went over fantastically and everyone went home happy. The fans absolutely loved the change and the game sold millions of copies and concluded the game series wonderfully.

Owait it was a complete and utter failure of a game and marred the series for fans forever.
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This.

Like the old adage goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.... Unless you absolutely have something better to replace it with. E3 is in two months, we will see what they have for us.
 
Isnt the entire idea of these RPG type games to have characters with stats, I mean thats how it all started right with pencil and paper RPG games, you have a character with stats which evolves over time.

I've not played any significant amount of D2 and at the moment intend to buy D3 but I have to say that it does sound a bit newbed up to me, with no main stat + vitality balance you can't balance risk vs reward with your characters and make the so called glass cannon which takes more skill to use but is arguably more effective.

I don't think that the argument of needing to play the game to know how removing stats will effect it, is a very good one. Most old school RPG playes understand the fundamental importance of stats and how they allow you to fine tune your character.
 
PrincessFrosty said:
Isnt the entire idea of these RPG type games to have characters with stats, I mean thats how it all started right with pencil and paper RPG games, you have a character with stats which evolves over time.

I've not played any significant amount of D2 and at the moment intend to buy D3 but I have to say that it does sound a bit newbed up to me, with no main stat + vitality balance you can't balance risk vs reward with your characters and make the so called glass cannon which takes more skill to use but is arguably more effective.

I don't think that the argument of needing to play the game to know how removing stats will effect it, is a very good one. Most old school RPG playes understand the fundamental importance of stats and how they allow you to fine tune your character.
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The stats were basically useless. 10 years of people playing, a constant 45,000+ people playing at any time, people botting for the best items, as well as essential sites and technical studies of everything related to D2 inside and out means that people begin to know what to expect.

There's absolutely no risk in Diablo 2 when you play on softcore, you can die 50 times while getting rushed through all the difficulties at level 1. This means then, that if you're like many of the people that played it for a long time, the regular "content" has long been old and stale for years, and the game then revolves around achieving 99 and/or PVP'ing. Chances are you'll level to somewhere around 85-90 and then decide to PVP, since that's the only other thing to do. After years of doing that you just skip everything and say to yourself:

"Well I've done this atleast 200 times already, so lets see, my character will be a PVP WW barb, so how about a BvC (Barbarian vs Caster, well balanced), generally good items are this and this and this, how much strength do I need to use this all? Hmm.. "

You end up knowing the routine, you know what the stats do, so for years it's revolved mostly around doing what you know is best in the meta game. Sure anyone can dump all their stats into Energy, but have fun PVP'ing with your 1500 life against people who are all vitality with 6000+. There are ofcourse builds that don't focus entirely on Vitality, but the general rule of thumb has always been "enough strength for items" "enough dex for max block, or no dex" "rest into vitality" (exceptions ofcourse, like a Bowazon obviously)

That's not real "creative". It may seem like an additional level of complexity to a newbie, but it gets old after a while, trust me. Removing the stats all together is honestly better. Yes, we'll no longer see Titan Barbarians or similar, but i'm fine with that.
 
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