No-latency overclockable (up to 1080p@~270Hz) monitor controller board

Discussion in 'Displays' started by cirthix, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. Hobes

    Hobes n00b

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    Well thanks for looking into it.
     
  2. Enhanced Interrogator

    Enhanced Interrogator Gawd

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    could this be used to reduce the input lag on LG's 4k OLED TV's? They stand around 45ms right now, even with game mode on.
     
  3. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    I look up the TV model to try to find the panel, then look at either a picture of the TCON and the datasheet.
     
  4. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    OLED stuff is hard to get documentation on. Even when I was working at samsung display labs, we couldn't get that much information about the panels that we had!
     
  5. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    I don't think so. Didn't find your exact model though, only similar ones.
     
  6. KG-Prime90

    KG-Prime90 Limp Gawd

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    Edit tl/dr sorry, i'm typing aloud...

    4 channel 92 pins, is this the absolute requirement?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, i'm checking panels at that panel look site you mentioned. Some panels show the connector type and pin # and others do not. So some are 70 pins, some are 92, some are even 30 pin, and some unfortunately don't say.
    I was considering the Dell u2515H Panel # LM250WQ1-SSA1 but it doesn't even say what the connector type is. I assume all 25" 1440P monitors use this - at least it's the only one there is listed.

    I was going to ask what's the pin requirement but realized the Tn panel you mentioned is 92 pins.

    Unfortunately cannot DL spec sheets without pokeycoins or whatever :shifty:

    Also considering the Dell p2416D which uses one of the M238DAN01 variants. There are three variants of this panel.
    Two have 70 pins, (M238DAN01.3 and M238DAN01.1 QA) and 1 has 92 pins M238DAN01.1 Q0
    So i guess i have to dig more to find out which one it uses.

    2 channel / 4 channel - assuming more jooze is able to be pushed through @ skimming Goog. So 2 channel = no go?
    It looks like all of the Samsung Pls 16:10 24" are 2 channel. :grumpy:

    Eh you know what...Might as well start a reference list..

    Dell u2515H Panel # LM250WQ1-SSA1 - No Connector Listed
    Dell p2416D Panel # M238DAN01.1 (4 ch, 8-bit) Variants ( Q0 92 Pin - QA 70 pin - 1.3 70 Pin )

    will add more as i research..
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  7. KG-Prime90

    KG-Prime90 Limp Gawd

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    cont..

    I feel it's too bad you weren't able to release this a few years back, as with the xsyncs and panels coming in at Ocing to up to 200Hz stock now seems most people will opt for a name brand jobber..

    For me, Xsyncs would be nice, but with my lucks they probably will never come in with the form factor i would prefer.
    27" is too big for my liking, 1080p - while still relevant for people who don't want to buy $1200 dollars in video cards, like me, is and never was a consideration. 1080p is just gimp.
    If i buy a panel today i cannot justify not going at least 1440p. But even 16:10 1200p is the lowest i would want to go.
    I would rather 25" or 24" 1440p. So. For people like that, and people who just want, or need to mod, this is still relevant.

    I also was thinking it would be cool to be able to have like a switch box, where you could switch between the native board and the modded pass through. Then you could still have osd native functions for "work" related tasks, and switch to pure oc for gaming ect. I would be ok for now using say Adaptive refresh in the Nvidia driver or even Adaptive Half Refresh depending on the game and still have smoother gameplay than without. At 240Hz with Adaptive Half Refresh, that would still be a smooth 120fps if you could maintain it. Or a smooth 60fps at 120Hz if that was all you could push.

    Anyway, misc ramblings. I just want my fw900's back :cry:
     
  8. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    Pin count doesn't matter. 92 is a common configuration with a 51 pin plus a 41pin. As long as you can make/modify a cable for it.
    LM250WQ1-SSA1 is a 14ms panel, woudn't bother with it. Same with M238DAN01. FWIW, I tested an M320DVN01 to ~110Hz.

    2ch lvds will work, but it is limited in usefulness. Sure, you can get an image on the panel, but when you can't overclock that much, swapping boards around is pointless.

    I agree, I missed the window of opportunity here. The number of preorders shows that. At this point, I'll be filling the preorders faster than expected by just hand-soldering up a small number of boards.
     
  9. Dr_Drache

    Dr_Drache n00b

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    what about the driver pixel-clock limits imposed by the OE's drivers?
    they are not on DP - or in some cases HDMI - but is still FIRMLY in place. (meaning to anyone trying to get past this ~300mhz clock - driver patching is required) (nvidia and AMD both) (27" 1440p ABOVE 75hz)

    DL is about as compatible with all graphics cards as much as DP is compatible with all graphics cards. (or more correctly, there are LESS cards coming out with DLDVI than DP)
    I agree with the DLDVI being a pair of HDMI sharing a single clock - but that brings me to the first point - you still have the software imposed limits by the OE's - they are moving onto HDMI/DP

    the disconnect of DP - i haven't experienced in quite a long time. I honestly can't tell you the last time it happen on any of my systems.

    I think in general DLDVI's true time has passed (to soon in some people's opinions) - and like the VGA - it will stick around too long.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  10. geok1ng

    geok1ng 2[H]4U

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    The P2416D is one of the cheapest 1440p screens capable of pivoting, hence a natural candidate for DiY overcloking.
     
  11. KG-Prime90

    KG-Prime90 Limp Gawd

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    Hmn, well i always understood it as most ips are 12-16 ms native, but forgot about not having overdrive which in most cases is what pushes these panels into 5 or 4 ms range. The panels in the Acer 144Hz Xb and the Eizo Foris 27 are 12 ms gtg panels, at least that is what is stated on panelook. But then they have overdrive. Unless this is not always the case anymore. For a long time at least it was commonly stated that tn panels were basically 5ms and ips were about 16ms native and overdrive is what makes them faster. Maybe that's fundamentally changed in the last decade, at least in some panels today. I had always looked at response times with this in mind.

    That 32" you stated seems to be a native 7/5 t/r t/d ms average, = 12ms rise + fall?
    I concede that i basically know nothing too entirely technical about them, i've read shit over the last decade, but my interest in them has always been to see them die.

    Anyway, so i guess the best idea is to just pick a panel first, and basically build a monitor.
    Still an option i suppose, if it's not too much of a pain to source everything. Seems no way around having more than one monitor. Tn for gaming if i want anything close to the crts i've been using for the last, well 20 years, and and Ips for color work. They both suck so intolerably bad though that having even one on my desk is annoying. I don't like being defeated into submission, so thinking about buying two destroys my soul.
    Incidentally, what glossy panel is that in the video?
     
  12. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    Stupid question...

    but the star of the show on this board is the LVDS controller chip, and it being an IC, it can be overclocked...

    What's the chance of slapping a heatsink on this thing and pumping more volts through it and pushing it to 300Hz+?
     
  13. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    Yeah, around 12ms seems to be the realistic norm for many ips on the market now. There are a few that are legitimately 4ms.

    I am looking into offering whole monitors based on M270HHF-L10, but given the lack of success with this preorder thing (four unconfirmed orders to date), I'm not sure if it will happen.

    When you are willing to have two monitors and switch between them, picking a panel becomes pretty easy. You can't currently get faster than M270HHF-L10 + this board and there are lots of good-looking options if you drop the requirement of being fast.

    The glossy panel that you see is an M320DVN01 based monitor with a glass cover. It was free, so I use it but don't particularly care for it.
     
  14. geok1ng

    geok1ng 2[H]4U

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    I can not get excited over the M270HHF-L10. 27" 1080p because without a strobing backlight it is too niche:
    -if i want less blur, a strobing backlight will be better than 240Hz-no strobe.
    -if i want less input lag, TN panels are within sppiting distance
    -you would neeed to drive costs down a lot to compete with the TNs and the Strobed offers, which is kind of hard using a $150 board.
    -Add a strobing backlight and costs skyrocket, you have a very low input lag with very low blur monitor, but only 1080p 27".

    here goes my personal value grading, from most to least important features:

    -Strobing backlight
    -120Hz+
    -IPS or VA
    -Low input lag
    -High resolution
    -High pixel density


    My dream PC monitor would be a 24" 2560x1440 IPS panel at 144Hz with a strobing backlight and no input lag.
    The next best thing would be a 4k 35" at 60Hz with a true 120hz+ strobe mode at 1080p, running over HDMI 2.0 with acceptable input lag.
    The meehhh solution woudl be a 34" 3440x1440 @120Hz with a strobing backlight .

    Of my 3 wishes, the 4k 60hz+1080p 240hz dream TV is the one that your board better handles, so grab a Seiki 39", make it work with your board, shut up and take my money!
     
  15. PCMRShadowWolf

    PCMRShadowWolf n00b

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    Would this work with a laptop panel? I'm planning to use one for my next PC.
     
  16. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    Sorry to hear about the slow start. I think a LOT of people are hesitant/unwilling to break apart their expensive monitors to find a panel part number. That, and a LOT of enthusiasts who can afford to risk voiding their monitor's warranty have abandoned 1080p and moved to 1440p or 4K, and this controller board does not really shake up the scene at those resolutions. 1080p is seen as a 'casual' resolution by many, and there are quite a few high-end, ultra-wide 1440p monitors with 100+ hertz refresh rates. Yeah, they cost $1k+ but they exist and have a market.

    For what it's worth, I shared this thread and your first video on the Unreal Tournament forums, which is filled with a ton of people who believe that 60FPS is 'unplayable' and think 120Hz is the minimum bar-of-entry for playing games. Hopefully this can help get some more sales for you. I'm happy with 60FPS, but I would LOVE to play 120FPS or higher, but my use-case (4K) does not fall under this board's feature list.

    Pairing up with a smaller monitor manufacturer like Overlord may be your best bet to get this board widely distributed, or alternatively give people links to distributors' sites for the purchase of bare panels that you know play nice with the board.

    Another thing is that I know there are some TVs that advertise ridiculous panel refresh speeds (I think I've seen a TV with '600Hz' as a buzzword) but these TVs only accept a HDMI input of 60Hz and perform 'software' frame interpolation. If these panels are even remotely capable of pushing out 200+ hertz, we need to know about it so this board has yet more options for deployment.


    Just thinking out-loud, because I would really like to see this board become a success.
     
  17. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    The 600Hz etc is a visual processing rate or an AC power method (like a plasma needs to use because it does not have a DC on state).
    You can more or less ignore it unless comparing TVs from the same mfr when interested in how smooth sport looks.
    It doesnt specifically define how good anything is, only reviews will.
     
  18. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    I know that entirely. The question is not 'how good does it look' but rather 'how much truth is there to claiming the panel can ACTUALLY handle a ~600Hz refresh'. In the end, by using this board, you eliminate the pre-processing, and have direct access to the panel. If the panel can handle 600Hz, then damn!
     
  19. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    The panels are not 600Hz capable.
    Its all marketing.

    The visual processing is simply that, processing. At 600Hz or whatever number they can associate with frames processed.
    The processing is not performed on screen. The result of the processing is fed to the screen at its native refresh rate.
     
  20. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    Damn. I knew that they could only receive a 60Hz input, but I was hoping there was SOME truth to that "600Hz" number.
     
  21. Zyklon808

    Zyklon808 Limp Gawd

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    This, so much this. Seiki 39" way to go if this board coiuld work in it.
     
  22. cskippy

    cskippy n00b

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    Get in contact with Mark Rejhon over at Blurbusters.com. I know he posted an article about this back in 2013 but there was an NDA with the chip being used. If you are considering selling this as a mod, he would be a great person to talk to. This is just in it's infancy, and I'm sure that many others, including myself, would snap this up in a heartbeat if it was possibly streamlined to a set monitor that has the best specs for this application, and you would provide a kit with complete instructions. This would take the guess work out of this whole thing and would prove the concept to more people.

    Please keep this alive.
     
  23. Odellus

    Odellus [H]ard|Gawd

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    there is truth to it, just not the truth you're looking for.
     
  24. bizude

    bizude n00b

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    If it can be confirmed that your product will work with FreeSync, I would be very interested in it.

    BUT... I need that confirmation first. I can't go back to a non-sync monitor
     
  25. TriAngleChoke

    TriAngleChoke n00b

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    Is this compatible with my:
    Asus VG248QE 24-inch Full HD Ergonomic Back-lit LED Gaming Monitor?
    Another question does this means with this ZisWorks 240Hz DVI board, Is it going to be a "0 ms delay response time?" Because my current monitor is 1ms delay response time.
     
  26. coolhandm3

    coolhandm3 Limp Gawd

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    This is great!

    Would this be able to work on my 1080p LG oled tv? It would be nice to get no input lag on it, please let me know and I will preorder!

    Also does this require soldering?
     
  27. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    I do support strobing and does not add much inherent cost to a design.

    Sorry, but when I'm trying to sell single and double-digit counts of boards, the design and testing time is a lot more than the raw parts. If I sold these by the thousands, prices would be a lot lower.

    You want 144Hz framerate. That's 7ms. The fastest ips panels on the market have a worst-case transition time of more than 7ms (yes, even ones that are claimed "4ms"). That's why you need to lower the framerate to get strobing. It is a tradeoff.

    I don't think you're in the only-care-about-raw-speed group that a 270Hz monitor is aimed at.

    I'm looking into the innolux panels used in the 39" seikis. No promises.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  28. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    Older ones, sure, but they're mostly 2ch. Some medium/lower resolution laptop panels can OC fairly well. I have my mom's T60 edid-modded to 120hz and my t520 did 180Hz@1680*1050.

    newer ones are switching to eDP for fewer wires and can be often be run directly through a connector-adapter. I made a board for the 12.85" 2560*1700 IPS @ 72Hz for a client who tried to get a kickstarter going with it, but the kickstarter did not get funded. There are similar boards avalable through ebay now.
     
  29. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    Thanks. My betatester is a Russian Quake-fiend haha.

    I don't think Overlord is still around.

    Most of those TVs are 120hz with 60->120Hz FRC and other marketing gimmicks to claim big numbers. When the FRC is located before the TCON, the TV is moddable.
     
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  30. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    In this case, the limit is the panel. The PLL on the chip loses lock at around 700MHz pixelclock. It has a separate power rail, but I don't think the gains will be significant.
     
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  31. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    Take it apart and show me the TCON.
     
  32. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    As am I. Still waiting on a driver which enables FreeSync over HDMI.
     
  33. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    Yes, it can be made to work. I have a beta-tester which has used your panel with my controller.

    Unfortunately while 240Hz is likely doable (tested two panels, both did 240hz), the AUO M240HW01V8 has a white-out issue where the screen will go all-white when displaying dark images when heavily overclocked. This begins to occur around 160-210Hz, limiting the usefulness of the mod. I believe that this has to do with power/safety limits in the TCON, but I have not investigated further into fixing this issue.

    This mod will *not* improve the pixel response time of the panel, which is what you are referring to with the "1ms delay" value. The pixel response time of the panel is an inherent characteristic of the panel and describes how quickly a pixel can change based on a new input.

    I don't mean to insult, but if you had to ask about the response time, the mod is probably not a good choice for you.
     
  34. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    It does require splicing wires. Soldering can be nice but is not necessary.

    The only LG OLED TCON that I've seen looks rather 'smart' with no documentation. not a good mix. Unless you want to put some serious hours into really hacking it, probably no.
     
  35. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    There was no external NDA, but I am under NDA on the details of the chips, so I can't opensource it or share the microcontroller source without breaking that NDA. Mark has given me permission to use his forums for promoting and supporting my boards.

    I am looking into offering the 1080p@270HZ as a full monitor. There are lots of people not willing to mod.
     
  36. cskippy

    cskippy n00b

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    Awesome! Yeah I could do the mod but I like the idea of just purchasing a "turn key" solution. Good luck with everything and keep us updated.
     
  37. raclimj

    raclimj Gawd

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    If you could make this mod work with Dell P2416D, I will sign up for preorder.

    Or can you sell me an already modded Dell P2416D that overclocks to atleast 144Hz.
     
  38. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    I now have a 27" housing mechanical design finished. Very simple design. Getting quotes for manufacturing.


    I have not tested this panel and do not offer guarantees of overclocking any panels.

    If you send a picture of the TCON, I can at least try to crossrefernce it with what I know of LG panels to see if it is worth exploring.
     
  39. geok1ng

    geok1ng 2[H]4U

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    Unfortunately i purchased an extended warranty for my Dell U2515H, which in terms used in my countru states that i have the right to claim a new monitor if a single pixel dies during the warranty. Not a chance in hell that i would open it just to discover what is the connector used on the LM250WQ1-SSA1 .

    If you want to purchase panels and build a monitor from scratch, it is good news that adding strobing do not increase the bill of materials too much.

    If you want just sell the OC board, the less complex the modification, the better.

    Value of going from 30Hz to 60Hz is off the charts: turns a TV that is only suited for watching movies at 4k into a general purpose monitor.
    Value of going from 60Hz to 120Hz: at 4k, would be state of art; at 1440p would be excellent; at 1080p, meehhh.
    Value of going from 60Hz to 240Hz : probably not much better than 120Hz, but with massive bragging rights. But few 1080p IPS panels can do it without artifacts.

    I do not understand much about pixel timings or overdrive. Math tells me that a 12ms GtG means 83Hz without overdrive. Somewhere else [H]ere a BlurMaster told me that ~90Hz is the bare minimum for use strobing. So we can put most of the slow and cheap 1440p panels cited above out of the business plan.

    I 100% agree with the engineer: currently the panels that most benefit from this board are the 1080p with fast pixels and the 4k panels handicapped by 30Hz boards.
     
  40. cirthix

    cirthix Limp Gawd

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    There are TCON limitations with this panel.

    I am looking at alternative TCONs.


    Great news: latest version of DP2LVDS has better signal integrity characteristics and can operate in the HBR2/5.4Gbps DP1.2 mode. Using 1080p240 over DP now. Will get a radeon graphics card to check freesync operation ASAP.