No DirectX 12 for Windows 7

D

DPI

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Not exactly a surprising move, but surprising for a time Microsoft seemed like it was finally waking up to the idea it cannot continue to coast on "business as usual." Once again artificially holding back PC graphics by fragmenting DirectX behind the windows paywall, despite their continual statements about their "enduring commitment to PC gaming".

Speaking at a PDXLAN presentation earlier this month, AMD's Chief Gaming Scientist Richard Huddy said Windows 7 remains Microsoft's most popular operating system: 52 percent of all Microsoft OS users are still on Windows 7, and that number is actually growing. "It's a very, very popular operating system," he said in comments starting around the 20:30 mark of the video.

But in spite of that, or perhaps because of it, he continued, "One thing that's not going to happen to it is DX12. Yup, DX12 is not coming to Windows 7."
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The Steam hardware survey confirms the popularity of Windows 7—47.8 percent of users run the 64-bit version, compared to 21.4 percent for the second-place finisher, Windows 8.1 64-bit
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http://www.pcgamer.com/directx-12-will-not-be-supported-by-windows-7/
 
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I'm sure most people on WIndows 8 react to this with "well, I'm covered" but here's the bigger picture issue that affects everyone: once again, most developers will just end up targeting the lowest common denominator DirectX version in order to reach the widest possible install base. This creates a chilling effect because all but the biggest AAA developers can't afford to build their game around the latest/greatest DX.
 
I said the same thing about DirectX 10 for XP and nobody cared because XP was old and people were using 7 anyways. Same stunt, different OS
 
not surprising but isn't DX12 a minor upgrade with the biggest new feature being better multi-core support?...wasn't DX11 the last 'major' version of DirectX?
 
DPI said:
I'm sure most people on WIndows 8 react to this with "well, I'm covered" but here's the bigger picture issue that affects everyone: once again, most developers will just end up targeting the lowest common denominator DirectX version in order to reach the widest possible install base. This creates a chilling effect because all but the biggest AAA developers can't afford to build their game around the latest/greatest DX.
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It's not that simple. The XBox One will support DX 12. Windows 7 will be six years old by the time Windows 10 and DX 12 come out and we don't know what the upgrade pricing will be for Windows 10. Given what Microsoft has been doping recently with regards to its pricing, like the XBox that now seems to be selling a lot better due to aggressive pricing, the upgrade pricing for Windows 10 even for Windows 7 users will probably be unlike historical norms.
 
PornoSatan said:
I said the same thing about DirectX 10 for XP and nobody cared because XP was old and people were using 7 anyways. Same stunt, different OS
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Windows 7 isn't exactly old at this point, though.

polonyc2 said:
not surprising but isn't DX12 a minor upgrade with the biggest new feature being better multi-core support?...wasn't DX11 the last 'major' version of DirectX?
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I thought it was supposed to bring "Mantle-like" performance?
 
so DX12 releases in lets say October 2015...that means 2017 we should start to see a majority of DX12 games...with Windows 10 actually being a decent upgrade this time around (as opposed to Windows 8) I think the majority of gamers will have W10 by 2017
 
They've basically given Mantle a leg up on Windows 7 and gaming. This might come to bite them in the ass later on. Time will tell if it was a good or bad decision..
 
heatlesssun said:
It's not that simple. The XBox One will support DX 12. Windows 7 will be six years old by the time Windows 10 and DX 12 come out and we don't know what the upgrade pricing will be for Windows 10. Given what Microsoft has been doping recently with regards to its pricing, like the XBox that now seems to be selling a lot better due to aggressive pricing, the upgrade pricing for Windows 10 even for Windows 7 users will probably be unlike historical norms.
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Except it is that simple. It may well be that Microsoft offers aggressive introductory upgrade pricing for previous Windows versions (XP, Vista, 7), no disagreement there, but doesn't change the fact Windows7 will be the most popular Windows for the foreseeable future even after Win10 launches, and that developers will continue to target DX11 or even DX9 to reach the widest possible install base. Despite what you may believe people will not be flocking to Win10 the way they did to Win7 after Vista, the damage has been done. I understand Microsoft wants people off Windows7 ASAP, so I don't blame them for this move, but that doesn't mean customers are going to like it or respond to it.

As for Xbox One, not sure what the point is or how that's relevant because despite all the marketing hype and PR people seem to buy into about the new consoles being "just PC's, bro" in fact its not running DX11 as we know it on Windows x86, but its own highly customized rendition of it. Just like its not actually running Windows8 but, again, its own highly customized and stripped down rendition of it. I liken this argument to all the people that believed AMD GPU's would somehow benefit on the Windows PC side in terms of efficiency running PC titles, because AMD branded hardware happened to be both new consoles. Didn't happen. Won't happen, because consoles v PC is still apples v. oranges due to so many other variables.
 
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It's not surprising, if DX12 came out for Win7 I don't think I'd even consider Win10. I think Win10 is OK but I still want Aero in the GUI so I'd rather not upgrade, I hate (yes literally hate) how the GUI looks in Win 8 and 10. The flatness of it reminds me more of Windows 1.0 than a successor to windows 7.
 
DPI said:
Except it is that simple. It may well be that Microsoft offers aggressive introductory upgrade pricing for previous Windows versions (XP, Vista, 7), no disagreement there, but doesn't change the fact Windows7 will be the most popular Windows for the foreseeable future even after Win10 launches, and that developers will continue to target DX11 or even DX9 to reach the widest possible install base.
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Again, we don't know the pricing for 10. Given the aggressiveness of Microsoft with other products recently, it's going to be lower that Windows 8 and it could be free for Windows 7 users. Without knowing how the upgrade pricing works all that can be done in this thread is guess work at this point.

Plus, while Windows 7 may remain popular in the enterprise world for years to come, I don't see that happening with gaming with a release cycle that's historic for being a good one, versus that of 8 being of the notorious bad variety.

7 is just getting up there. People buying new games and new hardware for PCs don't cling to old OSes. Even Windows 8.x is doing well among gamers compared to the general population.
 
If the Xbox One will use Dx12 then AAA games will be made for Dx12, it's that simple.
 
polonyc2 said:
so DX12 releases in lets say October 2015...that means 2017 we should start to see a majority of DX12 games...with Windows 10 actually being a decent upgrade this time around (as opposed to Windows 8) I think the majority of gamers will have W10 by 2017
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I agree with this. My main rig is purely gaming so I think by the time games are consistently releasing with dx12 I'll be ready. Sadly currently you won't find better support for multi monitor and sli than with windows 7
 
I suspect that Windows 10 will be a lot cheaper than the $99 or so people expect. That will soften this a bit.
 
Quix said:
I suspect that Windows 10 will be a lot cheaper than the $99 or so people expect. That will soften this a bit.
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Especially for college students and Grads. I still have email access from the university I graduated from in 2008. I assume they let you keep your .edu address when you finish school. What makes this fantastic is you can get tons of cheap software when registering with your .edu email address. I have no shame in using this to my advantage :D
 
Tgrove said:
I agree with this. My main rig is purely gaming so I think by the time games are consistently releasing with dx12 I'll be ready. Sadly currently you won't find better support for multi monitor and sli than with windows 7
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My sig rig is old has 3x SLI 3D multi-monitor I think works as well or better with 8.1 than 7 with these technologies. Windows 8.x gets a lot of heat for not being desktop friendly but the multiple monitor taskbar is a significant in the box improvement over 7.
 
naticus said:
If the Xbox One will use Dx12 then AAA games will be made for Dx12, it's that simple.
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Many games developed for PC will not have an Xbox One version, so what Xbox One happens to use will be irrelevant in a lot of cases. As well, DirectX on Windows PC and "DirectX" on Xbox One may be both branded "DirectX" but the differences in how they execute on each platform are as drastic as vast as the diff between Windows on x86 and Windows on ARM.

Bottom line: DX12 being kept off of Win7 is an artificial limitation. It artificially holds back the advancement of graphics and graphics performance simply because Microsoft wants to motivate upgrades. Good for Microsoft (if it works), shitty for gamers.
 
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DPI said:
Many games developed for PC will not have an Xbox One version, so what Xbox One happens to use will be irrelevant in a lot of cases.
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Not for AAA titles. Windows 7 will be irrelevant in these cases being 5 years older than the XBox One.
 
PornoSatan said:
I said the same thing about DirectX 10 for XP and nobody cared because XP was old and people were using 7 anyways. Same stunt, different OS
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Actually, DirectX 10 shipped with Vista in 2007, two years before Win 7. Microsoft's big incentive to get gamers to upgrade to Vista was to make Halo 2 a DirectX 10 only game. Much to Microsoft's embarrassment, those filthy pirates reversed Microsoft's lazy hack, allowing Halo 2 run on WinXP and DirectX 9.

So, nobody cared about DirectX 10 because it was a long time before the next Dx10-only game came out. I'm trying to think of what games don't run on DX9 now... Okay, I had to Google that and the list of pre-DX11 games that were DX10-only is very damned short: Just Cause 2, Renegade Ops, Shattered Horizon, StormRise. and Sword of the Stars II: The Lords of Winter.

After DX11 came out in 2009, a number of games had no DX9 support and had DX10 support provided by DX11. If you sort that list by release date, it becomes apparent that those games didn't start dropping DX9 support until late 2011, a full five years after DX10 shipped and two years after DX11 shipped.

So, you can see where I'm going with this. DirectX 12 won't get released until Windows 10 ships in 2015, so I would not expect DX10 support to be dropped before 2020, and DX11 support to be dropped for much, much longer than that since it's in the XBox One.
 
evilsofa said:
So, you can see where I'm going with this. DirectX 12 won't get released until Windows 10 ships in 2015, so I would not expect DX10 support to be dropped before 2020, and DX11 support to be dropped for much, much longer than that since it's in the XBox One.
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It won't even be out that soon, because last hints from Microsoft put it at a "late 2015" release, with the first DX12 games appearing "December 2015". Maybe they'll try including a half baked version of it in the Win10 launch - with the intention of improving it later - similar to the Xbox One launching feature incomplete and then adding missing features over time.

Meanwhile, to your point, agreed and even more tragically consider that games based even on DX9 have come out recently as this year (Dark Souls 2, off top of head).

Something really needs to come along to democratize the renderer and break Microsoft's bullshit cycle, so that everyone can run latest/greatest renderer version regardless of platform and features are limited only by GPU capabilities rather than an arbitrary paywall. Whether that eventually be SteamOS/OpenGL or something else, it needs to happen.
 
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DPI said:
Something really needs to come along to democratize the renderer and break Microsoft's bullshit cycle, so that everyone can run latest/greatest renderer version regardless of platform and features are limited only by GPU capabilities rather than an arbitrary paywall. Whether that eventually be SteamOS/OpenGL or something else, it needs to happen.
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Better yet, let's democratize GPUs and CPUs so that everyone has the latest hardware to push all of this stuff. It's beyond silly to complain about a $100 bucks in an OS that's supposed to power multiple thousands of dollars in hardware and games. If I were to put it to vote, democratically, I bet the free GPU, CPU side would win in a heartbeat.

And no matter who democratizes in your view, be damn sure someone is monitizing it some how. Steam wants everyone buying games from them, taking their 30% cut. It's just dishonest to act like any of these profitable companies are concerned about democratizing a damned thing. There are trying to make money. Just be real about that.
 
AMD once claimed that there would be no DX12. And that AMD customers would receive a frame pacing driver for D3D9 titles.

Until you hear it from Microsoft, or a hardware vendor with a reputation for truthfulness, there really shouldn't be any discussion about it.

naticus said:
If the Xbox One will use Dx12 then AAA games will be made for Dx12, it's that simple.
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Considering D3D12 is reportedly identical across the PC and the X1, this is a likely scenario. But many developers will still wish to support DX11 for some time after Windows 10 is released.
 
Meh... not surprising here, Microsoft did this in the past, no big deal really.

I like Windows 7 but its time to move on, hopefully Microsoft won't fuck up Windows 10.
 
Doesn't bother me at all. I'll use an SSD for Windows 7 and a separate SSD for Windows 10. When I want to run games that use DirectX 12 just reboot then change boot drive in BIOS. Problem solved.
 
I'm ok with it. I've used windows 7 long enough. Windows 10 GUI I can tolerate. I would like it if had an aero option.
 
Game developers should go back to OpenGL for PC gaming. It's already what all other non MS devices use.
 
Hello everyone,

Just wanted to share with you the below statement we've issued in regards to this topic:

“There have been reports based on a video of Richard Huddy of AMD making speculative comments around DirectX 12 support on versions of Windows. Richard Huddy does not speak for Microsoft, and he was unfortunately speculating from Microsoft’s publication of key dates and milestones for Windows 7 lifecycle and mainstream support policy. Richard has no special insight into Microsoft’s Windows or DirectX roadmaps. Microsoft is a key, strategic partner for AMD and we’re continuously collaborating with them on DirectX 12.”
 
polonyc2 said:
not surprising but isn't DX12 a minor upgrade with the biggest new feature being better multi-core support?...wasn't DX11 the last 'major' version of DirectX?
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No, there are major API changes, like 9 to 10.

Quix said:
I suspect that Windows 10 will be a lot cheaper than the $99 or so people expect. That will soften this a bit.
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It's not particularly difficult to get a key for like $20 if you have no qualms about less noble avenues.
 
socK said:
It's not particularly difficult to get a key for like $20 if you have no qualms about less noble avenues.
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I doubt that Windows 10 upgrades will cost anywhere near $20 even for Windows 7 users. For whatever reason people seem to forget that the OS upgrade business just isn't that big for Microsoft. Now that Microsoft has an app store and other services it can sell to consumers it might even work in Microsoft's financial favor to just give away upgrades and get more revenue from the store and services by bringing along as many Windows 7 users as possible and there's better way to do that than free upgrades.

Of course there will be those that would complain that Microsoft is ramming the apps and services down people's throats but if the upgrade is free and optional, so what? It's hard to argue agent free.
 
Warsam71 said:
Hello everyone,

Just wanted to share with you the below statement we've issued in regards to this topic:

“There have been reports based on a video of Richard Huddy of AMD making speculative comments around DirectX 12 support on versions of Windows. Richard Huddy does not speak for Microsoft, and he was unfortunately speculating from Microsoft’s publication of key dates and milestones for Windows 7 lifecycle and mainstream support policy. Richard has no special insight into Microsoft’s Windows or DirectX roadmaps. Microsoft is a key, strategic partner for AMD and we’re continuously collaborating with them on DirectX 12.”
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Okay folks, thread's over. Nothing to see here, move along.
 
evilsofa said:
Okay folks, thread's over. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Hardly. This story makes the rounds, bad PR weary Microsoft angrily calls AMD, AMD throws own employee under the bus. Doesn't mean what the employee said is untrue, only means that he didn't authorization from his employer to make public comments about privileged information involving a partner under mutual NDA.

I think the source is absolutely reliable... He's working with Microsoft on DX12 on behalf of AMD so I doubt he just pulled the idea out of his ass, and privileged conversations with Microsoft engineers about the future of DX wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility -- he just wasn't allowed to discuss or disseminate them publicly.

Put it this way, if it definitively wasn't true, Microsoft could have just had their PR team immediately deny it. I think the silence is telling. So what MS will likely do now is not say anything until they actually ship DX12, because there's no upside for them to announce the Windows versions that will get DX12 support (and by deduction, which won't) sooner than they have to.
 
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He's not saying "thread's over" because he necessarily believes the claim not to be true. He's saying "thread's over" because the source of the story is, and always was, completely unreliable, which makes it a speculation thread. I said as much in post 24, before Warsam posted AMD's response.

It's time to start paying attention to the details.
 
wonderfield said:
He's not saying "thread's over" because he necessarily believes the claim not to be true. He's saying "thread's over" because the source of the story is, and always was, completely unreliable, which makes it a speculation thread. I said as much in post 24, before Warsam posted AMD's response.
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Curious why you think the source is "completely unreliable"? Because his employer's PR department had MS lawyers breathing down their neck, compelling them to officially disavow the employee's statements? Again, the guy had already been working with Microsoft at the time he made the comments. Something tells me had somewhat of a clue. Read between the lines.

wonderfield said:
It's time to start paying attention to the details.
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I agree. But whether or not this warrants further discussion is a personal decision you have to make - you're free to stop posting at any time.
 
There's no need to read between the lines when the lines themselves tell you everything you need to know. Unless, of course, your biases and emotional needs demand that you seek out a conspiracy where there is none.
 
DPI said:
Curious why you think the source is "completely unreliable"? Because his employer's PR department said he didn't have permission to speak on behalf of the company? Again, the guy had already been working with Microsoft at the time he made the comments. Something tells me had somewhat of a clue. Read between the lines.



I agree. But whether or not this warrants further discussion is a personal decision you have to make - you're free to stop posting at any time.
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Support of DX12 in 7 is at best a side issue. A much bigger issue is upgrade pricing for Windows 7 users. This guy might very well know what he's talking about but he probably doesn't have any knowledge about Windows 10 upgrade pricing.

If Windows 10 upgrades from 7 are free then this thread is moot as not even the biggest Microsoft hater could complain about DX 12 not being in 7 if the latest version of Windows is a free upgrade.

I have no special information. All I know is that while people like you are complaining about Windows paywalls and such, Windows 8.1 is now free on virtually all low end PCs and that's a hell of lot more end users than those who will give a shit about DX 12.
 
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