New Upgrade Advice - Finally that time

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Dayvon

Weaksauce
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
117
It's been awhile since I've upgraded my HTPC... If it works for you, why change it ya know? Recently I purchased Skyrim and my system JUST squeaked by with enough performance to make it doable. I enjoyed the game and the visual experience enough, but I knew days for my current setup were numbered.

Enter today when I'm playing the Guild Wars 2 Beta. Now, I get how the game is not optimized and performance will likely be better than it is currently, but this game I believe will tax my system more than anything else I've done before. And I really want to game this game well.

Let's talk about the problem. Specifically when the game has a significant number of players on screen (think like 50), my FPS drops to like 2-4fps. I mean straight up slide show. Nearly impossible to play at all. It might be all the particle effects as well because battle obviously is the worst. The normal PvE experience with few players on screen and no battle is definitely an acceptable rate (above 24fps). And anything inbetween varies from 15-30.

My current setup I think is in my sig, but to outline it:
I run a 1920x1080 42" LCD
Windows XP 32bit
Intel G33 Mobo
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.13 - OCed to 3GHZ
4GB DDR2-800
nvidia 9600GT ~512GBram

I know how to build and I know what's good and a full system upgrade (MicroATX motherboard, i7, 16GB ram, 6870) would cost around 700-800 bucks. 900 when you consider a Windows 7 OEM disc as well. And that's definitely too much.

So the big question is: WHAT DO I NEED TO UPGRADE MOST?
The graphics solution would be $150 or so for a 6870 or equivalent. But would that do it? Is RAM the issue? I could spring for this mobo and this RAM, have 8GB of DDR3 for ~$100 bucks and then pick up Windows 7 for $100. In total that would be a massive upgrade and only for ~$350...

But is the 3GHz Core2Duo just not gonna cut it anymore? Overall, it would seem to me that it should be theoretically fast enough for most things, but is MMO battle just too tasking on a CPU? I don't know, and I'm looking for advice so that I don't waste time upgrading things I don't need.

Bottom Line: I will probably order a graphics card no matter what cause this 9600GT is overdue for retirement anyway, and any card I buy, I can put in any build. So that's done. Beyond that, if needing to upgrade more.... RAM only for $250 and stick with my C2D? Or jump to i5/i7 CPU mobo and RAM for ~$550?
 
In upgrading your objective is to address your bottleneck, the component that is holding your system back. In your system your bottleneck for gaming begins at the GPU, however, after that is replaced your bottleneck will be your CPU, and if you upgrade that, your bottleneck will then be your RAM. Upgrading may not be the best option for you. Consider selling your system, and use that money to buy a used system on the [H]ard|Forum For Sale pages. With Ivy-Bridge on the horizon, this is prime time for it.

**Bottom Line** Buy used and you will be sooooo much better off.
 
8gb RAM runs closer to $50. I've seen it as low as $35 recently. Since your budget is limited, I'd suggest you upgrade your video card first, and worry about the motherboard/CPU later. The RAM is the cheapest upgrade component.

You'll find the CPU bottlenecks your video card depending on the game, but you should still get a considerable performance improvement through the gpu upgrade. A 3ghz C2D isn't terrible for modern games.

At a later point, when budget permits you can get a crossfirex motherboard & CPU, and not only push your 6870 to its limits, but have a.cheap upgrade path foe graphics with an additional 6870 down the line.
 
Tactical_Strike said:
In upgrading your objective is to address your bottleneck, the component that is holding your system back. In your system your bottleneck for gaming begins at the GPU, however, after that is replaced your bottleneck will be your CPU, and if you upgrade that, your bottleneck will then be your RAM. Upgrading may not be the best option for you. Consider selling your system, and use that money to buy a used system on the [H]ard|Forum For Sale pages. With Ivy-Bridge on the horizon, this is prime time for it.

**Bottom Line** Buy used and you will be sooooo much better off.
Click to expand...

Problem with this is that I want to stay in my current case and form factor (MicroATX), which would mean less possible for used. My goal is gaming, but compromised by the form factor and HTPC limitations.
 
efishta said:
8gb RAM runs closer to $50. I've seen it as low as $35 recently.
Click to expand...
True, however to utilize the 8GB I'd need 1) a new Mobo (current limited to 4GB), and 2) Windows 7.

efishta said:
Since your budget is limited, I'd suggest you upgrade your video card first, and worry about the motherboard/CPU later. The RAM is the cheapest upgrade component.

You'll find the CPU bottlenecks your video card depending on the game, but you should still get a considerable performance improvement through the gpu upgrade. A 3ghz C2D isn't terrible for modern games.

At a later point, when budget permits you can get a crossfirex motherboard & CPU, and not only push your 6870 to its limits, but have a.cheap upgrade path foe graphics with an additional 6870 down the line.
Click to expand...

I agree that the vid card upgrade is a nobrainer. It needs to happen. I would hope that a 3GHz C2D would be good enough to be at or above system recommendations. I don't plan on trying to max out eye candy either.
 
What PSU do you have? No point in upgrading if your current PSU is of too low quality, age, or amperage/wattage to handle new parts. Is your current PSU that XClio?
 
Tactical_Strike said:
you say you have a budget what is that? $500
Click to expand...
Eh... At this point financially $500 is the far upper limit. I for sure can probably do like $150-200 for a graphics card. Beyond that, I mean spending $100 more (mobo and 2x4GB) to hit DDR3 8GB RAM isn't necessarily out of reach. Of course to my knowledge, this also requires a upgrade to Windows 7 to be able to use all 8GB, which is an additional $100. So moving from WinXP 4GB DDR2 to Win7 8GB DDR3 would cost me roughly $200. I *might* be able to do that. But will 8GB in Windows 7, from 4GB in Windows XP help my gaming performance? I'm guessing not significantly.

But that's why I came here anyway for counter opinions like yours! Which I appreciate the used idea, and I may look into that for when I can scramble $500 or so together for a core system (CPU, mobo & ram) upgrade.
 
Danny Bui said:
What PSU do you have? No point in upgrading if your current PSU is of too low quality, age, or amperage/wattage to handle new parts. Is your current PSU that XClio?
Click to expand...
This is true...

I want to say no to this, but honestly, I'm not sure. It could be. I feel like I upgraded around the same time as when I got the 9600GT. I check it out when I get home.
 
Ahh I remember that PSU: I'd replace it. It's an old (7 years) CWT model of so-so quality that had Fuhjyyu caps which had a tendency to degrade really quickly when the PSU was pushed. Your current PC is relatively low powered but adding that HD 6870 is definitely gonna push that PSU. Not to mention that XClio never said how much total amperage there was on the +12V rail. As such, there's no actual guarantee it actually has enough power for the PC. So I'd recommend replacing that PSU. I recommend this:
$63 - Antec NEO ECO 520C 520W PSU

We use to recommend that XClio all the time back in 2006 in the General Hardware subforum but stopped after that year when newer and signficantly better quality PSUs began to be sold around that price point (The original Seasonic build Antec Earthwatts PSUs).


Dayvon said:
Of course to my knowledge, this also requires a upgrade to Windows 7 to be able to use all 8GB
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. If you're able to use all 4GB of your current RAM now, than means that you have a 64bit copy of XP. As such, you don't have to upgrade to Windows 7 HP 64bit in order to use 8GB of RAM as your copy of XP can already do so. However if you can't use all 4GB of your current RAM, you probably have a 32bbit copy of XP which means an upgrade to Windows 7 is in order.

Dayvon said:
I *might* be able to do that. But will 8GB in Windows 7, from 4GB in Windows XP help my gaming performance? I'm guessing not significantly.
Click to expand...
Depends on the game you're playing and how many apps you tend to leave running in the background. For BF3 for example, some people are reporting increased smoothness and faster loading times when they upgraded to 8GB of RAM over 4GB of RAM. With that said, for $85, I don't think it's worth it. Especially if it requires you to buy an outdated motherboard.

I'd start with the PSU and GPU upgrade first as those are gonna provide you with the most bang for the buck performance and quality increase. Yes your CPU is an issue but it's less of an issue compared to your relatively slow card. The HD 6870 is a solid choice. I would have recommended the faster GTX 560 card but considering your case and the fact that the GTX 560 runs a little hotter than the HD 6870, it probably wouldn't have been a good idea. In addition, with the solid PSU, you can go on with your later upgrades without having to worry about whether or not your PSU can provide the power.

So start with the PSU and GPU, see how well it performs, and save up your money for the CPU + mobo + RAM upgrades. Only go for the RAM upgrade if you're noticing lots of RAM use.
 
Danny Bui said:
Ahh I remember that PSU: I'd replace it. It's an old (7 years) CWT model of so-so quality that had Fuhjyyu caps which had a tendency to degrade really quickly when the PSU was pushed. Your current PC is relatively low powered but adding that HD 6870 is definitely gonna push that PSU. Not to mention that XClio never said how much total amperage there was on the +12V rail. As such, there's no actual guarantee it actually has enough power for the PC. So I'd recommend replacing that PSU. I recommend this:
$63 - Antec NEO ECO 520C 520W PSU

We use to recommend that XClio all the time back in 2006 in the General Hardware subforum but stopped after that year when newer and signficantly better quality PSUs began to be sold around that price point (The original Seasonic build Antec Earthwatts PSUs).
Click to expand...
^ Why I bought it! :D

I'll look at a PSU update. I really feel like I replaced it, but I can't check ATM.

Danny Bui said:
Not necessarily. If you're able to use all 4GB of your current RAM now, than means that you have a 64bit copy of XP. As such, you don't have to upgrade to Windows 7 HP 64bit in order to use 8GB of RAM as your copy of XP can already do so. However if you can't use all 4GB of your current RAM, you probably have a 32bbit copy of XP which means an upgrade to Windows 7 is in order.
Click to expand...
Yes to the last sentence. I've been putting off the upgrade, and I'm thinking I'll try to wait it out until Windows 8 at this point. Get a good deal through my wife's school on release deals. Seems good.

Danny Bui said:
Depends on the game you're playing and how many apps you tend to leave running in the background. For BF3 for example, some people are reporting increased smoothness and faster loading times when they upgraded to 8GB of RAM over 4GB of RAM. With that said, for $85, I don't think it's worth it. Especially if it requires you to buy an outdated motherboard.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

Danny Bui said:
I'd start with the PSU and GPU upgrade first as those are gonna provide you with the most bang for the buck performance and quality increase. Yes your CPU is an issue but it's less of an issue compared to your relatively slow card. The HD 6870 is a solid choice. I would have recommended the faster GTX 560 card but considering your case and the fact that the GTX 560 runs a little hotter than the HD 6870, it probably wouldn't have been a good idea.
Click to expand...
This is why I thought AMD, since as reviewed it ran cooler. For the current $159 prices, that is tons of GPU power for the $. Especially as I'm only ever gonna push 1920x1080 for max res.

Danny Bui said:
In addition, with the solid PSU, you can go on with your later upgrades without having to worry about whether or not your PSU can provide the power.

So start with the PSU and GPU, see how well it performs, and save up your money for the CPU + mobo + RAM upgrades. Only go for the RAM upgrade if you're noticing lots of RAM use.
Click to expand...
Agreed on both accounts. This was my gut, but thought I could be wrong, because I don't have experience in the high-end (50+ players) MMO scene and if that puts a ton more load on the CPU/Memory. Unless someone else has a compelling argument, I think that I will do the above.

Thanks for the post!
 
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