New Samsung 4k for everyone.

Hey can someone turn the backlight down to 1 and see if there is any eyestrain surfing the web?
120 Hz is extremely low for desktop use.

Can someone confirm Text looks that horrible in GAME mode?

Can someone just do this given low PWM freq is the main possible barrier to purchase? Do low as possible in a dark room. Thanks.


Actual Flicker Free indicates displays use a very high frequency (18-20khz is common) or use direct current. All of the Crossovers tested (27" & 30") in the past three years are flicker free and have proper brightness controls while other companies like Qnix/X-Star have lied about their displays being flicker free (True 10) and the non-Crossover multi-input IPS/PLS panels lack proper brightness controls.

It doesn't cost anything for high freq PWM so while such a low freq does seem silly the reality is it doesn't effect most people. It's very annoying though to find out any particular instance does bother you which is why I asked for some tests of ways to mitigate it.
 
Playerwares will likely have a Crossover 44K review up with oscilloscope measurements in the next few weeks.
It is called Playwares and it is all in Korean, just great.

I did find an english review of a Crossover here
http://www.overclock.net/t/1332252/review-crossover-led-p-2560x1440p-monitors

Here are some quotes

The panel used in these monitors is a LG panel. The same LG panel is also being used in a monitor that is known as the Apple Thunderbolt. Major known manufacturers also use the same panel but we will just use Apple for this example. If anyone has been able to see the Thunderbolt in all its glory, they will tell you that only a few words describes how it looks. "Magnificent" "Vibrant" "Stand Right Out" "Elegant" then there's the words we all despise.... "Too much" "Pricey"
Well there right, take the same tech and slap a apple design and logo they can rightfully charge you that absurd amount of money.

Now what if..... we can have the same technology behind those Thunderbolts and put them in another panel while only costing 1/4th of the price. Wouldn't you want to get one? I know I would! Well I'm writing this review so I must've pulled the trigger! Well it's true, these Korean monitors use exactly what I stated. They have the same panel which makes the Thunderbolt stand out so much and at a quarter of the price. The standards set by apple and other corporations only allow a certain quality of panels to be used in there monitors. These are considered "A+" panels. The panels used in the Korean monitors are what we can consider "Hand me downs". These panels are known as "A" or "A-" panels. Now what they don't tell you is regardless of quality, every panel is susceptible to Dead/Stuck pixels and back-light bleeding. So in essence every panel you purchase has the possibility of being perfect, near perfect or defective.

Now considering the percentage that has been given out in comparison to these "A+", "A", "A-" panels. A lot of buyers of the Korean monitors have had a 80% chance or higher of getting a perfect or near perfect monitor. The rest of them still have a great panel it's just the dead/stuck pixels is within the pixel guarantee from the manufacturer. So with that being said what would you rather have a monitor that is well over 1,000$ or a monitor that is easily 300-400$ and has the same capabilities as the higher price version. I think I would go with the 300-400$ version. That's where the Korean Monitors come into play.
Great, shoddy panels. I would gladly pay the extra $300-400 for A+ panels
The pixel disclaimer is simply re-seller-butt-covering since return shipping to Korea is very expensive. Pixel Perfect versions will show up soon, and it's not like the non PP versions more prone to having pixel issues anyway.
Here is what he said about 'pixel perfect'
Just to add on how awesome AccessoriesWhole is, there is a lot of speculation on the term "Pixel Perfect" which is being used when selling these monitors. A lot of sellers use these terms and then tell you within 4-5 dead/stuck pixels on the sides and 0 dead/bright pixels in the middle. They also claim they personally test the monitor themselves. This has been proven to be wrong, if you ask some intrusive question to these sellers they clearly state that manufacturer checks these monitors.
Yeah, that sounds perfect /sarc

tl;dr
These monitors have issues that NCX never mentioned.
 
Yeah, I better stop encouraging people to use their brains and make rational purchasing decisions instead of spending 800$ on giant blur fests with 120hz PWM.

PWM doesn't cause blur. If anything LEDs with low image retention create the opposite of blur, and blur like phosphors have tend to reduce possible side-effects of PWM.
 
I could be wrong, but I would assume that people who are buying this TV isn't looking for a display with the best motion clarity in the first place. They want a 4k display that's huge to provide an "immersive" experience. Now let's say even IF this display was totally PWM free, at the end of the day it's STILL a 60Hz display with a slower VA panel and no strobing, so motion clarity isn't going to be good regardless when compared to say a 120Hz strobed TN. We shouldn't be blaming the PWM for poor motion as it would be bad regardless. Sure it would be nice if this was indeed PWM free but even if it's not, it won't stop me from buying one after I weigh out my other options first. The only people who should be avoiding it are those who are very sensitive and get eye strain otherwise everything else about this is great.
 
Can someone just do this given low PWM freq is the main possible barrier to purchase? Do low as possible in a dark room. Thanks.

I'm using it at 0 Backlight. I'm not noticing any pronounced strain from just surfing.
The screen is much darker than what I would use so adjusting to the screen brightness places more stress on the eyes.
Now as my eyes adjust, I can view the monitor just fine. I'm not sensitive to PWM though.
 
Not true. If you mean cards that support 4:4:4 SPECIFICALLY at 3840x2160 60Hz then there are currently only three cards which are the GTX 960 970 and 980.

OMG I had a heart attack until saw this post. I have a 960 that I am planning to drive the UN48JU6700 I just ordered today. Last minute upgraded from 40 to 48. Glad I didn't spend an extra 200$ and then also have to buy a 970 lol.
 
It's a little flaky when going from UHD ON and OFF. It takes time for the screen to reset and give you back the options to adjust the settings. The screen will be dark then go bright suddenly, that means the option are unlocked; usually happens after a loss of signal.
Set the black levels to normal. Auto/Low is too dark for anything really. Unless you want pitch black during movies.

This will definitely need a firmware update in the future.

+1 on needing a firmware upgrade, I've experienced all sorts of issues with this 48" JU7500. That being said, it's the best display I've ever owned.
 
Can someone just do this given low PWM freq is the main possible barrier to purchase? Do low as possible in a dark room. Thanks.

Reducing the brightness makes PWM blur and flicker more obvious.

It is called Playwares and it is all in Korean, just great.

Knowledgeable individuals can look at their top class colorimeter and oscilloscope measurements and make informed recommendations or buying decisions.

I did find an English review of a Crossover here

This a subjective impression from someone who neither knows what they are doing nor has proper testing testing tools which is why he used an i1 display 2 (a meter which is not accurate with LED back-lit displays) and did not provide before or after colour measurements and encourages people to use ICC profiles for a different monitor.

Great, shoddy panels. I would gladly pay the extra $300-400 for A+ panels

The alleged panel grade rating in no way reflects the quality of the display. This has been proven many times by myself, =DEAD= (Russian reviewer), Playwares and many others. Many of the Korean monitors suck, but so do many of the 'name brand' monitors which also do not always have things like proper brightness controls, are known to suffer from horrific light-bleed and other quality control issues. Korean monitors PCB and/or dvi boards are usually the only parts which fail, but they are easily replaceable, are replaced for free by the good eBay sellers and are cheap to buy when the monitors 1 year seller warranty ends. Quite a few people have successfully received full refunds through Squaretrade too. I'd rather pay for a Squaretrade warranty than deal with Asus or Samsungs often horrible warranty service.

Here is what he said about 'pixel perfect'...Yeah, that sounds perfect /sarc

I would not classify your lack of knowledge about this subject as great. The manufacturers sell Flawless (pixel perfect) monitors (example) for a premium in Korea, and depending on the manufacturer, actually have different markings on the box to indicate which type they are. Are Pixel Perfect/Flawless monitors a scam? I don't know since not enough evidence exists to prove anything, but I would rather pay a bit more knowing I can get the seller to refund the difference.

I've purchased 10+ Korean monitors (for myself, family and friends, I'm not sure of the exact number), 9/10 are pixel perfect but only 8/10 were sold as pixel perfect monitors. This OCN thread has some statistics. Some of the sellers will refund the pixel perfect premium or more if a display ends up having pixel issues.

These monitors have issues that NCX never mentioned.

I'm sure (this is sarcasm) you're aware of the fact that companies like LG, Samsung, Sony, Sharp, Toshiba ect commonly use multiple panels and even different types of panels (IPS and multiple kinds of VA) in their TVs right? Samsung has also been caught selling their highest end non-4K monitors (1000$ S27B970D & S27B91D) with and without 180hz PWM too.

PWM doesn't cause blur. If anything LEDs with low image retention create the opposite of blur, and blur like phosphors have tend to reduce possible side-effects of PWM.

You need to read this this and look at this.
 
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So I made a bunch of edits and they did not go through.

First:
1. NCX I trust his opinion but it's his opinion. He basically begged me to not buy the Dell 30" 3014, everything he said made PERFECT sense. But want to know what I decided to get it based on my needs in fact I bought 4.

Was he wrong? No everything he said came to pass and I 'learned' deal with it. Fast forward now 2 yrs later I want a replacement. He convinced me to wait and return my 30" replacement and buy the 32" Ben Q or 32" Acer. I got the Acer recently for just about $700. I love it but like you guys I crave the larger real eatate

http://m.imgur.com/a/j4rt4

Don't bash him as he's done more for the display community than the other 99.9% (Btw NCX the meme was a bit bleh ^¿^)

With that being said let's write more about our experiences I bought a monitor yesterday at 5am and need to cancel it since like an idiot radioshack was selling last year's model LOFL. I got the 9000 50" for 3k in case you were wondering(yes 1000% being canceled)

2. TOPCASHBACK if you don't use it I can send you my referral link for money back via PM or just go to their site if you don't want to. They had a deal until 3am Pacific today where every purchase got you another 5% back. So if B&H was 10% it now is 15%


3.PWWM I'm all confused by this. OLED's are 5k and none are out that are better at 4k the AVS seems to be saying. What's the large format screen solution. FYI. MAXIMUM PC rates the 40" I think kickass and I trust that mags opinion on hardware.
 
Reducing the brightness makes PWM blur and flicker more obvious.

That's the point when testing for worst case scenario.

You need to read this this and look at this.

It's pretty obvious that the PWM cases are less blurred than without PWM. You don't seem to understand that strobe and blur are opposing qualities.
 
Eh. I never found the Cashback deal (didn't show up on my end) so I guess I'll just order from Crutchfield.
 
Can we have mod remove @NCX from this discussion?

Mods, this troll is not only breaking HardOCP community rules and going against it's standards, he / she is very clearly not reading the entire tread where several people have stated they are enjoying their new purchases.

Thank you.

Tempted to order the 48" model from Crutchfield (unless I find that better deal @ Topcash) but I'm still hesitant because I'll only have 4:2:0 support for the time being. How bad will it look? Will it be acceptable for every day use?

I'm going from a 34UM95 (Displayport) which, for the most part looks quite excellent (a little bit of backlight bleed).

If you find that deal post it and I'll buy it tonight.

Eh. I never found the Cashback deal (didn't show up on my end) so I guess I'll just order from Crutchfield.

Sorry 🙏
 
Wish I could find a store that carries it here. You'd think in Charlotte, a city with about a million people, we would have somewhere.
 
Then retake pics, should be almost identical to pc mode except no 4:4:4 chroma.

Sure there is no 4:4:4 chroma when in [Game] mode as opposed to [PC]?
This would kind of suck if it is the case, then the input lag would be almost twice as high if you want 4:4:4 in Games.

The Leo Bodnar tests are really a few ms higher, they seem to measure total latency and add a pixel response time element to the signal processing delay and generally never measure below 9-11ms lag.
Looking at this chart:
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
and comparing to SMTT results from other reviewers, you can subtract ~5-10ms from Leo Bodnar to get the actual signal processing delay (input lag)

Also, looking at some photos here and the subpixels at rtings, it seems the Samsungs have a BGR subpixel layout.
You could check this here:
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/subpixel.php
It should be possible to tweak the text appearance with OS settings, because most come preset for RGB layout.

btw.
That Crossover 44K UHD is listed as flicker-free on Amazon, but not on Danawa.
There is a Crossover rep (0731joy) answering questions in the danawa comment section, maybe he'll answer an english question if asked for clarification on PWM.
 
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Samsung UN40JU6700

c0j7p1H.jpg


t9CvTcf.jpg
 
It's pretty obvious that the PWM cases are less blurred than without PWM. You don't seem to understand that strobe and blur are opposing qualities.

Um.

The PWM case has extremely obvious motion artifacts. I suggest you read up on this over at blurbusters.

Un-sychronized PWM ≠ Strobing backlight. LCDs suffer from the sample-and-hold effect, whereas CRTs do not because of their low-persistance/rolling refresh. A strobed backlight would eliminate the sample-and-hold effect by turning off the backlight while the pixels refresh.
 
Um.

The PWM case has extremely obvious motion artifacts. I suggest you read up on this over at blurbusters.

Un-sychronized PWM ≠ Strobing backlight. LCDs suffer from the sample-and-hold effect, whereas CRTs do not because of their low-persistance/rolling refresh. A strobed backlight would eliminate the sample-and-hold effect by turning off the backlight while the pixels refresh.

Yes and no?
Looking at these (no doubt both bad case scenario) tftcentral pics:
LED PWM:
Ve76t7g.png

without PWM:
y3lKY6A.png


it looks like the PWM flicker does somehow mitigate the sample and hold blur, while at the same time causing more erratic and clearer ghosting patterns.
The flicker free seems to cause a smoother and more pleasant blur but also reduces the motion clarity of the moving object
 
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Wish I could find a store that carries it here. You'd think in Charlotte, a city with about a million people, we would have somewhere.

Ha, I am in Charlotte too and I can't find a single place that has the 48 inch JU6700 or JU7500.

Let me know if you find it around here!
 
PWM reduces blur. This TV uses backlight strobing to reduce blur in some modes. (See the review linked somewhere in this thread). That's why some minimal PWM artifacts are seen even at full brightness. Perhaps somebody with a TV can figure out a way to turn off the backlight strobing and retest for PWM.

I'm one of those people susceptible to headaches from low frequency florescent lights and presumably poorly implemented PWM schemes. So unfortunately I won't be able to purchase this otherwise wonderful TV.
 
PWM reduces blur. This TV uses backlight strobing to reduce blur in some modes. (See the review linked somewhere in this thread). That's why some minimal PWM artifacts are seen even at full brightness. Perhaps somebody with a TV can figure out a way to turn off the backlight strobing and retest for PWM.

I'm one of those people susceptible to headaches from low frequency florescent lights and presumably poorly implemented PWM schemes. So unfortunately I won't be able to purchase this otherwise wonderful TV.

Those features are apparently not enabled when using the 'PC' label input.

I am actually kind of interested in knowing why the PWM still persists @ 100%

Unless the motion compensation features are in a perpetual state of being on, despite being "grayed" out, then I would assume this just uses abysmally low PWM.
 
Samsung UN40JU6700

Looks great, man. I didn't get a chance to take any pics, but your setup is a little cleaner than mine anyway.

How do you feel about going with the 40"?

For me, it feels perfect. I think that I could work the 48" into my setup but I feel like the 40" is about as tall as I'd want. Additionally, I noticed the vertical contrast shift and that would only be amplified with the 48". Just something to think about for everyone assuming that there are no downsides to the bigger bro to this one.

The text on the 40" is about as small as I'd want. I can't imagine text on a 32" 4K without scaling, much less a 28"!
 
Knowledgeable individuals can look at their top class colorimeter and oscilloscope measurements and make informed recommendations or buying decisions.
While searching through a Korean language website to find them. I know you think people do not do enough research before spending their money, but this seems like too much work. I checked tftcentral, they have no reviews for any Crossover monitor, why is that?
The alleged panel grade rating in no way reflects the quality of the display. This has been proven many times by myself, =DEAD= (Russian reviewer), Playwares and many others.
Can you refer me to any English language reviewers besides yourself?
Many of the Korean monitors suck, but so do many of the 'name brand' monitors which also do not always have things like proper brightness controls, are known to suffer from horrific light-bleed and other quality control issues. Korean monitors PCB and/or dvi boards are usually the only parts which fail, but they are easily replaceable, are replaced for free by the good eBay sellers and are cheap to buy when the monitors 1 year seller warranty ends. Quite a few people have successfully received full refunds through Squaretrade too.
More work, more insurance, more hassle. Great.
I'd rather pay for a Squaretrade warranty than deal with Asus or Samsungs often horrible warranty service.
That's an opinion. Dismissed as you dismiss others.
I've purchased 10+ Korean monitors (for myself, family and friends, I'm not sure of the exact number), 9/10 are pixel perfect but only 8/10 were sold as pixel perfect monitors.
Anecdotal evidence, dismissed as you dismiss others.
I'm sure (this is sarcasm) you're aware of the fact that companies like LG, Samsung, Sony, Sharp, Toshiba ect commonly use multiple panels and even different types of panels (IPS and multiple kinds of VA) in their TVs right? Samsung has also been caught selling their highest end non-4K monitors (1000$)
At least I can read multiple reviews of these brands. For Crossover all I have is a Korean language website and you.
 
I ordered the 48JU6700 from Crutchfield. If you go through Befrugal you get another 5.4% back. In the end this was the cheapest for me. No tax, free 2 day shipping, unconditional 60 day returns. If I decide the 48" is too big for me I'll just return it and get the 40". At least this way I have 2mos to try it out.

Hopefully I'll have it either Mon or Tues.
 
I am actually kind of interested in knowing why the PWM still persists @ 100%

Unless the motion compensation features are in a perpetual state of being on, despite being "grayed" out, then I would assume this just uses abysmally low PWM.

Probably because blanking the first 1-2 ms of a 16.7 ms frame can eliminate most of the smear (and potentially inverted overshoot from overdrive) of transitioning pixels.

An ideal LCD display would have a completely level PWM-free backlight when content was completely static and would optionally insert this backlight blanking when there was motion to sharpen, but this would require either a new HDMI/DP extension for signaling or would require more display-side processing with up to a whole additional frame of latency to properly flag.
 
Um.

The PWM case has extremely obvious motion artifacts. I suggest you read up on this over at blurbusters.

Un-sychronized PWM ≠ Strobing backlight. LCDs suffer from the sample-and-hold effect, whereas CRTs do not because of their low-persistance/rolling refresh. A strobed backlight would eliminate the sample-and-hold effect by turning off the backlight while the pixels refresh.

PWM has inherent strobe motion artifacts the exact opposite of blur. By strobe I mean the dictionary definition, not the marketed feature name which should more accurately called blanking.
 
Sure there is no 4:4:4 chroma when in [Game] mode as opposed to [PC]?
This would kind of suck if it is the case, then the input lag would be almost twice as high if you want 4:4:4 in Games.

I can confirm that on my UN48JU6700 Game Mode does not use 4:4:4 chroma.

EDIT: I have to add that in PC mode, input lag is still really negligible. I'm certain I'll use it for anything other than FPS games.
 
PWM reduces blur. This TV uses backlight strobing to reduce blur in some modes. (See the review linked somewhere in this thread). That's why some minimal PWM artifacts are seen even at full brightness. Perhaps somebody with a TV can figure out a way to turn off the backlight strobing and retest for PWM.

I'm one of those people susceptible to headaches from low frequency florescent lights and presumably poorly implemented PWM schemes. So unfortunately I won't be able to purchase this otherwise wonderful TV.

The possible visual-psycho effect of PWM is not on/off but progressively gets worse as the less of the cycle is lit (ie greater strobe effect). The "PWM" at full brightness will he hardly visible: http://i.imgur.com/3K7iDdH.jpg because it seems to be lit like 99% of the time.

This is why I asked for the previous tests in the thread. If someone is susceptible, to get desired lower brightness what they can do is turn backlight low as permissible for their case (maybe 12-15), and use the panel to cut the rest of the way (ie "contrast"/white-point). This isn't optimal for black level and the latter will reduce contrast ratio somewhat, but these are margin disadvantages esp if the display is good quality in the first place.

There aren't exactly a lot of choices for reasonably priced curved 4k full-chroma displays and this one seems good except for the backlight PWM.
 
Looks great, man. I didn't get a chance to take any pics, but your setup is a little cleaner than mine anyway.

How do you feel about going with the 40"?

For me, it feels perfect. I think that I could work the 48" into my setup but I feel like the 40" is about as tall as I'd want. Additionally, I noticed the vertical contrast shift and that would only be amplified with the 48". Just something to think about for everyone assuming that there are no downsides to the bigger bro to this one.

The text on the 40" is about as small as I'd want. I can't imagine text on a 32" 4K without scaling, much less a 28"!

Thanks!

I saw the 40" and 48" on display at Brandsmart.
The 40" felt natural to stand in front of, but I had to take two steps back to enjoy the 48".
This will be amplified when sitting down in a dimly lit room 2-4ft away. 48" was a no go and it wouldn't have fit on my desk.

Also the shift would have been greater with the 48". I think 40" is the perfect size.

Text is still very small so I'm running DPI 150%. I have Adobe CC and many of the menu items are hard to read below that.
 
Fuck, so the Titan X doesn't support 4:4:4 at 3840x2160 60Hz??

nope?!
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-titan-x/specifications
Dual Link DVI-I, HDMI, 3x DisplayPort 1.2
* 5120x3200 at 60Hz with dual DisplayPort connectors.


http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-titan-z/specifications
One Dual Link DVI-I, One Dual Link DVI-D, One HDMI, One DisplayPort
1 - 3840x2160 at 30Hz or 4096x2160 at 24Hz supported over HDMI. 4096x2160 (including 3840x2160) at 60Hz supported over Displayport. Support for 4k tiled MST displays requires 326.19 driver or later.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-980/specifications
Dual Link DVI-I, HDMI 2.0, 3x DisplayPort 1.2
* 5120x3200 at 60Hz with dual DisplayPort connectors.

Only the 9x0 series specifically states HDMI 2.0 support. On the other hand, both Titan Z and GTx 9x0 support 5120x3200 resolutions.

this is a very relevant question.
 
A specific card necessary? Doesn't seem to be on any list for Freedom.

I think you have to log into your Chase account, go to ultimate rewards and search for Crutchfield in the Shop Through Chase section.
 
How much bandwidth does 4:4:4 chroma use on the HDMI cable? My cables are 10.2GB max but I read that 2.0 is up to 18GB. Will I need new cables?

EDIT: Just found this table. Probably will look bad, formatted as best could.
EDIT2: Yeah it doesn't really format much. But 17.82GB was what I was looking for. Ordering new cables now.
EDIT3: Pic

ResolutionFrame rate Chroma Subsampling Pixel Clock 8-bit color 10-bit color
720p / 1080i 60 Hz 4:4:4 74.25 MHz 2.23 Gbps 2.78 Gbps
1080p / 2K 60 Hz 4:4:4 148.5 MHz 4.46 Gbps 5.57 Gbps
4K / UHD 30 Hz 4:4:4 297.00 MHz 8.91 Gbps 11.14 Gbps
4K / UHD 60 Hz 4:2:0 594.00 MHz 8.91 Gbps1 11.14 Gbps
4K / UHD 60 Hz 4:4:4 594.00 MHz 17.82 Gbps 22.28 Gbps

7IgfMKA.jpg
 
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