New MacBook Pro i9 Slower than the old MacBook Pro i7

Wasn't there something last time that was off with the pro line that was causing a lot of people to complain about performance? Every release shows more and more that pro doesn't mean professional but just means give us more money edition. Which is really sad for those that try to stick to them for professional grade task.

One part of that video that caught me the most was how terrible the performance is on a Mac in general over a windows machine. If a render takes 7 minutes on windows but 35 - 40 on a Mac, that just goes to show that the gap between the two has really spread and that going with a mac for any of that type of stuff is a poor choice now. At this point anyone using a Mac for anything professionally isn't doing so because it is the best choice, but because they are use to it and don't want to change, or because they are still holding on to the sheep mind set.

Didn't read through all the pages of comments, but for those trying to say that this isn't apple's fault. Unfortunately it is 100% their fault. Nobody forced them to make the thinnest notebook that they could. Nobody forced them to care about look over function. Apple could have fixed this by making a larger unit with actual cooling. Yes it wouldn't look at "pretty" but it would work better. Same goes for anyone else that makes a ultra thin notebook and has the same issue. They can fix the issue by adding fans and making the unit a little larger.
 
next-Jin said:
Eh maybe, if I’m looking at my Inspiron 15 7000 as an example it’s possible from then looks of it to just add another fan and fin area on the heatsink.

That heatsink is tiny and weighs almost nothing. Like I said the vents are there already.

With the MacBook Pro or XPS lines I’m not so sure because they use HQ variant CPUs and not the U versions and they both have 2 fans/fin setups.

Something tells me they need to goto 10nm or make the devices deeper allowing another 1/4 in or so of heatsink surface area. Maybe more. U version chips should have the current QM style cooling setups.
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You'd be surprised, a few grams will make it weigh more than competitor and sadly many users only look at thickness/weight/looks. With ultrabooks for basically pay for less weight and even a tiny difference counts for them. Many typical users and thus manufacturers don't necessarily look at this as objectively as we do and therefore won't make them a bit more thicker to improve cooling. They rather make them run hotter in a thin case. It can possibly also be attributed to designed failure where machines run at their thermal thresholds and fail well before they really should have otherwise.
 
Tiberian has the right of it and so does everyone else calling out Apple on their bullshit. The prices of MacBook Pros keep going up and up and yet issues like these keep growing as well. Every time I look to purchase a laptop I spend some time at least considering a MacBook Pro but I'm continually floored by some of the stupid decisions being made - that they KNOW result in garbage outcomes - yet they press on. The worst of it is that the MBP could be high quality if they only would make a few changes.

If someone is paying all that money for an i9 (and frankly I'm not sure the i9 moniker should be stuck to a mobile device. I thought if nothing else it was only for high-end chipsets like X299 and had more cores etc... not just a clock boost) it ought to work as designed. When the 15" version of a laptop in 2018 only uses a 560X w/ 4GB as their high end option, that;'s insane. There are plenty of 15" devices (and sometimes smaller) that offer something better, like the Razer Blade 15 which offers a 1070 8GB (even if its MaxQ) in a similar "slim" form factor that is aesthetically pleasing. With all Apple's money they could certainly get some sort of 570/580 type chip or better yet something based on Vega even if it has to be slimmed down Max-Q style. They should include the kind of cooling that is necessary (no useful vents even on the bottom of the damn thing is sheer idiocy in service to Apple design cult) with quality specialty designed fans, proper venting, and if they need to make it a tiny bit thicker to handle all the Pro CPU and GPU power for which they're charging their customers, do so! They have the money to invest in getting custom solutions built for them which would go into their cultish ideas of so-called "innovation", so I can't understand why they are charging nearly $3000 for the "good model" without any upgrades and not willing to do so!

The external GPU is not a bad idea and I've only heard good things about BlackMagicDesign for media production/editing; i get why they'd be a Mac partner. But a $700 device to fix the flaws in their underpowered $3000 device? Worse that $700 device is basically a 580 8GB - not a bad card, but you'd think if they wanted newest/max rendering power etc.. they'd use Vega instead? Hell, for around $700 (especially with MSRP) I could probably throw together an eGPU TB3 enclosure w/ Vega 56 or 64 (assuming reasonable GPU pricing; something that Apple should be able to do with their purchasing volume). Instead they push a "unique" underpowered, overly expensive companion device for their "unique" underpowered, overly expensive device... but at least it looks pretty! I guess that is their MO....
 
The plot thickens... Intel has apparently pulled all the download links for the Intel Power Gadget which can be used to monitor power settings and real-time usage statistics. Oh, they left the Windows version up for download, and the Linux version, but the macOS version? Gone, more than likely at the request of Apple itself. I wonder...

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-power-gadget-20

Sure, it just might make a re-appearance at some point in the immediate future but it's safe to say this isn't a purely coincidental thing considering how many reviewers are using that tool for showing how bad the throttling performance of the 2018 MBP with the i9 CPU is.

It's good for a laugh, however. :D
 
I can upload my copy of Intel Power Gadget for MacOS when I get home. I am sure it is on the internet elsewhere as well.
 
Looks like Apple might need to do some TDP/voltage tuning for their T2 controller; notebookcheck used Intel's tools (and a macOS tool called Volta that lets you cap TDP) to cap a 15" to 45 watts and the results were much better. Same thing with the 13" at 31 watts.Looks like those 50-60-90? watt TDP spikes aren't working out for that chassis size.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...e-performance-with-a-few-clicks.317552.0.html
 
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And it just gets worse: apparently someone might have discovered what's really going on with these new i9 (and potentially the i7 as well) powered MBPs: the VRMs (voltage regulator modules) just can't supply the necessary juice aka power to keep the i9 satisfied (and again, potentially the i7 as well) so it's actually going to be considered a manufacturing defect. It's not the i9 itself, and it apparently isn't even the thermal cooling system (which is lackluster to say the very least), it's something much more insidious. There does seem to be a way to lessen the effect of the throttling but even so, this is not looking good for people spending that kind of crazy cash and expecting to get the best performance possible.

Is the i9-powered 2018 MBP still a powerful beast even with these issues? Yes. Is it going to perform as well as Apple wants everyone to believe? Not really, no. So think long and hard before committing to a purchase, that's the best advice right now, and also consider that this potential that this kind of problem that might be centering on the power supply subsystem could eventually lead to other issues (not just rather excessive heat buildup with the somewhat constant "get hot, cool down, get freakin' hot again, cool down, etc" cycling) which is never really good for anything at all.

Anyway, someone over on Reddit posted about the issue and their potential working solution but again, take all this with a grain of salt for now:


And for a short explanation of what's going on, good old Louis Rossmann to the rescue. He covers all the relevant points quite well in this ~6 minute video so again, if you're considering a purchase of an i9-powered 2018 MBP (or even the highest spec i7-powered model too) this is worth taking a few minutes to understand what appears to be going on with this fiasco:



Yes, it's entirely possible Apple will release some firmware update soon that would do this as well, but in the long run the machine has a manufacturing defect that apparently is going to prevent the i9-powered model (yeah, the i7 as well) from ever performing up to what it's theoretically capable of unless some miracle comes along to resolve it or this Redditor's info is completely wrong and right now that's not looking to be true.
 
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They don't need a firmware update to fix this, it's part of the OS. Ask someone on reddit to grab Mojave and see if it's been fixed. I have Mojave now, but I don't know if checking under the hood is going to reveal much since I don't have an i9.
 
Jim Kim said:
Apple says it has a firmware fix
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I'd appreciate it if you didn't truncate my sentence or post to change the meaning of what I wrote.

The media can call this a "firmware" update but it's a supplemental software update specific to a version of High Sierra. Download macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 Supplemental Update for MacBook Pro (2018) https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1973?locale=en_US

Firmware updates are, unsurprisingly, called "firmware updates"
MacBook Pro Flash Storage Firmware Update 1.0
MacBook Pro SMC Firmware Update 1.8
https://support.apple.com/en_US/downloads/macbookpro

Does that sound like a firmware update to you? No, it's an OS update. I speculated in that same post that Mojave might already have the fix. If you're on Mojave, you can't apply this fix. This is either a problem exclusive to the missing key in 10.13.6 *only* or Apple is going to release this so-called "firmware" fix for every single minor point release, which is a ridiculous notion.
 
mope54 said:
snip
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Following extensive performance testing under numerous workloads, we’ve identified that there is a missing digital key in the firmware that impacts the thermal management system and could drive clock speeds down under heavy thermal loads on the new MacBook Pro.
So it's a software patch to fix a firmware issue. You'd think they just fix the firmware.
 
Jim Kim said:
Following extensive performance testing under numerous workloads, we’ve identified that there is a missing digital key in the firmware that impacts the thermal management system and could drive clock speeds down under heavy thermal loads on the new MacBook Pro.
So it's a software patch to fix a firmware issue. You'd think they just fix the firmware.
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You have to follow the trail because, as you hopefully noticed, that statement is not *stated* anywhere. It's also not attributed to anyone. One must dig and dig through dozens of pc-centric sites to get to the Verge who claims to be the source of this statement via a phone call with an unnamed Apple representative.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/24/17605652/macbook-pro-thermal-throttling-apple-software-fix

It's notable that the author of that article implies skepticism that there could be a missing security key, which implies to me that the author doesn't really understand what is going on under the hood of these MacBooks (and also either misunderstood the Apple rep or was told something in terms a PC-centric reporter would understand).

In any case, the issue seems to be that prior to the 2018 these types of management controls were handled by SMC, which has since been moved over to the secure enclave in the T2 chip. Without the security key, it can't be accessed. The T2 presumably has a firmware, like the SMC chip did in previous generations, but the key wouldn't be missing from the chip itself since it's a key to access the chip...right?

I hope people here can agree that if the T2 chip's firmware could be upgraded by end-users like this the secure enclave would have a gaping security hole! One workaround was to disable security protection and write an unsigned custom driver, which is what randompersonx did in the instructions above.
 
Tiberian said:
That statement Jim Kim quoted is on the Apple update page where the fix is posted, so yeah, Apple said it it's a firmware fix and if they said it's a firmware fix then that's what it is. More than likely it's a patch to the UEFI firmware - which doesn't require a reboot and can be updated from the running OS on any platform, especially if it's a signed correct patch from the maker of the hardware/software to begin with - so, again, if Apple says it's a firmware patch/update, that's precisely what it is.
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No, that statement is not on an Apple update page. I provided the source. This is easily verifiable if you simply follow the links or do your own internet search instead of popping off without doing rudimentary research.

FYI, randompersonx posted, "Apple released their update, and In my opinion, their solution is superior to my work. Of course, their work should be superior to my work, because they designed the system.[...]I'm ultimately happy that Apple has quickly addressed this with a software fix." (emphasis mine)

[which is here, .https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_cpu_tuning_settings_for_i9_mbp_to_stop/?sort=new, since you *also* seem to have a problem with attribution]
 
Gotta love Apple and their supplemental updates which are basically 1/4 of the damned OS itself in terms of size. Another 1.3GB supplemental update... and since this update when applied forces the machine to reboot, yes, I'd say it's an actual firmware update to the UEFI to resolve this supposed "key" issue which they're claming is what's causing the throttling to happen.

Remains to be seen if this will resolve issues to any sufficient... degrees. Yes, I went there. :D
 
Tiberian said:
Gotta love Apple and their supplemental updates which are basically 1/4 of the damned OS itself in terms of size. Another 1.3GB supplemental update... and since this update when applied forces the machine to reboot, yes, I'd say it's an actual firmware update to the UEFI to resolve this supposed "key" issue which they're claming is what's causing the throttling to happen.

Remains to be seen if this will resolve issues to any sufficient... degrees. Yes, I went there. :D
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Windows requires reboots for less, and even on Linux based operating systems you need to reboot or else you'll have different libraries in memory than you have on disk, which can cause issues in some cases.
 
Just don't get the i9 model. Apple doesn't care how many devices they sell.
 
This sounds very fishy. How could a software change fix a CPU throttling because of heat? I understand they can adjust the rate of throttling, however there's no way this is improving CPU temps. This likely just allows the CPU to operate at higher temps before throttling down to lower it's temperature. Very deceptive, since we don't know how they are resolving the heat issues. I wonder if they are turning cores off during certain workloads to do it.
 
meltdowner said:
This sounds very fishy. How could a software change fix a CPU throttling because of heat? I understand they can adjust the rate of throttling, however there's no way this is improving CPU temps. This likely just allows the CPU to operate at higher temps before throttling down to lower it's temperature. Very deceptive, since we don't know how they are resolving the heat issues. I wonder if they are turning cores off during certain workloads to do it.
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Its sounds like this has been explained already so not sure why you find it fishy. System was incorrectly going from full speed to low speed without nothing in between. They have changed that to have in between levels.
 
Why does this noob have his noctua and silverstone fan set to push? Everyone knows push/pull configurations for external fans works best on macbooks.
 
meltdowner said:
This sounds very fishy. How could a software change fix a CPU throttling because of heat? I understand they can adjust the rate of throttling, however there's no way this is improving CPU temps. This likely just allows the CPU to operate at higher temps before throttling down to lower it's temperature. Very deceptive, since we don't know how they are resolving the heat issues. I wonder if they are turning cores off during certain workloads to do it.
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Apparently Apple has a problem with premature throttalage. They are scaling back before they needed to. Possibly because they read the CPU temp wrong.
 
auntjemima said:
Did they expect it to throttle less? It's a hotter chip.

Apple isn't the only one to blame here, unfortunately.
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It is not the chip but ecms that are not delivering the proper amount of power especially when they get to hot.

Edit vrm not ecm :p
 
novaflare said:
It is not the chip but ecms that are not delivering the proper amount of power especially when they get to hot.

Edit vrm not ecm :p
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Dude have you seen the temps coming off that thing? Looks like a sun is burning in the land. That chip wasn't engineered to run in that thin of a case.
 
I never understood why any manufacturer would make thin performance laptop.
A few years ago I had a need for a powerful laptop and I went as big as possible (alienware m18x), I was even able to oc my 3720qm by 400mhz without any throttling for hours (after upgrading the heatsink, was fine at stock clock with stock cooler).

I get that not everyone wants to carry a behemoth like a m18x but there are options in between it and something thats less then 1cm thick.

I have a acer 2in1 with an i3 and while it does not throttle, it can get pretty hot though and I'm sure it would if it had the i5 or i7 in there.
 
idiomatic said:
Professionals in the field use 17" laptops for anything like video editing or rendering. Possibly with internal sli Nvidia mobile chips.

If you can do it on a Macbook Pro, you might as well just use an iPad.
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If by 'professionals' you mean video bloggers, yes.
I've been on plenty of sets for professional shoots and they sure as fuck don't edit arri/red footage on a pathetic laptop, no matter how well cooled. Big time stuff is edited on hugely expensive rigs and usually not the same location. People don't understand the storage size and speed requirements. Sure some basic bitch 4k or 1080p is fine, beyond that.. Probably dreaming.
 
This is a laptop, and I am doing workstation work on it, because the Workstation is too pricy. All the cores are running for hours over night to crunch #coreML2 stuffs, so, additional cooling makes sense. It is my fault.
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What kind of customer blames himself for a laptop that has a sub par thermal solution for the CPU used?

If it can't handle the heat it makes no sense putting the CPU in there in the first place. So you got a powerful laptop but you shouldn't use all that power because it is a a laptop? Then what is the point of it being powerful?

Too many apologetic in the Apple cult.
 
kzrider said:
So Apple (and probably other laptop manufacturers) produce a powerful laptop that can't be run to its full potential because of heat issues. Why are they allowed to do this? If an auto manufacturer produced a car that had overheating issues in every single unit produced they would recall it. Hell they issue recalls on cars for less than that. Most of the people buying the new i9 MBP probably just assume it's faster and never do any real testing or comparing.
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You've pretty much described EVERY high end smartphone released. They won't run at 100% load for very long without throttling due to lack of heat dissipation.
 
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