"New"-IPS overrated?

Oled

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Jan 12, 2010
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I read this comment from the user Godmachine and think there is something awfully correct about this statement.

"IPS monitors used to be such wonderful quality monitors, now they are just drowning in flaws and the amount of savings passed on to customers is just a joke."

So to the question.

Are newer IPS monitors any good? I primarly think of the IPS of newer models like HP ZR24W, Dell U2311H, U2410 and U2711 and such.

From what I have seen I have to agree with Godmachine. If you are very lucky you can find a good specimen but most of them are pretty crappy. Quality control sucks.
 
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NCX

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Yes, so pick your poison or wait for the Samsung PLS display reviews

Expensive IPS (Non Eizo/NEC/Fujitsu [due to avaliability])=U2410/ZR24W/U2711/3011/ZR30w/3007-8

+viewing angles
+Accurate Color presets
+Screen Size/Real estate
-Med-High input lag (Except the ACD and ZR30w=low lag)
-Medicore contrast (except the new Glossy Hazros)
-Aggressive AG coating (except the new Glossy Hazros and ACD)
-Quality Control (not sure about the Hazros and ACD)

or

E-IPS=EA23x/U2x11H/IPS2x6V/VP2365

+/-Ok viewing angles
+Good contrast (except Viewsonic VP2365)
+Accurate Color Presets
+Low Input lag
-Screen size/real-estate
-Aggressive AG coating (except the Glossy Dell ST2220T and possibly the new Asus ML239H)
-Quality Control

Asus PA246q=Step in the right direction,

+less aggressive AG coating according to [H] Users
+good viewing angles
+low input lag
+Screen size/real estate
-medicore contrast
?not enough feedback yet to gage the QC (seems ok), but Asus added a 0 dead pixel policy recently.
 
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munkle

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I don't think they are overrated. Tn looks like crap compared to my 3008wfp. I think blacks were better on my 2407wfp-hc but there was pretty bad color shifting on the edges which is what drives me nuts. I can't stand seeing two slightly different colors in each of my eyes. Ips keeps that from happening the colors don't shift like they do on pva/tn screens.
 

tk-don

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Messages
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I don't know - but you have to take into account how many of these are sold compared to how many who bothers to post a follow-up if they don't really have anything to complain about.

I know a lot of people with TN desk monitors, and have seen their monitors in real-life. Most of them (the TN monitors :p) have light leakage and all suffer from narrow vertical viewing angles. Yet i don't think this really bothers them at all, because they aren't critical - and because the monitor have nice designs and were cheap.
If you tell these people how great a PVA/IPS based monitor is in comparison and recommend them to buy product "X" they suddenly become critical and want perfection because X costs more. That's my experience... and no I haven't recommended any $600+ monitors, i'd probably get laughed at :D
 

SXTC

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I like my screen to be able to function properly (for the money you pay for it :()
so I tend to avoid input lag... (it annoys my eyes)
 

Ephesos

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IPS monitors used to be such wonderful quality monitors


The same problems that you see in today's ips screens, were also found in the past variation of ips screens. The thing is that back then, not many people could afford them, so they were less vocal about it. Not even the Necs with ATW polarizers weren't "perfect", they also had tinting, AG coating, some reported poor backlight uniformity on some models, etc.
 

Ashok0

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I would tend to agree with Godmachine. I don't care how good the technical specs of IPS monitors are on paper. Due to LGs "sparkle" inducing AG coating, I find text to look vastly superior on pretty much any TN panel. I have found Apple's glossy displays to have incredible build quality, but they are unusable in certain environments and you lose native support for 1080p. Hazro just released a new glossy IPS display with a scaler this week, and its release has been a disaster. Dead pixels, dust under the glass, poor build quality (cheap plastic frame that doesn't even fit snug with the glass), and mediocre technical support.

For anyone looking at making a new purchase, my advice is to skip IPS and wait for Samsung's upcoming SA850 PLS display.
 

popowrx

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My only issue with the Asus is that awful red line they put into it. Hopefully when Samsung PLS monitors are out for review, I can find a nice 24 inch option but I'm not holding out hope that option will release any time soon.

While I would love an SA850 if it had low ghosting and medium input lag, the total price tag of going to that resolution will likely be too high for me to justify spending on it.
 

Walker

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Messages
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I'm not sure I agree with that. Perhaps it could be argued IPS panels have not advanced as much as one would hope but I don't see in what ways have they become worse compared to older "wonderful quality" ones. Sure, those newer and cheaper IPS screens bring more problems, sacrifice the viewing angles etc. but still the fact that you can get one for pretty much the price of a decent TN which basically has built-in uniformity issues, is good.

Quality control seems not to be LG's strongest point but it still does make me wonder how good or bad it really is when people spending more money on a display are naturally going to be much more demanding and critical about it. For what it's worth, I've seen 5 HP ZR24w's and not single one had a dead pixel or uneven backlight. Only one had a very minor case of tinting, certainly less noticeable than even the horizontal hue shift on some cPVA panels that is almost never even mentioned.

AG coating is an odd one. I can honestly say I have never met anyone IRL that isn't a complete noob when it comes to monitors and who is bothered by it. I have a matte IPS, matte PVA and glossy TN and while I can see the differences, with all the problems plaguing every LCD tech it seems like a very minor issue to me. If I had never seen an IPS panel before I'd be terrified buying one with all the reports on these forums about unreadable text and stuff. The pixel structure of certain VA screens has more effect on text readability than an aggressive AG coating does IMO.

So are newer IPS monitors any good? My answer would be yes. If for nothing else then for the fact that they still have the least flaws, at least for my usage. TN panels still have far too narrow vertical viewing angles to achieve any kind of screen uniformity and color shifting by moving my head only slightly up and down is very annoying. VA gamma shift has always kind of bothered me but now that I'm used to IPS I can immediately spot there is something wrong whenever I sit in front of a VA panel. They may not be for everyone, and not everyone will find the pros to justify the extra price of an IPS screen but those are still very good monitors in my opinion. Let's not forget that CRT's weren't perfect either, not even the most expensive ones.
 

GuyClinch

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I imagine they will have input lag - as they have a scaler. I wonder if Samsung will sell the panel to other companies though so they can make a lag free version like the HP ones.

I am not too concerned about ghosting. They went through the trouble of creating the IPS knock off to avoid ghosting as PVA already had pretty good colors/contrast with bad ghosting. So one can safely assume it won't ghost.
 

Godmachine

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The same problems that you see in today's ips screens, were also found in the past variation of ips screens. The thing is that back then, not many people could afford them, so they were less vocal about it. Not even the Necs with ATW polarizers weren't "perfect", they also had tinting, AG coating, some reported poor backlight uniformity on some models, etc.

The past IPS panels weren't perfect but there weren't completely void of quality control like current (mainstream not high end) IPS panels. Having so many of them suffer from the same issues across the board that are simply a matter of quality control is completely unacceptable.

You pay more for what you believe is a superior product but in reality its not. I own a Dell U2410 and I was lucky to get one without a tinting issue and considering thats an easy $500 dollar product thats just really sad. If you call Dell and speak to a rep with half a brain on the matter he'll instantly blame LG and that "quality control is beyond our ...control" :rolleyes: its just laughable. Dell could call LG out on this issue and reduce the number of RMA's (on there dime as well) they have to deal with but instead no complaints and quality control still sucks.

The U2410 is from a new IPS line dubbed the economy IPS panel type , its suppose to be cheaper but without sacrificing quality. Instead its about the same in terms of cost as more expensive models and the quality is sub standard. Thats where my beef lies , you cut a few corners to save on cost ...whatever BUT only as long as I the customer don't absorb the negative aspects of doing so which is why I'm tired of this "rinse and repeat" method of technology forward thinking the industry is currently blaring as its mantra.
 

ToastyX

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Godmachine said:
The past IPS panels weren't perfect but there weren't completely void of quality control like current (mainstream not high end) IPS panels.
LG IPS panels have always had problems. I don't know why you think older panels were better. If anything, older IPS panels were more problematic, but there were less complaints. Now people are complaining about things that have always been there like the grainy anti-glare coating and the IPS glow.

I tried the HP L2335 several years ago. I got three units with different manufacturing dates, and all three had horrendous cloudy backlight bleeding and multiple stuck pixels (8+ per screen). One of the monitors also had a tilted panel, which caused the bezel to block some of the pixels. There was also patterned dithering visible on all the screens, which nobody bothered to mention. On top of that, they had the typical grainy anti-glare coating and the orange/purple glow at slight angles. How come hardly anyone complained about those things back then?

I also tried the 23" Apple (400:1 contrast version), and it had similar problems. I tried five units before giving up. Every single one had cloudy backlight bleeding and stuck pixels. It didn't dither like the HP, but there were faint vertical lines on greenish-blue colors, which I hadn't seen in any other panel. On top of that, the 23" Apple also had several complaints about pink tints and yellow edges. I remember reading a post on an Apple forum where someone tried 13 units and encountered problems on every single one.

Even after all that, there were people that insisted they didn't have any of those problems, which didn't make sense considering my experience was consistent across nine different monitors from three different manufacturers (including the Sony SDM-P234), all with the same LG IPS panel. Eventually, the HP and Sony monitors were also known to develop a pink tint with age.

Many people also complained about backlight bleeding on the Dell 2005FPW, which lead to this thread: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1032268 (This thread has more bleeding pictures: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456539)

Several 20"-24" panels are also known to develop staining around the edges, which commonly affects the Dell 2005FPW, NEC 20WMGX2, and HP LP2475w.

I could go on and on about LG IPS panels. Trust me, LG's quality control has always sucked.
 

Snowdog

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LG IPS panels have always had problems. I don't know why you think older panels were better. If anything, older IPS panels were more problematic, but there were less complaints. Now people are complaining about things that have always been there like the grainy anti-glare coating and the IPS glow.

I could go on and on about LG IPS panels. Trust me, LG's quality control has always sucked.

I concur. LG AG coatings have always been like that but it has become something of a rallying cry in Hardforums.

The off angle glow has changed in hue and strength. I think some of the older panels with pink/purple glow were actually a bit less obtrusive than some newer panels with stronger white glow.

The one real step back is the loss of A-TW. A lot of the older panels did have A-TW screens from NEC (and DoubleSight/others as as well). Not only does this reduce glow significantly, it also appears that the AG is a bit less aggressive on these.
 

mmaker

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Messages
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You pay more for what you believe is a superior product but in reality its not.

Orly?

So you dont see any different in color between those? I guess you also found TN panels that have 2560*1440 or 2560*1600 resolution?

imgp4681f.jpg


Dont understand how you can whine for a few dead pixel or some minor color tinting if you bought a screen for homeuse, you wont notice it on normal use. If your bought it for critical graphic work whatever or paid sick amount of money, then its cool to whine really.
 

Godmachine

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Seriously a half ass photo is suppose to impress me somehow? I own the U2410 , I bought it for all kinds of reasons and its quality control is shitty. I was lucky enough not to get one with tinting issues and for $500+ dollars none of them should have ANY tinting issues especially considering they are aimed at buyers who require color accuracy.

I love all you defenders. Keep on thinking that somehow IPS monitors haven't dropped in quality over time . AG coating isn't so much a quality control issue as it is a direct manufacturing choice since its the same on every model when its a heavy coating so I don't know why some of you are listing that under "quality control"??

My gripe is that IPS technology is taking a nose dive , but some of you seem to think that means "I Love TN panels" which it completely doesn't and your forming that opinion all on your own. I don't like any TN panels except the 120hz kind and I own one and am willing to look past the faults of TN panel design for that one important feature.
 

limitedaccess

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In terms of what I would guess you call the budget IPS line, u2311 and etc. I would have to say this is an improvement. For an essentially marginal cost increase (if at all) over many high end TNs, the view angle improvement is dramatic with essentially negligible drawbacks. This to me is an improvement, for the average user, and specifically gamer/multimedia user of these forums, an IPS was not even remotely in consideration before due to cost/response time/input lag when choosing a display.

Regarding the cost savings of the new IPS screens, are these not significant? What was the MSRP of say the NEC 2490 at launch?
 

tk-don

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Regarding the cost savings of the new IPS screens, are these not significant? What was the MSRP of say the NEC 2490 at launch?
Hmm $1,099, however "budget monitor performance" and 2490 should never be put in the same sentence. Budget monitors was also available back then, but you'd have to look at 20" S-IPS 4:3 panels instead.

It's hard to beat the price of a U2311H, but it's edge-lit and apparently/rumoured to be 6-bit. So apparently some kind of trade-off does exist - but i agree in comparison to a TN panel, the e-IPS is a noticeable improvement.
 

limitedaccess

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Of course not, they are aimed at different markets. But one the premises of the original post was that the new IPS monitors were only cheaper to produce and worse without passing on savings to consumers. But IPS screens have in fact dropped to price points making them a consideration for more mainstream users over TNs of similar size/aspect ratio (lets face it, these are the first primary criteria for most buyers), whereas before the price gap was way to big for most people to consider.
 

Ephesos

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Hmm $1,099, however "budget monitor performance" and 2490 should never be put in the same sentence. Budget monitors was also available back then, but you'd have to look at 20" S-IPS 4:3 panels instead.

It's hard to beat the price of a U2311H, but it's edge-lit and apparently/rumoured to be 6-bit. So apparently some kind of trade-off does exist - but i agree in comparison to a TN panel, the e-IPS is a noticeable improvement.

The u2311h has ccfl backlight, though it's true that is sports a 6 bit panel that produces minor dithering artifacts. Still better than any TN panel, even than those 120 hz ones...in my opinion at least :)
 

lancelot48

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Seriously a half ass photo is suppose to impress me somehow? I own the U2410 , I bought it for all kinds of reasons and its quality control is shitty. I was lucky enough not to get one with tinting issues and for $500+ dollars none of them should have ANY tinting issues especially considering they are aimed at buyers who require color accuracy.

I love all you defenders. Keep on thinking that somehow IPS monitors haven't dropped in quality over time . AG coating isn't so much a quality control issue as it is a direct manufacturing choice since its the same on every model when its a heavy coating so I don't know why some of you are listing that under "quality control"??

My gripe is that IPS technology is taking a nose dive , but some of you seem to think that means "I Love TN panels" which it completely doesn't and your forming that opinion all on your own. I don't like any TN panels except the 120hz kind and I own one and am willing to look past the faults of TN panel design for that one important feature.

If you are willing to "look past the faults of TN panel design for that one important feature" then I'm willing to look past the faults of IPS panel for color accuracy, which I need in my job.

That's why I have the U2410. Gaming and surfing are secondary. The 120Hz 23.6 inch TN are not cheap, with the 3D glasses.

The IPS can be used for gaming and photo editing. The TN cannot be used for photo editing.
 

mmaker

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lol cba discussing with someone that cant see the different in color reproduction, unbelievable.

If tinting is a issue, then your a serious graphic aritst or something and should buy an eizo, or replace the dell untill you get one without.
 

Snowdog

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I love all you defenders. Keep on thinking that somehow IPS monitors haven't dropped in quality over time .
My gripe is that IPS technology is taking a nose dive

You have provided nothing in the way of proof, not even circumstantial evidence.

Yet people who have owned many IPS panels state that the the old ones were no better, you just dismiss them based on nothing.

You can still find these older IPS panels and if you sit them next to a modern one, they don't appear any better, they have all the same defects.

Just because more people are complaining today doesn't mean the panels are worse, they are just in the hands of more people. Also shows that these forums have become and echo chamber, where someone devises a test to reveal some defect, everyone runs out to try it and discovers that they also have a defect...

Go back 5 years and try to find a complaint about horrible AG coatings. It would be extremely rare. Coatings haven't changed, it has just become fashionable to whine about it. 5 years ago it also wasn't as popular to take long exposures of black screens in the dark.

The monitors haven't become worse. The forum has progressively become more Obsessive Compulsive.
 

Rokodo

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I do some graphic design as a hobby. Though the Q3 LG panel suffers a bit more from the 'sparkle' effect than the Q5 LG panel, both do the job when it comes to colour accuracy. On the Samsung 2233BW that I used previously, colour inconsistency across the panel became a real issue when working in Photoshop.

However, as far as I'm concerned for a general purpose monitor:

S/H-IPS > E-IPS > TN

The end.
 

ckryan

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I do some graphic design as a hobby. Though the Q3 LG panel suffers a bit more from the 'sparkle' effect than the Q5 LG panel, both do the job when it comes to colour accuracy. On the Samsung 2233BW that I used previously, colour inconsistency across the panel became a real issue when working in Photoshop.

However, as far as I'm concerned for a general purpose monitor:

S/H-IPS > E-IPS > TN

The end.

I second that.

I'm shopping for a new monitor. For comparison's sake, I broke out my old Dell S-IPS, a 2005FPW. It was made in 2004. It's basically old as hell now. It's still better than a TN screen, and when my new monitor comes tomorrow I can tell you how it fares compared to a new IPS. The IPS screen I have coming tomorrow is $250. The MSRP of the Dell 2005FPW was something like $750 back in the day. It's still a pretty good monitor, has S-IPS as opposed to the E-IPS my new monitor will have. It does seem like there is more noticeable variance today, but that doesn't mean that old monitors were exemplary when it came to unit-to-unit variance.
 

tangoseal

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Yes, so pick your poison or wait for the Samsung PLS display reviews

Expensive IPS (Non Eizo/NEC/Fujitsu [due to avaliability])=U2410/ZR24W/U2711/3011/ZR30w/3007-8

+viewing angles
+Accurate Color presets
+Screen Size/Real estate
-Med-High input lag (Except the ACD and ZR30w=low lag)
-Medicore contrast (except the new Glossy Hazros)
-Aggressive AG coating (except the new Glossy Hazros and ACD)
-Quality Control (not sure about the Hazros and ACD)

or

E-IPS=EA23x/U2x11H/IPS2x6V/VP2365

+/-Ok viewing angles
+Good contrast (except Viewsonic VP2365)
+Accurate Color Presets
+Low Input lag
-Screen size/real-estate
-Aggressive AG coating (except the Glossy Dell ST2220T and possibly the new Asus ML239H)
-Quality Control

Asus PA246q=Step in the right direction,

+less aggressive AG coating according to [H] Users
+good viewing angles
+low input lag
+Screen size/real estate
-medicore contrast
?not enough feedback yet to gage the QC (seems ok), but Asus added a 0 dead pixel policy recently.

And go ahead and buy a nice life insurance premium for your family because you are going to die before it makes it to LCDs.

So just go buy a freaking LCD and enjoy it. All I ever see is gripes about how suck something is on these forums.

Who cares get what your freaking eyes like or open your own business and make a perfect LCD.
 

Tyrant222

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Messages
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I second that.

I'm shopping for a new monitor. For comparison's sake, I broke out my old Dell S-IPS, a 2005FPW. It was made in 2004. It's basically old as hell now. It's still better than a TN screen, and when my new monitor comes tomorrow I can tell you how it fares compared to a new IPS. The IPS screen I have coming tomorrow is $250. The MSRP of the Dell 2005FPW was something like $750 back in the day. It's still a pretty good monitor, has S-IPS as opposed to the E-IPS my new monitor will have. It does seem like there is more noticeable variance today, but that doesn't mean that old monitors were exemplary when it came to unit-to-unit variance.


Hey ckryan,

curious, which model did you purchase?
 
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