New Conroe benches from Victor...

extra performance not needed... that does not compute.


Poncho said:
If by cat you mean AMD... then yes sir, you are correct. :D
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yes, would be a much better place if amd went out.
 
Jason711 said:
yes, would be a much better place if amd went out.
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Did I say that? I would like AMD to come in second by a few lengths while nipping at Intel's heals from time to time... but I wouldn't want them to go away completely. It's nice to have a whipping boy around. :D
 
Jason711 said:
extra performance not needed... that does not compute.
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What are the goals of Intel? Is it to make money or come out with the best performing, most expensive gear? Let me ask you this way....


Assuming you are an average user:

When you go buy/build a system go you go for the full on, DP workstation, that can cost 2-3k+ EASY? Or do you go with a Single Proc system that will cost you 1k+ less when that's all you'll need or use?

It's the same thing here.... Intel can compete without going to IMC, without the added cost or hassle in designing and validating an IMC based platform. You do realize that both AMD and Intel keep things in reserve.... it does them no good to blow their load and release the best shit they have when something less will take the crown. It's not all about performance in the business world that Intel lives in.
 
savantu said:
Umhh...I beg to differ.Maybe they can wait more on desktops , but on servers it hurts badly.Intel definetly needs some kind of new interconnect and preferably huge amount of RAM BW in their server cpus especially.The world is Intel Oregon , project Nehalem , 45nm , IMC , CSI , 2008.
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I agree with you in both of those cases. It seems like the need is much more pressing for Servers than the Desktops for Intel. Sure their new boards have two FSBs. IMHO, too much credit is given to IMC on the Desktop A64/X2, there were many Core improvements made as well. Remove the IMC from A64 and what's left would still kick the shit out of an AthlonXP. So for that other guy (not Jason) will not take this out of context, IMC is given too much credit while the While A64/X2/Opty is given NOT ENOUGH credit.

IMC better? Until Conroe and or Yonah, I'd argue more for the A64's Core, look at those apps where memory doesn't come into play as much? How about Crossbar and HT links?
 
Jason711 said:
extra performance not needed... that does not compute.

yes, would be a much better place if amd went out.
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He's an Intel employee. None of us other users want to see ANYTHING like that happen to AMD=P

You say mask latency, I say fix or improve, means the same to me. AMD fixed it by going to an IMC. Intel FIXED their's with smart hardware other than an IMC. Either way, the cat (latency) was skinned (fixed). They might get away with this on the Desktop but they'll have to do better with Multi-Proc Servers.
 
ahh.. then his opinion is now worthless to me.

i see what your getting at.. and thats reasonable. :)

Donnie27 said:
He's an Intel employee. None of us other users want to see ANYTHING like that happen to AMD=P

You say mask latency, I say fix or improve, means the same to me. AMD fixed it by going to an IMC. Intel FIXED their's with smart hardware other than an IMC. Either way, the cat (latency) was skinned (fixed). They might get away with this on the Desktop but they'll have to do better with Multi-Proc Servers.
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he is 100% bias... why should i listen to a word he has to say when its purely going to be onesided?
 
Jason711 said:
he is 100% bias... why should i listen to a word he has to say when its purely going to be onesided?
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LOL... yea, cause I won't admit that AMD does make a better product at the moment, if only on paper. :rolleyes: Really man... I'm a lot less biased than most of the fan boys on this site... AND I've got more information on the hardware than a lot of people here which to some makes my opinion MORE valuable. :rolleyes:
 
so im biased with amd because i think conroe would benefit from an IMC.. good call man! :rolleyes:
 
Poncho said:
LOL... yea, cause I won't admit that AMD does make a better product at the moment, if only on paper. :rolleyes: Really man... I'm a lot less biased than most of the fan boys on this site... AND I've got more information on the hardware than a lot of people here which to some makes my opinion MORE valuable. :rolleyes:
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yeah.. put away your intel palmpalms.. :rolleyes:
 
In before the lock to say that there needs to be a ref in this thread and Conroe looks sweet. I doubt that AMD has been sitting on their collective green arse for three years since hammers were introduced so I'll stay tuned before arguing speculatively like you all seem to be. Out.
 
Poncho said:
LOL... yea, cause I won't admit that AMD does make a better product at the moment, if only on paper. :rolleyes: Really man... I'm a lot less biased than most of the fan boys on this site... AND I've got more information on the hardware than a lot of people here which to some makes my opinion MORE valuable. :rolleyes:
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what info do you have that ppl on here do not already have, are you in intel's secret labs spilling company secrets? i mean really.. enlighten me.
 
Jason711 said:
what info do you have that ppl on here do not already have, are you in intel's secret labs spilling company secrets? i mean really.. enlighten me.
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I work with this hardware daily, as well as get the "inside scoop" on this stuff since I have access to it. AND I make it a point to not spill the "secrets." I talk about stuff that is already out there... doesn't mean that I don't know more. But really... all I'm saying is that for you to think my "opinion is worthless" since I am Intel doesn't bode to well for you. But whatever... believe what you want with your short sided view points. :rolleyes:

And I apologize for the name calling, that was out of line. Just pushed a button. Thanks Donnie.
 
Jason711 said:
so im biased with amd because i think conroe would benefit from an IMC.. good call man! :rolleyes:
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We all know this Jason . But conroe does't have IMC . Conroe still is going to be a great performer.

You act as if we don't see the benefits of IMC, we do.

But we also see the benefits of having the controller on the chipset for desk tops.

Bottom line is Conroe is a very powerful cpu. If you like IMC stay with AMD.

I for one don't care what you buy. neither should anyone else except for Intel and AMD.

I love talking about the Tech tho . on both sides of the fence but inorder to have good debates All parties in the debate should keep an open mind.
 
Poncho said:
I work with this hardware daily, as well as get the "inside scoop" on this stuff since I have access to it. AND I make it a point to not spill the "secrets." I talk about stuff that is already out there... doesn't mean that I don't know more. But really... all I'm saying is that for you to think my "opinion is worthless" since I am Intel doesn't bode to well for you. But whatever... believe what you want with your short sided view points. :rolleyes:

And I apologize for the name calling, that was out of line. Just pushed a button. Thanks Donnie.
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No Sweat!
 
To Jason

chrisf6969 said:
You can also neutralize alot of the negative performance effects of latencies using large / fast / smart caches & other creative methods (pre-fetching,etc). Both AMD & Intel have tried to minimized the effect of going to memory as much as possible using smart caches/ pre-fetching, etc.... Thats why more bandwidth & lower latency memory only helps so much.
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Maybe if he had wrote it like this you wouldn't have had a problem with his statement.
 
i fail to see how that has anything to do with what we were talking about, which is conroe.

which, i believe will be a terrific processor. hopefully the motherboard prices will go down soon. i certainly wouldnt mind getting my hands on one.

you guys are the ones who completely derailed the conversation. the guy said he is an intel employee, and from his previous posts there is no way i can respect or take his opinion seriously. he even resorted to name calling, which only reenforces my perception of him. i made that public and im very sorry if you find that offensive.

i was only making conversation that it would be neat if the conroe had an IMC, and nearly every one of you debated against it.
 
Jason711 said:
i fail to see how that has anything to do with what we were talking about, which is conroe.

which, i believe will be a terrific processor. hopefully the motherboard prices will go down soon. i certainly wouldnt mind getting my hands on one.

you guys are the ones who completely derailed the conversation. the guy said he is an intel employee, and from his previous posts there is no way i can respect or take his opinion seriously. he even resorted to name calling, which only reenforces my perception of him. i made that public and im very sorry if you find that offensive.

i was only making conversation that it would be neat if the conroe had an IMC, and nearly every one of you debated against it.
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http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1430661#post1430661

We don't know what i965 will cost and that's what I want.

I still respect his views A LOT.

Just me not speaking for anyone else. I don't think IMC on the desktop is worth the trouble of adding a Crossbar a whole new bus to talk to it and RAMBUS like links to a Alpha like Controller. See, nothing said about AMD. Intel should really get on the Ball and repalce its FSB with something like its OWN DMI/Link.

Now many folks might not take to kindly to repeted references to IMC when thread after after thread seem to hold IMC as a holy grail or something, not that you were doing that, many others are.
 
Donnie27 said:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1430661#post1430661

We don't know what i965 will cost and that's what I want.

I still respect his views A LOT.

Just me not speaking for anyone else. I don't think IMC on the desktop is worth the trouble of adding a Crossbar a whole new bus to talk to it and RAMBUS like links to a Alpha like Controller. See, nothing said about AMD. Intel should really get on the Ball and repalce its FSB with something like its OWN DMI/Link.

Now many folks might not take to kindly to repeted references to IMC when thread after after thread seem to hold IMC as a holy grail or something, not that you were doing that, many others are.
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anything to lower latency. not that im saying conroe suffers from high latency. i just think the lower the better..

i would like to see intel take things all the way, we all know they have the cash to do it. i hate to see companies hold back technology from us because they are worried about their "bottom line". and im not saying only intel is guilty of this, either.

if we can get a good board for ~$115....
 
ndruw said:
haha, I'm gonna be in the 2.4 -> 2.4 club as well,

(mines a 2.4a prescott, though)
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And I migth end up going from a P4A 2.4Ghz 400FSB to a 2.4Ghz Conore. :eek:
But I might go for the top model.
Like I did when I buildt this rig ;)

Terra - And that was a good choice back then ;)
 
Jason711 said:
anything to lower latency. not that im saying conroe suffers from high latency. i just think the lower the better..

i would like to see intel take things all the way, we all know they have the cash to do it. i hate to see companies hold back technology from us because they are worried about their "bottom line". and im not saying only intel is guilty of this, either.

if we can get a good board for ~$115....
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I agree that lower is better.

Just as I hate to see companies fatten their bottom line by overhype and etc.... .

I didn't answer one guy's question when asked;? Donnie27, why would you pay $315 for a Conroe and not $355 for a 3800+? I'll answer like this. Sorry but there's no way in hell a 3800+ or an Opteron 165 should sale for what the costed in Dec when I bought my 3500+. Where I see 3800+ as being overvalued, I see the $315 2.4GHz Conroe as undervalued. Save this post? I see their prices going up after they start shipping, not down.

So even if the mobo costs $200 and the Processor $315, that still makes it cheaper than the 4800 and 4600 alone and more than 100% cheaper or half the price of the FX-60.
 
Jason711 said:
anything to lower latency. not that im saying conroe suffers from high latency. i just think the lower the better..

i would like to see intel take things all the way, we all know they have the cash to do it. i hate to see companies hold back technology from us because they are worried about their "bottom line". and im not saying only intel is guilty of this, either.

if we can get a good board for ~$115....
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Yes and a IMC is only one method of lowering latencies, or making their negative affects much less relevant. There is more then one way to achieve this end which multiple posters have pointed out. Not that an IMC is a bad idea for improving performance in any way mind you, it just that for Intel it may not be such a great idea as it was for AMD.

Well, if AMD can design a product with greater performance then Conroe then maybe Intel will start looking at an IMC for their processors, as it stands it doesn't look like
there is a point to Intel beating AMD more, both AMD and Intel will hold some cards in their hand for emergencies, laying all your cards out on the table is suicide and a great risk if you fail.

These are corporations remember, they are out to make money, if a product is already superior to the competition, then there is no incentive to further increase the lead as resources can be spent on maximizing profits rather then further improving the product. The idea is to compete with your opponent, not obliterate them.

As was said, Intel stands to gain less then AMD will, with an IMC considering their addtional technologies to combat latencies other then IMC.
 
i also think they outta lower the a64 prices. the only real deals out there are the opteron 144 and the s754 3000+ venice.


i guess the IMC has been beaten to death.. :D
 
coldpower27 said:
Yes and a IMC is only one method of lowering latencies, or making their negative affects much less relevant. There is more then one way to achieve this end which multiple posters have pointed out. Not that an IMC is a bad idea for improving performance in any way mind you, it just that for Intel it may not be such a great idea as it was for AMD.

...
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Conroe was the last microarch without an IMC from Intel.In 2007 will have a 45nm Conroe and by late 2007 we should see the "next big thing" in action , Nehalem , which has an IMC.
 
Jason711 said:
i also think they outta lower the a64 prices. the only real deals out there are the opteron 144 and the s754 3000+ venice.

i guess the IMC has been beaten to death.. :D
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Yes it has.

Now back to Conroe. All 3 guys posting Conroe info say something like, "You haven't seen its best yet".
 
savantu said:
Conroe was the last microarch without an IMC from Intel.In 2007 will have a 45nm Conroe and by late 2007 we should see the "next big thing" in action , Nehalem , which has an IMC.
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Yes judging by the roadmaps, by H2 2007 I would expect Ridgefield 6MB which is a die shrunk Conroe on the 45nm process with 6MB cache. Also on this process, I would expect monolithic Quad cores processors codename for that if I can remember correctly is Bloomfield. Instead of the Dual Die configruation that Kentsfield/Clovertown/Tigerton seem to be.

And in 2008, I would expect the introduction of Nehalem on the 45nm which should include that CSI thing hopefully Intel is working on and hopefully an IMC as well.
 
Donnie27 said:
Yes it has.

Now back to Conroe. All 3 guys posting Conroe info say something like, "You haven't seen its best yet".
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well, that doesnt say a whole lot. leaves far too much speculation.
 
Jason711 said:
well, that doesnt say a whole lot. leaves far too much speculation.
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Says a whole lot since these guys have the real hardware and don't have to speculate. Victor Wang use to lean towards AMD if that helps any.
 
Donnie27 said:
Says a whole lot since these guys have the real hardware and don't have to speculate. Victor Wang use to lean towards AMD if that helps any.
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that doest tell US much.. im sure they know a lot more. i like details. :)
 
believe me when I say....most employee experts that post on boards
only know which end of the broom sweeps around a computer.

sparks
 
sparks said:
believe me when I say....most employee experts that post on boards
only know which end of the broom sweeps around a computer.

sparks
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Ouch!
 
Jason711 said:
i also think they outta lower the a64 prices. the only real deals out there are the opteron 144 and the s754 3000+ venice.


i guess the IMC has been beaten to death.. :D
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They are planning to.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=2041

Well considering both the Opteron 144 and Athlon 64 3000+ are processors that aren't listed on AMD's official pricing page. They are nice deals though as long as supply remains in the channel and reasonable prices.
 
Donnie27 said:
They'll be cut a lot more than that by Sept.
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Hopefully, because if they do cut the Single Cores further, that allows AMD to keep it's 50-60% cost of Dual Core rule, and then there is room to drop the prices of the Dual Cores.
 
perplex said:
Will there be further price cuts on the Presler lineup?
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When Conroe launches , bringing the price of a 950 to the incredible sum of 241$.
 
savantu said:
When Conroe launches , bringing the price of a 950 to the incredible sum of 241$.
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This is why I may not go for Conroe afterall. These Presler price drops are very attractive. I don't need much power, just enough to get 99fps constant in CS 1.6 :cool: and general smooth usage.
 
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