New B&W MM-1 computer speakers and other options

Vega

Supreme [H]ardness
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B&W is releasing what looks to be high-end computer speakers called the MM-1's. http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=4503 If you do not know who B&W are, they make quality home theater speakers. The interesting thing is that they also have essentially a build in DAC, the main part of a sound card. The speakers only connect through USB, no sound card required. The MM-1's are supposedly going to be launched in March with a retail of around $500-$650.

I am looking to upgrade my computer sound system. Currently I have a Creative Labs Sound Blaster 2 Audigy Gamer and a Creative Labs S750 speaker system. The S750's keep turning off with well know power supply issues and I do not use the 7.1 speakers so it is time to upgrade to a top of the line 2.0 or 2.1 system.

I've looked into the Creative Labs T3 and Razer Mako but I've found a lot of rave reviews about the Audioengine A5 and A2's. Stereophile magazine out of all magazines gave the A2's a stellar review. The A5's would be too large and awkward for my desk.

How would the Audigy 2 ZS Gamer I bought back in like 2004 compare in sound quality to like the Asus Xonar Essense STX? I've read that is pretty much the best sound card at the moment.

My options would be to purchase the Asus Xonar Essense STX for $200 and the Audioengine A2's for $200 or wait a month and try and get the B&W MM-1's for about $100 to $200 more. My only concern would be about the sound quality interface between using some sort of software, through USB to the onboard electronics in the MM-1's. On another note, I wonder if the B&W's will require more computer CPU power due to the software/USB type audio connection.

Thoughts?
 
$500-600 for a 1" tweeter and 3" mid? Huh...no thanks, there are plenty of PC speakers that fit that bill for $100.

1.8lbs per satellite...even the Klipsch iFis are built more solidly than this (5lbs/each) and they cost $199. I thought the B&W Zepplin was a rip-off and even that looks like a better deal than this.

And yes B&W makes quality speakers...if you like the 1980s "happy face" equalizer sound. Dynaudio is the true European hi-fi brand as they built their speakers for neutrality.
 
$500-600 for a 1" tweeter and 3" mid? Huh...no thanks, there are plenty of PC speakers that fit that bill for $100.

1.8lbs per satellite...even the Klipsch iFis are built more solidly than this (5lbs/each) and they cost $199. I thought the B&W Zepplin was a rip-off and even that looks like a better deal than this.

And yes B&W makes quality speakers...if you like the 1980s "happy face" equalizer sound. Dynaudio is the true European hi-fi brand as they built their speakers for neutrality.
A smiley face equalizer curve has boosted highs, boosted lows, and no mids. Look at every single frequency response graph for B&W's real speakers, it looks nothing like that. In fact, just listen to them, they sound nothing like that. B&W's have always had a very pronounced mid-range. Their contemporary, "cool" products are atrocious yes, their entire product line-up? No. The B&Ws don't measure flat like Dynaudio or Harbeth speakers but there are lots of great sounding speakers that aren't voiced to be neutral.
 
Which are their...real speakers?

This is their 802D that runs $12,000/pair.

1205802fig4.jpg
 
And that's a smiley face curve again how?

Dynaudio Sapphire:

109Dysfig6.jpg


Sonus Faber Cremona Elipsa:

1207SFEfig04.jpg
 
While I highly respect B&W for their quality products, spending $600 for those is worse than getting Bose. One can do a lot better with $600 at hand.
 
$500-600 for a 1" tweeter and 3" mid? Huh...no thanks, there are plenty of PC speakers that fit that bill for $100.

1.8lbs per satellite...even the Klipsch iFis are built more solidly than this (5lbs/each) and they cost $199. I thought the B&W Zepplin was a rip-off and even that looks like a better deal than this.

And yes B&W makes quality speakers...if you like the 1980s "happy face" equalizer sound. Dynaudio is the true European hi-fi brand as they built their speakers for neutrality.

Since when does the tweeter and woofer size matter compared to the price? It's about great sound out of a small package for a computer desk. I've heard your normal $100 PC speakers, they sound like crap. Plus, being so small they do not need to weigh as much as a cinder block to make good sound. Plus they are not just speakers, essentially having a "built in" sound card.
 
Keep it real man. $600 for a pair of speakers? Thats F.U. money territory.

Thats the sort of money I'd spend if building a cherry-wood set of floorstanders with exotic drivers. Not for some plastic desktop shit :)
 
While I highly respect B&W for their quality products, spending $600 for those is worse than getting Bose. One can do a lot better with $600 at hand.

I don't know how such assumptions can be made without hearing them or reading any reviews. If they sound great I am easily willing to spend $600 If I get a new sound card and the Audioengine A2's, I'm already up to $400. What would you recommend for $600 in a computer speaker setup?
 
Keep it real man. $600 for a pair of speakers? Thats F.U. money territory.

Thats the sort of money I'd spend if building a cherry-wood set of floorstanders with exotic drivers. Not for some plastic desktop shit :)

I just spent $7,000 on my home theater speakers so $600 for computer speakers isn't too bad ;).
 
I don't think its the $600 for PC speakers that people are against, its paying $600 for those tiny things. I think many speaker companies are now joining the BOSE bandwagon. :(

For $600, get some KRK RP6s and save some money, or get some RP5s and a decent sub and blow those tiny B&Ws out of the water.
 
And that's a smiley face curve again how?

Dynaudio Sapphire:

109Dysfig6.jpg


Sonus Faber Cremona Elipsa:

1207SFEfig04.jpg

The one I linked *is* what they call a smiley curve, aka British Sound, coined in the 80s. If you have a problem with the colloquial naming convention, you are talking to the wrong person.

I don't know what Sonus Faber's design philosophy is, but they make wonderful looking speakers. As far as the Dynaudio curve, it's falls within +/- 2.5db from 60hz up, and most importantly, it's completely flat in the midrange (from 1KHz to 6KHz) whereas the B&Ws dip and then peak, a differential of 5db from 1.5KHz to 3KHz, a range where the human is the most sensitive. It's clear the Dynaudios should not be run full range for home theater as the low bass response is uneven.
 
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Since when does the tweeter and woofer size matter compared to the price? It's about great sound out of a small package for a computer desk. I've heard your normal $100 PC speakers, they sound like crap. Plus, being so small they do not need to weigh as much as a cinder block to make good sound. Plus they are not just speakers, essentially having a "built in" sound card.

Weigh less compared to a similarly sized speaker--less bracing, dampening, more resonance, less clarity.
 
The one I linked *is* what they call a smiley curve, aka British Sound, coined in the 80s. If you have a problem with the colloquial naming convention, you are talking to the wrong person.

I don't know what Sonus Faber's design philosophy is, but they make wonderful looking speakers. As far as the Dynaudio curve, it's falls within +/- 2.5db from 60hz up, and most importantly, it's completely flat in the midrange (from 1KHz to 6KHz) whereas the B&Ws dip and then peak, a differential of 5db from 1.5KHz to 3KHz, a range where the human is the most sensitive. It's clear the Dynaudios should not be run full range for home theater as the low bass response is uneven.

I guess we can agree to disagree then. Imo, across the spectrum, the frequency response of the 802's is more consistent than that of the Sapphire's.

Black: B&W 802D
Blue: Dynaudio Sapphire



By your analysis, the Sapphire's frequency response also represents a smiley curve with its grills off. As I've explained, I'm not a proponent of frequency response scrutiny; there are dozens of speakers I can think of that don't measure flat but sound great. I'm just sayin'.

Red: Dynaudio Sapphire (Grills off)
Blue: Dynaudio Sapphire (Grills on)

109Dysfig6.jpg


The AV123 Onix Reference 1s are what I consider to be a clear example of the smiley face curve. The B&W's, to me, are not.

409Avofig5.jpg
 
Hmmm, I think the problem is that there is no definition of what defines a "smiley face" curve. In general once could try to put a measurable definition such as the degree of curvature that you can fit to the frequency spectrum (such as using a power series based or exponential based curve). The greater the curvature, the stronger the "smiley face". ;)

You can basically have three variables, one being the actual curvature of the fit (higher power equals greater curvature), the next being where the base of the curve lies in the frequency axis (offset in the x axis), and the third being how high up in the db axis is the base of the curve (offset in the y axis).

However, this would also depend on the degree to which the fit curve actually fits the real curve. So there will have to be some sort of regression fit value that will determine how well the fit curve actually represents the real curve.

And after all that is done, one still has a whole boat load of interpretation you can make depending on one speaker having a bigger smile than the other. For example is a smiley smoother real curve worse than a flatter but bumpier (more spikes and dips at certain frequencies) curve? Etc.

And after all of that, I still wouldn't know which speaker I like better.
 
I don't know how such assumptions can be made without hearing them or reading any reviews. If they sound great I am easily willing to spend $600 If I get a new sound card and the Audioengine A2's, I'm already up to $400. What would you recommend for $600 in a computer speaker setup?

For $600, you can get bookshelves from various brands and a receiver or amplifier (new or used). There are quite a few companies out there that stock bookshelf speakers priced at about $300 including Paradigm, Klipsch, and much much more... Spending $300 on quality speakers leaves you with $300 to spend on an amp/receiver. You can also get some legendary used items for that cost. An Emotiva UPA-2 amp for example goes for about $300 and is one hell of an amp for the money. I am comparing apples to apples, a 2.0 PC system vs. a 2.0 bookshelf system – for $600. The amp I linked is definitely on the larger side, however there are compact amps if one needed so.

I don’t need to read any reviews, the speakers are designed to be compact for everyday computer tasks, and they are not targeted to being an indoor concert. I’m sure B&W just targets these speakers for the average Joe that wants to watch something on YouTube or to chat on Skype or something or the sort, granted, the average Joe with quite the budget. Driver size does matter, the bigger the driver, the more sound is able to fill the room, and the more music feels complete. The bigger the driver, the deeper the low end frequencies, and bass is always a good thing.

This is a 2.0 system without a subwoofer, bringing me to my next point.

According to B&W:
Powerful bass is important for movies and games – and it's something MM-1 delivers in spades, thanks to Dynamic EQ technology that maximizes bass output. So no need for a separate subwoofer.

Powerful bass? From two 3” woofers? seriously? I think not. You can’t even add a subwoofer if you wanted to. The fact that they mentioned something absurd as that just highlights who exactly this product is being marketed to.

And just for that reason, I’d rather get a $100 2.1 Logitech/Klipsch Promedia system that at least has some decent sense of bass, than not have any at all. Sure, the mids and highs might sound good with B&W’s good ol’ famed tweeters, but without bass, it’s all just soul-less sound. This is not to say that bookshelves alone are bass monsters on their own, they’re not, but they would be better than what the B&W system can achieve (of course, it depends alot on the bookshelf set). Not to mention, with a bookshelf set, at least you have the option of adding a subwoofer in the future.

The bottom line: If you are looking for high quality audio setup to which you want to enjoy your music and movies, you can do a lot better for $600. If you want this just to watch YouTube, stream audio, or simply carry out computer tasks, then it’s a $600 waste as any Logitech system would carry out the job just as well. If compact is of extreme importance, honestly, for $600, I'd get an awesome pair of headphones.
 
I'm inclined to agree. The Logitech Z-520 (tweeter/tweeter/mid), the Klipsch 2.0 Ultra (tweeter/mid/mid), and the Gigaworks T40 (mid/tweeter/mid) are all bigger and I'm willing to bet for $100 will sound better and go deeper; they are also bigger with heavier satellites. It's a sad day when multimedia companies build more solid enclosures than a "real audio" company.


The AV123 Onix Reference 1s are what I consider to be a clear example of the smiley face curve. The B&W's, to me, are not.

I always wondered why AV123's owner praised the Ascend Sierra so much about it's accuracy when his own design philosophy is about making warm sounding speakers. And the Sapphires look like they were voiced with the grill on. You can see from pictures of the grill that it sits flush with the baffle, meant to reduce diffraction.
 
For $600, you can get bookshelves from various brands and a receiver or amplifier (new or used). There are quite a few companies out there that stock bookshelf speakers priced at about $300 including Paradigm, Klipsch, and much much more... Spending $300 on quality speakers leaves you with $300 to spend on an amp/receiver. You can also get some legendary used items for that cost. An Emotiva UPA-2 amp for example goes for about $300 and is one hell of an amp for the money. I am comparing apples to apples, a 2.0 PC system vs. a 2.0 bookshelf system – for $600. The amp I linked is definitely on the larger side, however there are compact amps if one needed so.

I don’t need to read any reviews, the speakers are designed to be compact for everyday computer tasks, and they are not targeted to being an indoor concert. I’m sure B&W just targets these speakers for the average Joe that wants to watch something on YouTube or to chat on Skype or something or the sort, granted, the average Joe with quite the budget. Driver size does matter, the bigger the driver, the more sound is able to fill the room, and the more music feels complete. The bigger the driver, the deeper the low end frequencies, and bass is always a good thing.

This is a 2.0 system without a subwoofer, bringing me to my next point.

According to B&W:


Powerful bass? From two 3” woofers? seriously? I think not. You can’t even add a subwoofer if you wanted to. The fact that they mentioned something absurd as that just highlights who exactly this product is being marketed to.

And just for that reason, I’d rather get a $100 2.1 Logitech/Klipsch Promedia system that at least has some decent sense of bass, than not have any at all. Sure, the mids and highs might sound good with B&W’s good ol’ famed tweeters, but without bass, it’s all just soul-less sound. This is not to say that bookshelves alone are bass monsters on their own, they’re not, but they would be better than what the B&W system can achieve (of course, it depends alot on the bookshelf set). Not to mention, with a bookshelf set, at least you have the option of adding a subwoofer in the future.

The bottom line: If you are looking for high quality audio setup to which you want to enjoy your music and movies, you can do a lot better for $600. If you want this just to watch YouTube, stream audio, or simply carry out computer tasks, then it’s a $600 waste as any Logitech system would carry out the job just as well. If compact is of extreme importance, honestly, for $600, I'd get an awesome pair of headphones.

Some good thoughts here. I've looked up the KVK speakers that were recommended in this thread. They look great, but too large for my desk. I really do not need speakers that fill the whole room with sound. I have my very nice Vienna Acoustics home theater system for that.

I need really good sounding near field computer desk speakers of relatively small size. I know headphones can make awesome sound. I use them for Counter-Strike source for accurate positioning, but I can not use headphones all day when sitting at the computer.

I also find it kind of silly for B&W to say that 3" woofers could have "powerful" Bass. Granted, most people turn Bass up too high when they have sub-woofers. I wonder if it would be impossible to add a sub-woofer to the B&W MM-1 setup. I'd imagine if you plugged in headphones to the front jack, the speakers turn off. That rules that out as an audio source. Maybe you could use the high-level speaker wire that goes from one speaker to the next. I am just curious if the B&W's have an amp in one speaker and the other is passive or if they have individual amps in there. Depending on how they connect to each other, unless it is purely digital from speaker to speaker, there has to be a way to steal an analogue signal for a sub-woofer.

That all said, I bought a pair of Audioengine A2's to try out with their great 30-day test drive. With so many great reviews and for $179, how can you go wrong? Hopefully some good reviews of the B&W's will be out before the Audioengine's 30-day trial is up. Of course, if the Audioengine A2's sound great I will just keep them and buy the Asus Xonar Essense STX audio card to go along with them.
 
Either a stand alone processor or a receiver with pre-outs would be needed to add a sub. If you really had the money to do that though, then you would have to life under extreme size constraints--either WAF, or you are paying $7,000 a month for a 1-room studio in manhattan.
 
The A5 does have a sub-out but the A2 does not. :(

Strange, the speaker that needs the sub more doesnt have a sub out.
 
The A5 does have a sub-out but the A2 does not. :(

Strange, the speaker that needs the sub more doesnt have a sub out.

I am not too concerned about that, I will just use a high quality RCA Y-cable to split the signal from the sound card.
 
Ya.... I'm not seeing these as worth $600. Don't get me wrong, B&W makes solid stuff, but I really think you can do better for the money. Only way these might be worth it is if space is at an extreme premium and you want the highest quality you can get out of mini computer speakers. However with a 3" woofer, you aren't getting good bass no matter how well built they are.

If you aren't space constrained, but demand 2.0 desktop speakers, I'd look at the Studiophile BX8a instead. $200ish less and will give you much better bass.
 
I am not too concerned about that, I will just use a high quality RCA Y-cable to split the signal from the sound card.

Sounds good (no pun intended). Then go buy a nice sub with the $400 money you saved over buying the B&W and have a very nice setup. I hear the A2s are nice. The only point is that they don't have good bass but a sub will fix that. Nice thing is that when you are abroad, the A2 probably by themselves are almost equivalent to the sound capability and size as the B&Ws. And when at home, the sub combo will blow the B&W away and dance on its grave.
 
look at the HiVi M200MKIII if you are looking at the A5's

imo the Swans are better, however with a cut off around 100hz you'd prob want a sub if you are not into the audiophiles punchy bass sound

also these are only rated at 120w for 2 channel, but they do throw the sound very well
 
I also find it kind of silly for B&W to say that 3" woofers could have "powerful" Bass. Granted, most people turn Bass up too high when they have sub-woofers. I wonder if it would be impossible to add a sub-woofer to the B&W MM-1 setup.

Same thing I'm wondering. That said, according to their website the cutoff is 57Hz on the low end, somewhere in between the M-1 (great for little speakers but they need a sub) and the CM1 (which are the rear surrounds in my system). I'm looking forward to test driving these next month. I really want to replace my Klipsch 5.1, I'm space constrained (I'll be selling my M-Audio pair as well), and I really don't want another subwoofer for my computer, but I also want a step up in audio quality and most computer speakers (Logitech/Creative/etc) sound like dogshit. I really want this to be good, but if it isn't worth it then I'll have to keep looking.
 
Ok, I picked these up a few days ago, ready to return them if I wasn't happy with them.

In a word, WOW.

Hands down the best set of compact computer speakers I've listened to. Nothing I've listened to comes close, Swans included. High end and midrange is ridiculously clear and detailed, bass is surprisingly good considering that this is taking me away from a powered sub, sound stage is great. Music has never sounded so good on my desktop. The only thing that could be improved is if there was an optional subwoofer output for people that want chest-thumping bass. That or if I could do something like get a set of CM1 bookshelf speakers and a small receiver or stereo amplifier, and I really don't have the space nor the desire to do so (crowded enough with a 24" and 27" displays here).

Again, I'm kind of amazed that these sound so good. Looks like my ancient Klipsch 5.1s are going on eBay soon. :)
 
Do you use any stands or padding? Those things run full range and only weigh 1.8lbs, I imagine there accelerometer resonance measurements would be nasty.
 
Terrible value for money, on a good day on eBay you could buy two pairs of Spendor BC-1's with change left over.
 
Solstice - Fantastic. Now tell me how I'm supposed to fit a full size three way speaker on my desktop between 24" and 27" LCDs. I don't even have the room for something like that and amplification anywhere in my home office, that's what the living room is for.
 
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Do you use any stands or padding? Those things run full range and only weigh 1.8lbs, I imagine there accelerometer resonance measurements would be nasty.

You know, I haven't noticed anything remotely nasty but you bring up a good point. I'll give it a try and see if things are further improved.

One thing I'll say about something like the B&W M-1 speaker is that they're tiny but they're also 6lbs a piece, really beefy. The MM-1 is lighter which could introduce problems, but at the same time the M-1 is made to fill a small room while the sweet spot of the MM-1 is extremely specific; you sitting at your desktop. Listening to them from my doorway and listening to them while sitting down are two very different things when it comes to good recordings.

They're pretty solid and have thick rubber pads that run the entire circumference of the base, but I'll see if anything more improves the sound at all. Thanks.
 
Maybe I missed it, but what amp are you using with the M-1?
 
Are we talking about the M-1 (B&W's little home theater speaker) or the MM-1 (their computer desktop speaker)?

The M-1 isn't mine, its my mom's, helped her pick it out after I got tired of listening to the audio coming out of her TV. :) I forget which receiver she has. They sound great though, way way better than I was expecting for the price and size. They only place they're lacking is bass, but that's why we got a little Velodyne sub to fill in the rest.

The MM-1 is self-powered like any other desktop speaker, no amp required.
 
Are we talking about the M-1 (B&W's little home theater speaker) or the MM-1 (their computer desktop speaker)?

The M-1 isn't mine, its my mom's, helped her pick it out after I got tired of listening to the audio coming out of her TV. :) I forget which receiver she has. They sound great though, way way better than I was expecting for the price and size. They only place they're lacking is bass, but that's why we got a little Velodyne sub to fill in the rest.

The MM-1 is self-powered like any other desktop speaker, no amp required.

which ones did you say were "wow"
 
I am talking about the desktop speakers in this thread. I'm really loving them for listening to music.

Which is? This seems to be a thread on ambiguity. I presume you mean the M1 since you said desktop and not computer speakers and you mentioned M1 previously, but it would be nice to just come out and say which one ("I am talking about the (M1 or MM1) when I said wow").
 
Which is? This seems to be a thread on ambiguity. I presume you mean the M1 since you said desktop and not computer speakers and you mentioned M1 previously, but it would be nice to just come out and say which one ("I am talking about the (M1 or MM1) when I said wow").

I am talking about the MM-1 speakers. I didn't think there would be any confusion as the M1 are mini home theater speakers, not desktop speakers. Apologies for any confusion.
 
I have these and to this day am sad they stopped making them. I doubt the T40's are in the same league.

/sigh

I can't speak for the T40 but I've owned the Klipsch 2.0 Ultra, the 2.1, and the 5.1, and none come anywhere close to the MM-1.
 
I am talking about the MM-1 speakers. I didn't think there would be any confusion as the M1 are mini home theater speakers, not desktop speakers. Apologies for any confusion.


Thank you. Hmmm I may need to rethink about these speakers.
 
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