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vafan13

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Just about two years ago I researched and picked up a few 22-24" LCDs in my price range, wasn't satisfied, returned them and picked up a used FW900 for $120. I'm about to move into a new apartment and I figured it is time to finally give up on CRTs and move up to LCDs.

Anyways, where do things stand as far as 120Hz and LED backlighting (are they widely available/in some of the less expensive models now?). I've noticed TNs are still very popular in the lower price ranges. Have they gotten any better as far as IQ? And what the heck is the deal with monitors going 1920x1080? Am I going to be able to find a newer model with 1920x1200 or am I going to be forced to go the 1080 route?

Thanks =)
 
uh...stick with the FW900. Cheap LCDs will be a huge downgrade in quality.
 
120hz and LED backlighting are only available in HDTVs, and most 120hz TVs are not true 120hz displays. There are several LED backlit displays, but don't be fooled, LED backlighting does nothing to improve image quality except in the case of localized dynamic backlighting, which is non-existant except in extremely high end HDTVs.
 
Well things are different since those days and not much better im afraid. First big change is invasion of the TN panels. I recently purchased a viewsonic vx2433 (yes a TN) and can say that TN's have improved a bit as far as wretched viewing angles are concerned. This may in part be due to glossy screens, dynamic contrast, lack of height adjustable stands ( these seem to have disappeared while desirable, they accent the poor TN viewing angles when not adjusted to a proper height, manufacturers for this reason dont offer one at all).

It's a common problem everywhere, BLING OVER FUNCTION!! All those shiny plastic bezels are hugely annoying and catch all kinds of distracting reflections, I can only assume that the shiny plastic is cheaper, its certainly thinner, gone too are the adjustable stands and metal weighted bases. The result? a cheaply made product with a lower price. It's as though everyone is more concerned about how a monitor is going to look in their room when it's turned off than they are about how the screen looks or adjusting its height when it's up and running. I can sum this crowd up with one word.........STUPID!!!!

As an owner of an LG246 wpbn with a PMVA panel ( my favorite type of lcd panel, a good happy medium between SPVA and SIPS without the drawbacks of either). I still find it difficult to use a TN panel but since its only for a secondary computer relegated to torrents and other menial tasks, the viewsonic works out well.

ANOTHER PROBLEM ........ this obsession with 1900x1080, everyone seems to think this is an improvement WRONG...............the panels are an inch shorter and an inch wider, at native 1080 text looks very odd and things look stretched and you STILL have black bars when viewing 1080p content. The entire reason for making panels 1080 was to cut an inch off the height and save money, THATS IT!! So for every oh say ten to twelve lcd panels at 1920x1200 being reduced to 1080 means they can manufacture an extra panel. I say again 1900x1080 is NOT a very pleasant computing resolution and who in their right mind besides someone in a dorm room, prison or some other confines would want to watch movies on such a small screen to begin with. Now the viewsonic is a 24 inch panel so it offers me the same width as my LG 1920x1200 panel does, but many 22 inch panels are also 1080 with even less vertical space and a resolution that just doesnt work well for their size or

Trouble is most consumers are extremely ignorant where lcd panels are concerned, be it TN, MVA, PVA, IPS etc. most dont know there is a difference. For those of us that do we find ourselves in a quaqmire looking for good quality computer lcd panels or consider moving up to a 32 inch lcd tv and using this as a monitor ( seems to be where all the PMVA panels have gone to).

As for contemporary TN panels.......... the panels are either LG, CHIMEI, SAMSUNG or AU optronics ( a part of acer just like benq). Hanns? supposedly makes their own but as for Asus and other brands......they are using the lcd panels of the forementioned companies and all have the same features. If youre looking at a TN panels your best bet is to find the best deal and go with the best price. Aside from a few defective monitors here and there ( every company has a bad apple or two in their line ups) a TN panel is a TN panel is a TN panel. Many of the claimed 2ms panels use some sort of trickery to arrive at this number and as is the case with dynamic contrast or wide colour gamut, its best to go with the standard settings. I game all day long with an 8 ms PMVA panel ( my lg246) and have no problems whatsoever with lag so I find it amusing when I read about 5ms panels that people seem to think are too slow especially when talking about laptops because those panels are generally 12 to 16 ms response including gaming laptops.

My recent viewsonic 2433 purchase was reasonable for its size but its TN and it still has shifting from the poor viewing angles unless looking straight on, it is improved from the samsung 930b which was my first lcd but its still the poorest characteristic of a TN panel. There are very few 24 inch panels with SPVA or SIPS, none have PMVA anymore and HP has one 22 inch that IS SPVA at a cost of 379 at tigerdirect. If you are in the market for a 22 inch panel SPEND THE EXTRA DOUGH and get the HP with SPVA lcd panel, all high quality panels will have 178 degree horizontal and vertical viewing angles and as such are well worth the extra money. For work or for a secondary panel a TN lcd is a decent economical choice.

I see no difference in 120 hz panels and there are a few of them that ive studied in detail both in gaming, browsing and day to day use.....you can research this on your own but at this time 120hz is more of a gimmick than anything whether we are talking computer monitor or HDTV. Those who say otherwise are those who sing the praises of TN panels and I am certainly not one of them dont know any better. Refresh rate does NOT have the same relevance that it did with CRT monitor.

If the only thing youve ever known for a restaurant was Mc Donalds" ( insert TN panel in this analogy)..........then you might not appreciate the difference in eating at a five star restaurant ( think PMVA, SPVA, IPS panel here) and find it extremely odd that someone would pay soo much more for a meal none the wiser for the difference in quality. Hell you can go thru the drive thru.............fast...........and get a happy meal...........bling...........dont git that kinda stuff at a five star restaurant.....well tarnation!!
 
Jospeh said:
uh...stick with the FW900. Cheap LCDs will be a huge downgrade in quality.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the FW900, as much as I love it, is enormous, weighs 85 pounds and more or less acts like a space heater. It is also, unfortunately, on the road to the grave. Certainly I could pick one up that is on better shape, but I don't know if I really want to commit to years more with one of these hot monsters, as great as the picture is.
 
conghelach said:
There are very few 24 inch panels with SPVA or SIPS, none have PMVA anymore and HP has one 22 inch that IS SPVA at a cost of 379 at tigerdirect. If you are in the market for a 22 inch panel SPEND THE EXTRA DOUGH and get the HP with SPVA lcd panel
Click to expand...

Would there be something similar to this option, but just above 24" as opposed to just below 24 that you would recommend?
 
a quality Plasma HDTV would be a good upgrade from CRT

I like the Panasonic G10 -- have a 50" myself
 
I'd reccomend the dell ultrasharp 2209wa. It's an e-ips panel, with excelent color representation, and almost non existant input lag. I have one, which I use for gaming, and I have to say it's amazing. If you call a dell home and business representitive, you may be able to get one for around $200, but be ready to wait 3-5 weeks to get it. They are extremely backordered.

Link to the Dell Ultrasharp 2209wa thread here.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1387587
 
nec 2490 wuxi, nec 2490wuxi2 both 24 inchers. the HP 2475 is widegamut, not really handy.
eizo might be a 2nd option after nec, if you choose one with an ips panel.
look for the graphical pro monitors. (prad.de etc)
 
I don't have the monitor but from others user reports and a review I think is on www.prad.de it has been resolved and is now comparable with similar monitors.
 
I see people referring to wide gamut as a bad thing, even tho manufacturers seem to think its a good thing.. What's up with this? Isn't more color always good? :D
 
I am not sure what it means despite having a wide gamut monitor, I know people usually say that colours look too saturated and are not accurate representations of what is being displayed but personally I like it.

Is it perhaps as bad a sin as people who like boomy base instead of natural sounding bass?
 
uberowo said:
I see people referring to wide gamut as a bad thing, even tho manufacturers seem to think its a good thing.. What's up with this? Isn't more color always good? :D
Click to expand...

Thats what the marketing department would have you believe, but in reality it is a bad thing for 99% of the people out there and if you have to ask, you are in the 99%.

If you happen to like ridiculous neon colors and people looking like they have sunburns all the time. You can do the same effect with your digitial vibrance/saturation control in your graphic card drivers.

But if you get a monitor that does this, and you want normal looking colors, you are pretty much stuck with a mess and a bunch of hassles trying to undo it (which you can never completely achieve).

As far as lag on the Dell 2408 (A02), I saw a recent test vs the Dell 2209wa and the Dell 2408 was still about 2 frames (~32ms) behind the 2209wa. So It certainly isn't among the faster monitors.
 
Last edited:
gersson said:
a quality Plasma HDTV would be a good upgrade from CRT

I like the Panasonic G10 -- have a 50" myself
Click to expand...
i have the exact same plasma and do not find the image stable enough for static desktop work

especially the lighter colors do not look as stable as on an lcd

ofcourse for moving images (like a movie / game) it is awesome!!

i do use it for desktop work now and then, because my 19" CRT is simply broke (an even more unstable / unpleasant image)
but most of the time i use my laptop with remote desktop connection to control my desktop (15,4" 1920x1200 IPS kick ass laptop screen)

unfortunatly my good ol' Dell D810 Laptop with the kick ass screen will soon have to make place for a HP Elitebook 6930p with a shitty crappy sucky 14" TN screen :(
so then i'll really have to start looking for a new desktop LCD :(
 
volt01 said:
I'd reccomend the dell ultrasharp 2209wa. It's an e-ips panel, with excelent color representation, and almost non existant input lag. I have one, which I use for gaming, and I have to say it's amazing. If you call a dell home and business representitive, you may be able to get one for around $200, but be ready to wait 3-5 weeks to get it. They are extremely backordered.

Link to the Dell Ultrasharp 2209wa thread here.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1387587
Click to expand...
Snowdog said:
As far as lag on the Dell 2408 (A02), I saw a recent test vs the Dell 2209wa and the Dell 2408 was still about 2 frames (~32ms) behind the 2209wa. So It certainly isn't among the faster monitors.
Click to expand...

Isn't the 2209wa discontinued now?
 
conghelach said:
Well things are different since those days and not much better im afraid. First big change is invasion of the TN panels. I recently purchased a viewsonic vx2433 (yes a TN) and can say that TN's have improved a bit as far as wretched viewing angles are concerned. This may in part be due to glossy screens, dynamic contrast, lack of height adjustable stands ( these seem to have disappeared while desirable, they accent the poor TN viewing angles when not adjusted to a proper height, manufacturers for this reason dont offer one at all).

It's a common problem everywhere, BLING OVER FUNCTION!! All those shiny plastic bezels are hugely annoying and catch all kinds of distracting reflections, I can only assume that the shiny plastic is cheaper, its certainly thinner, gone too are the adjustable stands and metal weighted bases. The result? a cheaply made product with a lower price. It's as though everyone is more concerned about how a monitor is going to look in their room when it's turned off than they are about how the screen looks or adjusting its height when it's up and running. I can sum this crowd up with one word.........STUPID!!!!

As an owner of an LG246 wpbn with a PMVA panel ( my favorite type of lcd panel, a good happy medium between SPVA and SIPS without the drawbacks of either). I still find it difficult to use a TN panel but since its only for a secondary computer relegated to torrents and other menial tasks, the viewsonic works out well.

ANOTHER PROBLEM ........ this obsession with 1900x1080, everyone seems to think this is an improvement WRONG...............the panels are an inch shorter and an inch wider, at native 1080 text looks very odd and things look stretched and you STILL have black bars when viewing 1080p content. The entire reason for making panels 1080 was to cut an inch off the height and save money, THATS IT!! So for every oh say ten to twelve lcd panels at 1920x1200 being reduced to 1080 means they can manufacture an extra panel. I say again 1900x1080 is NOT a very pleasant computing resolution and who in their right mind besides someone in a dorm room, prison or some other confines would want to watch movies on such a small screen to begin with. Now the viewsonic is a 24 inch panel so it offers me the same width as my LG 1920x1200 panel does, but many 22 inch panels are also 1080 with even less vertical space and a resolution that just doesnt work well for their size or

Trouble is most consumers are extremely ignorant where lcd panels are concerned, be it TN, MVA, PVA, IPS etc. most dont know there is a difference. For those of us that do we find ourselves in a quaqmire looking for good quality computer lcd panels or consider moving up to a 32 inch lcd tv and using this as a monitor ( seems to be where all the PMVA panels have gone to).

As for contemporary TN panels.......... the panels are either LG, CHIMEI, SAMSUNG or AU optronics ( a part of acer just like benq). Hanns? supposedly makes their own but as for Asus and other brands......they are using the lcd panels of the forementioned companies and all have the same features. If youre looking at a TN panels your best bet is to find the best deal and go with the best price. Aside from a few defective monitors here and there ( every company has a bad apple or two in their line ups) a TN panel is a TN panel is a TN panel. Many of the claimed 2ms panels use some sort of trickery to arrive at this number and as is the case with dynamic contrast or wide colour gamut, its best to go with the standard settings. I game all day long with an 8 ms PMVA panel ( my lg246) and have no problems whatsoever with lag so I find it amusing when I read about 5ms panels that people seem to think are too slow especially when talking about laptops because those panels are generally 12 to 16 ms response including gaming laptops.

My recent viewsonic 2433 purchase was reasonable for its size but its TN and it still has shifting from the poor viewing angles unless looking straight on, it is improved from the samsung 930b which was my first lcd but its still the poorest characteristic of a TN panel. There are very few 24 inch panels with SPVA or SIPS, none have PMVA anymore and HP has one 22 inch that IS SPVA at a cost of 379 at tigerdirect. If you are in the market for a 22 inch panel SPEND THE EXTRA DOUGH and get the HP with SPVA lcd panel, all high quality panels will have 178 degree horizontal and vertical viewing angles and as such are well worth the extra money. For work or for a secondary panel a TN lcd is a decent economical choice.

I see no difference in 120 hz panels and there are a few of them that ive studied in detail both in gaming, browsing and day to day use.....you can research this on your own but at this time 120hz is more of a gimmick than anything whether we are talking computer monitor or HDTV. Those who say otherwise are those who sing the praises of TN panels and I am certainly not one of them dont know any better. Refresh rate does NOT have the same relevance that it did with CRT monitor.

If the only thing youve ever known for a restaurant was Mc Donalds" ( insert TN panel in this analogy)..........then you might not appreciate the difference in eating at a five star restaurant ( think PMVA, SPVA, IPS panel here) and find it extremely odd that someone would pay soo much more for a meal none the wiser for the difference in quality. Hell you can go thru the drive thru.............fast...........and get a happy meal...........bling...........dont git that kinda stuff at a five star restaurant.....well tarnation!!
Click to expand...

That was a good book!!

Seriously, though, I like your point about 1080 vs 1200. I've looked at both and wondered which I would like better. I think the 1200 it is...
 
conghelach said:
Well things are different since those days and not much better im afraid.
Click to expand...
From my perspective, things have definitely improved. Three years ago, $400 gets you a 20" 1680x1050 TN monitor. Today, $400 lands you a nice 24" 1920x1200 S-PVA monitor. A huge improvement in my book.

Your problem, if I may say so, is that you went for the cheap stuff.
 
You don't happen to be in the Southeast USA do you? If so, I might be willing to take the FW900 off your hands. My CRT recently started to die and I bought a Dell 2209WA to replace it. IPS panels are way better than TNs, but CRTs still do some things better.
 
Mocs123 said:
You don't happen to be in the Southeast USA do you? If so, I might be willing to take the FW900 off your hands. My CRT recently started to die and I bought a Dell 2209WA to replace it. IPS panels are way better than TNs, but CRTs still do some things better.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I live in Michigan.
 
Last edited:
I say wait for the rumored Dell 24" E-IPS's.

I have a bad feeling that they will cost a lot more than the great 2209WAs did, though. :(
 
vafan13 said:
Unfortunately the FW900, as much as I love it, is enormous, weighs 85 pounds and more or less acts like a space heater. It is also, unfortunately, on the road to the grave. Certainly I could pick one up that is on better shape, but I don't know if I really want to commit to years more with one of these hot monsters, as great as the picture is.
Click to expand...

Then you'll probably want to pick up a high quality 24" LCD to replace it. For me LCDs offer improvements in sharpness over CRTs, save space, and give less eyestrain. The main drawback of LCDs has been the input lag. Other than that, they are an overall improvement as long as you get one with a high quality SPVA or IPS panel.
 
Syntax Error said:
I say wait for the rumored Dell 24" E-IPS's.

I have a bad feeling that they will cost a lot more than the great 2209WAs did, though. :(
Click to expand...

The word "rumored" always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.


Seeing as the 2209WA is discontinued, has anyone found a legit 2nd hand source?
 
vafan13 said:
Using large TVs for computers is something I am not interested in.
Click to expand...

Have you considered a 32" HDTV as a monitor (or is that considered too large?)?

Good price
Great picture (LG uses an IPS panel)
Nice size
Plenty of outputs
Not heavy

As a person who owns a 20" CRT, 23" LCD (TN), a 30" LCD (IPS), a 37" LCD HDTV IPS), and 52" LCD HDTV (IPS), I gotta be honest....the 37" is probably my favorite. Not super huge, but definitely big enough to require me to pick my jaw up off the floor while playing Armed Assault 2, COD: WAW, etc..

If you were interested in trying out an HDTV as a monitor, you could always pick one up at Best Buy. If you don't like it, you have 30 days to return it for a refund. No harm no foul.
 
vafan13 said:
The word "rumored" always leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Seeing as the 2209WA is discontinued, has anyone found a legit 2nd hand source?
Click to expand...
Interesting you should say that, since it is also only a rumor that 2209WA is discontinued.
 
chklin said:
Interesting you should say that, since it is also only a rumor that 2209WA is discontinued.
Click to expand...

I believe it is confirmed. Whether it is permanently discontinued or only discontinued for the foreseeable future is a different question.
 
I read the Dell forums and while it may be implied, it does not actually say it is discontinued. All they really say is that LG can't supply enough panels to meet demand, which is why it terminally out of stock. Why they may be making it harder to find while they wait for more stock. But no official discontinued.

It would be funny though if a product became discontinued as a result of being too popular.

Hopefully someone at Dell is looking at the popularity and planning more IPS/sRGB panels to feed this obvious hunger. I would like a 24" 1920x1200 model please. :)
 
I'm looking at the LN40B750 which is probably the best flourescent backlite lcd you will find. Also will make a great monitor (if you sit 4-6 feet from it as i do). If your looking at a Plasma display i've heard the G10 series by panasonic is a steal for the money but as another poster already said he doesn't like the static desktop work on it. That would point me toward the LN40B750 as it is great multipurpose and is 240hz (interpolated frames of course/ for blu-ray movies and tv watching). But it also has great screen uniformity, and great black level performance. http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-ln40b750/4505-6482_7-33490657.html?tag=mncol;lst
 
Snowdog said:
It would be funny though if a product became discontinued as a result of being too popular.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is discontinued. As far as we know, LGE is still making those e-IPS panels, and one way or the other, those panels will end up in LCD monitors into consumers' hands.
 
Snowdog said:
I would like a 24" 1920x1200 model please. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, if a 24", 1920x1200 e-IPS came out I would definitely go for that. :D I have a terrible feeling that if they did, they'd do 1080 and ruin everything.
 
chklin said:
From my perspective, things have definitely improved. Three years ago, $400 gets you a 20" 1680x1050 TN monitor. Today, $400 lands you a nice 24" 1920x1200 S-PVA monitor. A huge improvement in my book.

Your problem, if I may say so, is that you went for the cheap stuff.
Click to expand...
3 years ago 20" TN monitors did NOT cost $400. I paid roughly $250 for a new 1680x1050 LG back in 07 which already was overpriced because it was new. I agree with his post. This whole 1080p is "full HD" nonsense is making the average joe think that it's the best which obviously we the enthusiast, programmer, ect. know there are higher resolutions monitors that are far better. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think NEC is the only company that has so far introduced a non TN 1080p computer monitor out of the possibly hundreds that have already saturated the market.
 
silent hero said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think NEC is the only company that has so far introduced a non TN 1080p computer monitor out of the possibly hundreds that have already saturated the market.
Click to expand...
Samsung released the first C-PVA as a 1080p monitor a few weeks ago, but otherwise you are quite correct.
 
silent hero said:
3 years ago 20" TN monitors did NOT cost $400.
Click to expand...
Yes it did. I still have the sales receipt.

Your Newegg.com order information

Your Sales Order Date is: 3/6/2006 8:59:53 AM
MNTRSCPE|LCD20"8MSDVIM X20G-NagaIII - Retail
Extended Warranty Fee: $0
Subtotal: $389.99
Click to expand...
And Sceptre was the low-cost bottom-of-the-barrel manufacturer.
 
silent hero said:
This whole 1080p is "full HD" nonsense is making the average joe think that it's the best which obviously we the enthusiast, programmer, ect. know there are higher resolutions monitors that are far better.
Click to expand...
I am a conservative when it comes to monitor aspect ratio. I was on a 4:3 monitor until earlier this year, when I moved on to 16:10. (The Sceptre 16:10 monitor I bought three years ago was a gift to a friend.) I generally prefer 16:10 monitors to 16:9 ones.

However, people rarely buy the best; instead they choose what for them is cost effective. Even us the enthusiasts, programmers, etc. do not always buy the best (how many here have own an IBM T221?). It does not matter how good the T221 is; for us it simply is not cost effective.

The recent "full HD" development did not deprive the average joe of his choices. Instead, that development was a great boom to him because, for the first time, he has access to 1080p-capable monitors below the $200 price point. Yes, there are higher resolutions monitors that are far better, but it does not matter to him because he is never going to buy those anyway.

Those of us who care can still pay to get what we want, yes? And even quality products have come down in price, yes? So why the hate?
 
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