* Need the help of some of you "high end" audio end guys!

[magnetik]

I will be interviewing the owner of Sound Mind Audio in Austin, Tx. His website is new but his store has been around for a decade and features some of the highest end, esoteric, gear around. He is a great guy and is as big as an enthusiast as they come. He really knows his stuff!! (even has tutorials on his website) I will probably be interviewing him remotely since I am out of state but was wondering what kind of questions should I ask? I will pick out the best ones from this thread and post the interview with pictures of some of his higher end equipment and shop when it's done.

I was thinking along the lines of some of the things we read in the forum..

- what he thinks of the diy market?
- do cables matter?
- thoughts on headphones?
- what are some ways a starving audiophile can get audiophile sound at a student wage? heh

dunno.. some of you guys are way higher end then me so figured it would be a good place to start.

Thanks!!!!!

 

[JC634]

I'm not a source for questions to ask, but you might want to post over at the AVS forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/.

It seems that this is where the audio enthusiasts hang out.

 

[magnetik]

I'm not a source for questions to ask, but you might want to post over at the AVS forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/.

It seems that this is where the audio enthusiasts hang out.

I know but since this is the forum I moderate.. I wouldn't feel right going over to AVS and posting a thread there when we have a LOT of people on this forum with really high end gear. (just by looking at the post picture stickies)

 

[SockMan!]

Asking about future plans and developments seems to be a good standard question for just about any industry.

 

[magnetik]

Asking about future plans and developments seems to be a good standard question for just about any industry.

great idea!

 

[Nicolaskl]

I'd ask him about some of the ridiculous adjectives on this description of cables on his website:

How do these totally revolutionary, totally different, patent-pending liquid alloy conductors SOUND? Liquid. Never hard, never edgy, never dry. Liquid. Sweet, juicy, tasty (don't drink it, kids!), and delicate, with dynamics, both micro and macro, which will ASTONISH you. Timbral accuracy which is really uncanny. Soundstaging which DEFINES soundstaging....not just out to the edges of the studio space, but with FOCUS, too!

Then I'd ask if it's okay if you send someone over to administer a blind ABX test.

I think we know how he's going to respond on the "do cables matter?" question. The guy sells 4300 dollar interconnects, he's probably NOT gonna say they're a waste of money.

 

[magnetik]

I'd ask him about some of the ridiculous adjectives on this description of cables on his website:



Then I'd ask if it's okay if you send someone over to administer a blind ABX test.

I think we know how he's going to respond on the "do cables matter?" question. The guy sells 4300 dollar interconnects, he's probably NOT gonna say they're a waste of money.

probably not but it would be interesting to get his take "and" do a ABX test. unfortunately I wont be in Austin for a couple months.. maybe I could do it. I am not the kind of person to say it's blindly not going to make a difference. (prob because my high end gear is not really high end compared to others) I definitely would like to try some of this stuff first hand. I wouldn't spend 10k on a set of headphones/amp but I never will rag on someone because they had the money and did. Who am I to say what "they" hear?

 

[phide]

Who am I to say what "they" hear?

I'm no expert on this, but if there's one thing I do know, it's this: something cannot sound 'liquid'. Those who describe audio in such a manner are either completely off the deep end, or are only interested in selling snake oils. Sounds like you've found yourself a bona fide snake oil salesman mag!

Here's a question you might want to ask, though: what high-end cable does he feel is most danceable? Which cables exhibit the best 'swing' and 'pace'.

If you want to ask a more serious question, then maybe something along the lines of whether MP3s or other lossy formats have any place in the audiophile's library (or something to that effect).

 

[Bbq]

Ask him about bose

 

[magnetik]

I'm no expert on this, but if there's one thing I do know, it's this: something cannot sound 'liquid'. Those who describe audio in such a manner are either completely off the deep end, or are only interested in selling snake oils. Sounds like you've found yourself a bona fide snake oil salesman mag!

heh and here I thought when he said liquid.. he was referring to "liquid" in the cables. some of those exotic materials are very expensive.. take look at the Focal Be line..

The conductors are an alloy of Gallium and Indium inside of tubes which are sealed and attached in proprietary fashion to RCA jacks and spade lugs for use in these magnificent sounding cables! The stuff's ACTUALLY LIQUID AT ROOM TEMPERATURES!

good idea!

If you want to ask a more serious question, then maybe something along the lines of whether MP3s or other lossy formats have any place in the audiophile's library (or something to that effect).

 

[magnetik]

Ask him about bose

heh that would be an interesting one.. we should

 

[Stinn]

I'd ask him about some of the ridiculous adjectives on this description of cables on his website:



Then I'd ask if it's okay if you send someone over to administer a blind ABX test.

I think we know how he's going to respond on the "do cables matter?" question. The guy sells 4300 dollar interconnects, he's probably NOT gonna say they're a waste of money.

You think that's bad? I watched some of his videos of youtube where he claims that if you can't hear the difference some magnet makes by waving it over your cd's "you're deaf". Or that maple butcher block is by far the best shelving for components and that rounding the edges of said butcher block will actually SMOOTH OUT THE MOTHERFUCKING SOUND!
Watch for yourself...http://www.youtube.com/user/soundmindaudio
i'm agreeing with the "snake oil salesman" comment.

 

[magnetik]

^^^^^^^
well here's your chance to get their take and ask them directly.

let's keep this objective and not take this thread downhill. I am trying to stay "moderate" I asked if I could do an interview and he agreed. Let's at least show him benefit of the doubt since is willing to open up his store for us and allow us to ask questions.

personally, I think it's just as bad to be make claims that seem outrageous as someone that's made assumptions before ever trying said items. I am sure a lot of people are satisfied with their $3000 Dacs.. are they worth it? dunno.. never had one.

I think butcher blocks make great shelves also. I would round them anyways for aesthetics reasons regardless.

 

[Stinn]

To as objective as possible I would ask him how he thinks rounding the edges on the shelf his amp is sitting on will help smooth out the sound it produces. At the same time ask him how the "Walker Audio Valid Points Tuning Kit" actually works as well. I'd love to know the science of this.

 

[Nicolaskl]

You think that's bad? I watched some of his videos of youtube where he claims that if you can't hear the difference some magnet makes by waving it over your cd's "you're deaf". Or that maple butcher block is by far the best shelving for components and that rounding the edges of said butcher block will actually SMOOTH OUT THE MOTHERFUCKING SOUND!
Watch for yourself...http://www.youtube.com/user/soundmindaudio
i'm agreeing with the "snake oil salesman" comment.

Sweet Jesus, I didn't even see any of that. They went through 8 different kinds of maple butcher block (as a shelving material) before they found the one that sounded right? Are you shitting me?

This guy is either completely delusional or an absolute fraud.

 

[Nicolaskl]

^^^^^^^
well here's your chance to get their take and ask them directly.

let's keep this objective and not take this thread downhill. I am trying to stay "moderate" I asked if I could do an interview and he agreed. Let's at least show him benefit of the doubt since is willing to open up his store for us and allow us to ask questions.

personally, I think it's just as bad to be make claims that seem outrageous as someone that's made assumptions before ever trying said items. I am sure a lot of people are satisfied with their $3000 Dacs.. are they worth it? dunno.. never had one.

I think butcher blocks make great shelves also. I would round them anyways for aesthetics reasons regardless.

No, it's not just as bad. If someone tells you that sticking chicken bones up your ass lowers your cholesterol level are you obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe him until you try it yourself? The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, especially when the claim is completely outrageous, like "rounded edge of shelf = smooth sound."

I understand you're trying to be non-partisan, but your philosophy here results in you having to give everyone the benefit of the doubt about absolutely anything, no matter how ludicrous, until you personally have experienced it and proven it wrong, and that is obviously a ridiculous way to live your life.

 

[dandragonrage]

Ask him if he'll arrange some ABX tests to be done in front of you where you're doing the switching

 

[magnetik]

No, it's not just as bad. If someone tells you that sticking chicken bones up your ass lowers your cholesterol level are you obligated to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe him until you try it yourself? The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, especially when the claim is completely outrageous, like "rounded edge of shelf = smooth sound."

I understand you're trying to be non-partisan, but your philosophy here results in you having to give everyone the benefit of the doubt about absolutely anything, no matter how ludicrous, until you personally have experienced it and proven it wrong, and that is obviously a ridiculous way to live your life.

as I stated.. I am being objective.. I am giving benefit of the doubt on some claims until I hear them for myself. I see nothing wrong with that. Obviously he has had a business for a decade proves there are others that feel the same way. Everyone that comes into his store gets to listen and do their own ABX tests before they plop down cash.

I am not saying to not be skeptical with some claims since obviously large (to me anyways) money is involved.. but since it's my job to be "moderate".. I am trying to be. I admit I am a "starving" audiophile like a lot of us so money is a big important factor... but to others spending that much on liquid gallium and indium cables might not be as important. I am the kind of person that try to read other peoples takes first by looking at reviews but since some of this stuff is so esoteric the best way (most times not even possible) is to listen to it yourself. And you can't say that being able bring your vinyl and listen to your music on a set of 40k focal nova utopias or 80k grand utopias, connected by exotic liquid rca's, with giant monoblocks, isn't a little intriguing for the average joe. and I ain't bringin classical.

 

[magnetik]

Ask him if he'll arrange some ABX tests to be done in front of you where you're doing the switching

I think we should do a test where we take a high quality audio cd encoded into many different lossy and lossless formats.. then see if he can discern which is which.

anyone that knows how to create the high quality rips want to create some small recordings?

 

[Hurdler]

Can you ask who "designed" their website, and picked those stupid colors (I'm referring to the footnote colors)?

Or ask why the descriptions of all the amplifiers have the same retarded description:

Some values are ridiculous. This one's just plain STUPID. HOW CAN A BUDGET SOLID STATE AMP SOUND THIS GOOD, AND BE SO BRILLIANTLY DESIGNED? I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'M GLAD TO HAVE IT HERE!

Just by looking at this guys website I think he's a complete whack-job. He may know his stuff, but his website says anything but knowledgeable professional audio dealer...

On a more serious note, I'm also curious how much of a difference he thinks cables make. On his website he seems to claim that different cables work better in different scenarios. I'd really appreciate to know how he's come to this conclusion, since the signals are pretty much the same, regardless of who makes the components.

 

[phide]

I think we should do a test where we take a high quality audio cd encoded into many different lossy and lossless formats.. then see if he can discern which is which. anyone that knows how to create the high quality rips want to create some small recordings?

I'd actually guess that if you set up a good blind listening test, he'd refuse to do it. I wouldn't want to be in the position of not being able to discern decent AAC from lossless if I were in the business of knowing great sound (though I suppose I am in that position in a way...)

I could provide a few thirty second snippets from a couple genres in LAME 3.97, Nero AAC and perhaps Ogg Vorbis aoTuV b5, all at around 180kbps, with a ~100kbps Shine low anchor if you'd like, but you'd need to determine how you'd want to administer the 'test'.

But, yeah, like I said, I'm pretty damn sure he'd completely reject the idea of doing it entirely. I don't think science really plays much of a role in this guy's life. Hell, maybe he'd lynch you or something if you even asked.

 

[Nicolaskl]

as I stated.. I am being objective.. I am giving benefit of the doubt on some claims until I hear them for myself. I see nothing wrong with that. Obviously he has had a business for a decade proves there are others that feel the same way. Everyone that comes into his store gets to listen and do their own ABX tests before they plop down cash.

No they don't, I guarantee he isn't set up to do ABX testing, it'd be completely counter productive for him. He'd never sell anything.

Actually I can pretty much guarantee he isn't really set up to do any kind of comparison testing on things like speaker wire, even among the stuff he does sell, and definitely with cheaper stuff that he doesn't sell.

 

[magnetik]

man.. you guys like to make a lot of assumptions without letting me even interview the guy. guarantee? see the irony? heh

I am going to bring up some of these questions for sure.. but I am going to be objective.. this going to be an interview... not jerry springer. Take from his answers what you wish.

I am confused.. you make it seem like it's hard to setup an ABX test. How hard is it to setup a ABX test when you have all the equipment for comparison in front of you? doesn't seem that hard to me but maybe I am missing something. I think for people spending that much money on audio.. there HAS to be some sort of comparison testing in store. You dont' buy a car without a test drive or driving the competition. I believe they will even demo in your own living room. So.. I don't know what he would gain by not allowing testing. Asking him the time to go through all his cables and do a abx test might be a little presumptuous on my part. I might just bring a set of diy star quad interconnects with me anyways.

 

[Sixthsense]

• How will THX Media Director affect the ISF/HAA community?
• Folded Horn subs vs front loaded; ported and sealed
• The future of dual voice coil subs in a home theatre enviroment
• bassmaxx in a home theatre enviroment

 

[Nicolaskl]

man.. you guys like to make a lot of assumptions without letting me even interview the guy. guarantee? see the irony? heh

I am going to bring up some of these questions for sure.. but I am going to be objective.. this going to be an interview... not jerry springer. Take from his answers what you wish.

I am confused.. you make it seem like it's hard to setup an ABX test. How hard is it to setup a ABX test when you have all the equipment for comparison in front of you? doesn't seem that hard to me but maybe I am missing something. I think for people spending that much money on audio.. there HAS to be some sort of comparison testing in store. You dont' buy a car without a test drive or driving the competition. I believe they will even demo in your own living room. So.. I don't know what he would gain by not allowing testing. Asking him the time to go through all his cables and do a abx test might be a little presumptuous on my part. I might just bring a set of diy star quad interconnects with me anyways.

I've never seen or heard about a high end audio store that was set up for ABX testing of even some of their products, let alone all of them. I'm sure some exist, but if you think it's common then you're mistaken.

Setting up a properly double blind ABX test IS hard. It's VERY hard, depending on what exactly you're trying to test. Even setting up a single blind ABX test is hard. In some cases it's practically impossible. So I'm lead to believe that you don't really know what an ABX test really is. Describe to me how you'd easily set up a double blind (or single blind, for that matter) ABX test for speaker wire.

A high end audio store set up for ABX testing is basically unheard of, yet you assume that he is set up for it by default. Rounding the edge of a shelf having a significant influence on sound is patently ridiculous, yet you're willing to believe it's true. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem like you're being objective, it seems like you're being naive.

 

[magnetik]

I've never seen or heard about a high end audio store that was set up for ABX testing of even some of their products, let alone all of them. I'm sure some exist, but if you think it's common then you're mistaken.

Setting up a properly double blind ABX test IS hard. It's VERY hard, depending on what exactly you're trying to test. Even setting up a single blind ABX test is hard. In some cases it's practically impossible. So I'm lead to believe that you don't really know what an ABX test really is. Describe to me how you'd easily set up a double blind (or single blind, for that matter) ABX test for speaker wire.

A high end audio store set up for ABX testing is basically unheard of, yet you assume that he is set up for it by default. Rounding the edge of a shelf having a significant influence on sound is patently ridiculous, yet you're willing to believe it's true. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem like you're being objective, it seems like you're being naive.

and blindly assuming that it doesn't help is being more objective?

also please explain. I'm all ears. (no pun intended) give me "your" reasons why giving an ABX test on a few sets of speaker cables or interconnects is going to be "VERY" hard. (and please don't point me to the hydrogenaudio thread) It may be time consuming but it's not rocket science. seriously.

 

[phide]

Rounding the edge of a shelf having a significant influence on sound is patently ridiculous, yet you're willing to believe it's true. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem like you're being objective, it seems like you're being naive.

Objectivism is the opposite of heading into a given situation with preconceived notions, which is exactly what he's doing.

The problem is that our minds can be influenced by the very thought that we can or can not be influenced depending upon how we approach a situation. It certainly isn't difficult to convince yourself that rounding maple makes speakers 'sound better' -- it's about as difficult as convincing yourself that it cannot make a difference -- but the trick is actually formulating a rigid scientific test that determines whether or not you can discern between rounded and non-rounded when you're completely blind toward any preferences.

Now, that says nothing about believing that such a thing can actually have a audible effect. To me, that speaks of an intensely severe mental illness (like that kid who came here not long ago who covered his interconnects with toilet paper rolls and electrical tape, and was convinced that different types of rolls yielded a different sound), but that's just my take. There are 'audiophiles' who live their lives trapped within a paradoxical fabricated wonderland they've constructed in their minds and are insistent that their fabrications are reality, and I guess this guy's one of them, but you still can't be too quick to deny all possibilities, however absurd they might sound to us folk still grounded in some sort of reality.

Now, if mag heads over there, discovers that these different blocks make a difference (as he perceives it) and runs around telling people that it does without actually proving it, then it's appropriate for us to punch him in the face -- not before

 

[magnetik]

Objectivism is the opposite of heading into a given situation with preconceived notions, which is exactly what he's doing.

The problem is that our minds can be influenced by the very thought that we can or can not be influenced depending upon how we approach a situation. It certainly isn't difficult to convince yourself that rounding maple makes speakers 'sound better' -- it's about as difficult as convincing yourself that it cannot make a difference -- but the trick is actually formulating a rigid scientific test that determines whether or not you can discern between rounded and non-rounded when you're completely blind toward any preferences.

Now, that says nothing about believing that such a thing can actually have a audible effect. To me, that speaks of an intensely severe mental illness (like that kid who came here not long ago who covered his interconnects with toilet paper rolls and electrical tape, and was convinced that different types of rolls yielded a different sound), but that's just my take. There are 'audiophiles' who live their lives trapped within a paradoxical fabricated wonderland they've constructed in their minds and are insistent that their fabrications are reality, and I guess this guy's one of them, but you still can't be too quick to deny all possibilities, however absurd they might sound to us folk still grounded in some sort of reality.

Now, if mag heads over there, discovers that these different blocks make a difference (as he perceives it) and runs around telling people that it does without actually proving it, then it's appropriate for us to punch him in the face -- not before

hehe.. funny thing about it.. is that I "don't" think they would make a difference... I really don't see how they could.. would like to try those liquid interconnects though.

 

[File]

heh and here I thought when he said liquid.. he was referring to "liquid" in the cables. some of those exotic materials are very expensive.. take look at the Focal Be line..



good idea!

Indium is liquid at (warm) room temperature.

 

[Pinipig523]

My questions towards him would include:

- Where do you see the audio industry going in the next 10-20 years? Do you see a new staple of media used? Will vinyl still be around?
- When do you think the golden age of audio is/was/will be? Was it in the 70s? Is it today? Is it tomorrow?
- What's the most important component (i.e. speakers, source, amp)?
- How should one divide the budget when building a system?
- What is the best speaker/set up he's ever heard?

Lots more questions.... I can go on forever.

 

[dandragonrage]

- What's the most important component (i.e. speakers, source, amp)?

I'm not him, but I'll answer this one for you: speakers and room are tied for #1 most important

 

[Nicolaskl]

and blindly assuming that it doesn't help is being more objective?

No, it's being less naive. If you give everyone in the audio industry the benefit of the doubt you're going to end up wasting a lot of time and a lot of money.

also please explain. I'm all ears. (no pun intended) give me "your" reasons why giving an ABX test on a few sets of speaker cables or interconnects is going to be "VERY" hard. (and please don't point me to the hydrogenaudio thread) It may be time consuming but it's not rocket science. seriously.

How are you going to set up a double blind ABX test of speaker cables? It's practically impossible. You'd have to have some kind of custom designed mechanical apparatus that physically pulled one kind of speaker cable out of the speaker (and amp) and inserted the other kind. And you'd have to have something that randomized which one was X.

You can't just have two sets of identical speakers and A/B back and forth between them, the different positioning is more likely to alter the sound than a speaker cable. And that wouldn't be double blind anyway.

Even single blind is going to be a pain in the ass and time consuming, and you won't be able to switch back forth which would result in a MUCH higher failure rate. Listening to one cable for a few minutes, then tottering off while they spend 3 minutes changing then, then listening to another, then going to the bathroom while they change it again, then listening for another few minutes? Doing it that way most people would fail an ABX test comparing stuff that actually IS significantly different. It wouldn't be a valid test.

So explain how you're going to easily set up a double blind ABX test of two different kinds of speaker wires (or even a single blind that allows you to switch back and forth quickly, hell even a NON blind that allows you to switch back and forth at will). I'm all ears.

 

[dandragonrage]

Okay, this is a super easy one. You have a thick wire of just a few inches coming from the amp to a distribution block that will split it into two cables. The cables run to a switch box which then connects via a thick wire of just a few inches to the speaker. One person connects this up, covers up which cable is which and labels them A and B on the switchbox. Then you get another person who will give the test. He'll play A and B, and then pick which one he will play as X and writes it down in a place that the test takers can not see.

Some people will make a stupid claim about the test setup screwing up the sound, but even if you're one that believes in audible differences in the cables, this setup would still sound different between the cables, even if you think the overall quality is degraded.

An ABX test with rounded shelves and squared shelves is almost impossible, though.

 

[Stinn]

An ABX test with rounded shelves and squared shelves is almost impossible, though.

A double blind ABX test would nearly be yes. But a simple ABX with a couple curtains would be possible.

 

[Retronym]

Ask for an exclusive [H] DISCOUNT

 

[Nicolaskl]

Okay, this is a super easy one. You have a thick wire of just a few inches coming from the amp to a distribution block that will split it into two cables. The cables run to a switch box which then connects via a thick wire of just a few inches to the speaker. One person connects this up, covers up which cable is which and labels them A and B on the switchbox. Then you get another person who will give the test. He'll play A and B, and then pick which one he will play as X and writes it down in a place that the test takers can not see.

Some people will make a stupid claim about the test setup screwing up the sound, but even if you're one that believes in audible differences in the cables, this setup would still sound different between the cables, even if you think the overall quality is degraded.

An ABX test with rounded shelves and squared shelves is almost impossible, though.

You're introducing a foreign apparatus into the signal path, it's not a valid test. ANY $3000 dollar cable lover is going to claim that the test is distorted, and they're probably right to do so. Just because you're introducing the same obstruction into both signal paths doesn't automatically mean it's going to have the exact same impact on both signal paths. And even if the impact is exactly the same it could still be significant enough that the gains/changes in SQ from the wires themselves are completely overwhelmed.

 

[dandragonrage]

You're introducing a foreign apparatus into the signal path, it's not a valid test.

Wrong. If the speakers change the sound by themselves, they will change the sound the same way with the switching setup. You can try to claim that the switching setup will degrade sound quality, but it will do it equally for any cable hooked up, so it's a valid test.

 

[Nicolaskl]

Wrong. If the speakers (sic) change the sound by themselves, they will change the sound the same way with the switching setup.

You don't know that, it depends WHY the wires change the sound.

You can try to claim that the switching setup will degrade sound quality, but it will do it equally for any cable hooked up, so it's a valid test.

No, it's not. What if a cable achieves its sonic qualities by a precise balance of inductance, resistance and capacitance, all of which goes out the window the second you introduce a foreign body into the signal path? What if the sonic differences in speaker wire are very subtle but the difference made by the testing apparatus is relatively severe, drowning out the differences in speaker wire?

You can't stick something else into the signal path and then pretend it isn't there, it's bad testing methodology and it's just bad science.

It's possible that your device wouldn't impact the sound, but you cant assume that it wouldn't impact the sound. Anyone that questioned the validity of your test would be justified in doing so, it would lose its credibility.

 

[phide]

It's possible that your device wouldn't impact the sound, but you cant assume that it wouldn't impact the sound. Anyone that questioned the validity of your test would be justified in doing so, it would lose its credibility.

Yet this is typically how such tests are done anyway. There is no better method available that's still realistic.

I think the validity of such a test is based primarily on the results: either the test is conclusive in some way or it isn't. Not all studies must achieve absolute, 100% conclusiveness to be valid or meaningful.

What if a cable achieves its sonic qualities by a precise balance of inductance, resistance and capacitance, all of which goes out the window the second you introduce a foreign body into the signal path?

The complexity of the signal path is already immense. If such an interconnect's qualities are reliant on a precise balance of all of these attributes, then the interconnect may have already lost its qualities (been 'compromised') by the time it's actually connected to some component. If we're talking about a speaker cable, how much theoretical 'quality' does one lose once the banana connector is actually inserted into a terminal?

 

[dandragonrage]

No, it's not. What if a cable achieves its sonic qualities by a precise balance of inductance, resistance and capacitance, all of which goes out the window the second you introduce a foreign body into the signal path?

They'll still be different between the different cables. Adding more things to the signal path does not just make any differences in the cables go away (though the differences are ultimately too small to hear anyway, but I'm just playing along with you on that one)