Need help with my first quote on a networking overhaul

J

jmroberts70

2[H]4U
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Oct 15, 2002
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I'm no stranger to supporting business networks. I've been doing it on military bases, hospitals, phone company central offices, and small commercial business. I've seen my fair share of disasters:

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Well I've finally run into a local business that has 2 offices that are in desperate need of a network overhaul. They're going to be having a T1 installed as well as a new VOIP PBX system. Before they do, I'm going to submit a proposal to rehab the network cabling. Here is a small sample of the current condition:

bad-network-02.jpg

--This is their main office. The data lines are on the left and the phone lines on the right. I am proposing to re-cable these two racks with slack management and properly label everything. In addition, I'm going to add a rack-mounted UPS to support this equipment since their current solution is just a consumer-grade box on the floor.

bad-network-03.jpg

--This is their satellite office. I'm going to propose adding a network cabinet to the wall, a UPS, and rehab the wiring.

I've always wanted to do a project like this but most offices aren't that worried about it. These guys truly want to do things right for a change but I just don't know what sort of pitfalls lay ahead of me.

What I'm hoping to achieve is to combine the VOIP PBX cabling ad the data lines. I know that most systems will do this and provide 100MB Ethernet, a VOIP connection, and POE over a single network drop so I may be able to get away with cutting their cabling spaghetti in half but I have to do some testing with the new system first.

So what are your thoughts, concerns, and warnings for me? How long of a job do you think this will take to pull off?
 
T1 for that size network? LOL. No. Not even close. Personally I'd turn the entire job down if they weren't willing to get the right connection, because I wouldn't want to have to deal with either being blamed for things being horribly slow, nor would I want to have to keep trying to fix a problem that can only be fixed by buying the right kind of connection. Or is the T1 just for the phones?

My work had a network not that much bigger looking when I got here, and a T1, and it was awful. Couldn't download anything or update anything at all during the day, and we do file transfers and sometimes remote desktop between locations... We went to multiple bonded T1s that made the problem a lot less bad, but was still not good enough.
 
I'm not in the networking business, however, when going into a potentially messy job, I think it is quite difficult to do a fixed cost quote. You may want to consider proposing an hourly rate and provide an estimated range of hours that it will take to do the job (and you can break that down by task at a high level).
 
They're getting fiber to their main building and a T1 to replace the spotty Timewarner connection at their satellite office. It's really the best they can do considering the very remote location of their smaller office. I'm sure it will suffice.
 
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I would feel so lost and subject to sitting in the closet and crying if I had to walk into something like this.
 
David_Schroth said:
I'm not in the networking business, however, when going into a potentially messy job, I think it is quite difficult to do a fixed cost quote. You may want to consider proposing an hourly rate and provide an estimated range of hours that it will take to do the job (and you can break that down by task at a high level).
Click to expand...

Well I'm in the contracting business and I'm leaning more towards a fixed-cost quote with a few clauses in the agreement if further scope of work appears. I think my potential for profit with less paperwork may be higher and I can still re-negotiate if the scope of work changes or expands. I also think I work better when there's a paycheck waiting for me when I'm done and not just on an hourly basis...
 
jmroberts70 said:
Well I'm in the contracting business and I'm leaning more towards a fixed-cost quote with a few clauses in the agreement if further scope of work appears. I think my potential for profit with less paperwork may be higher and I can still re-negotiate if the scope of work changes or expands. I also think I work better when there's a paycheck waiting for me when I'm done and not just on an hourly basis...
Click to expand...

I'm in the contracting business as well and I much prefer fixed fee work for the same reasons that you do, however, for my sticky bids, I have to place a lot more reliance on the client for me to hit my expected level of effort. For this job, I can see how you will rely upon your skills for the most part which should take variability out of the bid. I agree controlling scope is the way to go for fixed fee stuff, however, if you have to keep going back to them time after time for a few more bucks for something else, they will get annoyed with you far more than the hourly rate approach.
 
Hell that's a masterfully crafted setup compared to all the worst pics news posts we've seen here.
 
^^ yes, that's really not bad at all. I've had to clean up much, much worse.
 
Ok well tell me about it!! What are the steps you would take after now that you have a few of these jobs under your belt?
 
Schedule downtime, note ports, undo some cable organizers and move the cables.. what's so hard about cleaning up a mess?

Have a tone tester handy just in case you drop a line or forget to label.

Also if possible use shorter patch to do it right. it looks like they patched a 2 foot distance with 6 foot cables.
 
Well if my years of IT contracting has taught me anything it's that thinking something I've never actually done is simple and easy, it's always been more than that! If all I need to worry about is toning our a few lines, I think I'll have a miracle on my hands!!
 
My favorite switch is the Linksys hanging off the rack. Classic.

Seeing that is all un-managed switches, I'm guessing one (v)lan. Now imagine doing the same cleanup on a Cisco 6509 with over 100 defined vlans. Getting all the ports & cables right is critical.

I'd take that job in a heartbeat.
 
I like to think I specialize in cleaning other peoples' messes but I'd probably run away from that one.
Or I'd kill it with fire.
 
Well, as an update, I've put in a bid of $3,200 for the project. I'm going to bring in a licensed electrician to put a dedicated circuit in for the equipment, a wall-mounted rack cabinet, 1500VA UPS, and T1 line. I'm going to abandon the data lines since the VOIP phone lines also pass 100MB Ethernet connectivity so there's no need for the extra network drops. What do you guys think?
 
jmroberts70 said:
Well, as an update, I've put in a bid of $3,200 for the project. I'm going to bring in a licensed electrician to put a dedicated circuit in for the equipment, a wall-mounted rack cabinet, 1500VA UPS, and T1 line. I'm going to abandon the data lines since the VOIP phone lines also pass 100MB Ethernet connectivity so there's no need for the extra network drops. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "abandon the data lines"? If they already have the cables, switches and structured cabling to the desks, you might as well use them. Give the option of 2 data ports if it exists (unless the second line is sub-par??).
 
This is their current "data" network...
bad-network-04.jpg

--It's a mess and I'd rather just move the patch panel into the cabinet I'm installing and just get rid of the "pile 'o switches" currently running. BTW, there's really only about 2 machines using it...

This is their current "VOIP phone" network (just to the left of the photo above)...
bad-network-05.jpg

--I plan on passing any needed data connections through their VOIP phones (which I already tested to make sure it's configured properly to pull that off). About 80% of the workstations in this office are wireless anyways so just having a single managed switch running in the new cabinet will drastically simplify things.
 
Needs more 8 port consumer grade unmanaged switches on milk crates.

That's the mark of a true professional!
 
Those switches can run for years just fine, if you're not doing vlans and fancy stuff those should do the work. You can connect two switches just fine and the uplink wont be saturated at all, at least for VoIP-traffic.
For the sat-office a cabinet seems pretty overkill, just do decent cabling/routing, marking and it'll be fine.
//Danne
 
diizzy said:
...You can connect two switches just fine and the uplink wont be saturated at all, at least for VoIP-traffic....
//Danne
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VoIP traffic needs QoS in most situations (all?). I'd recommend replacing this all with a managed switch, even if its a little "Cisco Small Business" managed switch. Get QoS turned on and setup a voice VLAN separate of the data.
 
No, VoIP doesn't need QoS at all on a low bandwidth network let alone separated physically. As I said, if he only runs VoIP on one switch or uplink there are no issues at all unless you're going well above 200+ lines.
//Danne
 
jmroberts70 said:
They're getting fiber to their main building and a T1 to replace the spotty Timewarner connection at their satellite office. It's really the best they can do considering the very remote location of their smaller office. I'm sure it will suffice.
Click to expand...

How many people are in the remote office? T1 is 1.5Mb/s, and if they are using voip, that's ~80Kb/s per line. So that will only support like 5-10 people and will not be a great experience for them.


diizzy said:
No, VoIP doesn't need QoS at all on a low bandwidth network let alone separated physically. As I said, if he only runs VoIP on one switch or uplink there are no issues at all unless you're going well above 200+ lines.
//Danne
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If there is any other traffic on that T1 line besides voip he will absolutely need QOS. 1 download will wipe out that whole T1 line, and everyones call quality will go to shit. Now if they were keeping the TWC cable line and using that for web traffic, and T1 for VOIP only, then they wouldn't need QOS.
 
Please note that we're talking about QoS on the internal network, not external connection (WAN) so you're wrong and you can use G.722.2 or G.729 which have lower bandwidth.
//Danne
 
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diizzy, I'm not sure I can subscribe to that way of thinking either. On a small flat single switch network assuming the endpoints are patched through the phones, the phones can usually manage QoS well enough. But with anything larger than that, do QoS and vLAN isolation just to ensure no issues. Otherwise, it quickly becomes another "cheapest/quickest/shoestring" project that's never completed (or documented) properly. I make a good living cleaning up after projects/installs like that... In the OP's case, following that advice is a waste of his clients' money as the job will have to be checked over by his replacement.

Side note, Who the hell uses G729 when they don't have to?!
 
Like I said, if bandwidth is an issue but G722.2 will cut it in half or ever more depending on profile which probably is enough.
//Danne
 
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Nate7311 said:
Side note, Who the hell uses G729 when they don't have to?!
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Exactly.

VoIP vendors claim:
G.711 - Toll quality
G.729 - Cell quality

Real life:
G.711 - Cell quality
G.729 - An abomination

I've never heard better call quality than on an old Avaya/Lucent 8410D digital phone.
 
For that kind of mess, quote $200-250 per drop, pull new cat6, new patch panels, switches etc. Not worth fighting someone else's mess and poor installation Even if you replaced the switches and cleaned up the patch cable side, you'll still get the finger pointed at you for any PC that won't bring up a gigabit link, crc errors, due to improper cable specs, punching, and installation (laying over ballasts, etc.)

Ive walked into many jobs in this shape or worse and this is the best way to approach it.
 
diizzy said:
Please note that we're talking about QoS on the internal network, not external connection (WAN) so you're wrong and you can use G.722.2 or G.729 which have lower bandwidth.
//Danne
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It's needed on both.

It's not about having a giant back plane on your switch, or having 10/100/1000 at every port. It's about prioritization.

I can run a phone system with many active calls on a single 10 meg link, and I can run a phone system with the same amount of calls on a gigabit link. Either way, without QoS you will run into the same problems on both. It's about making sure the RTP stream/bearer audio gets to the phones in the right order and ahead of all other traffic. Essentially, low latency is more important than high bandwidth.

I install these systems into everything from little offices up to multi tower hospitals. I have yet to run across anyone in my industry who would think QoS is unnecessary at any size.

I will concede, smaller systems (under 10 phones) will probably experience very few issues, but if you log it, you will most likely still see dropped packets, jitter and latency.
 
I'm actually not sure what sort of connection is being installed from the telco contractor but I'm sure it's of a T1 class of reliability -but probably a bit faster than the usual 1.5MB speed. The office really has maybe a dozen desks to service so it's a pretty small operation but the Internet connection seems to drop about once a week (which will also down the phones since they're running through to the main office about 15 miles away). So the telco contractor is going to be putting in some direct links as well as a commercial-grade Internet connection for the office. I'm just trying to clean up this mess before they get here and install their own equipment. I want some power protection and a clean / well-labeled network to work with. Frankly, I like the idea of replacing the entire cabling since I really don't know the quality of the work that preceded me. It may be worth it to do...
 
@ randyc
Uhm... QoS does not guarantee that packets comes in the right other (different layer and I assume we're talking about 802.1p), just that X packets gets passed before Y packets _if_ there's a congestion. Feel free to explain what QoS will bring to the table if you have lets say 16 phones on a 100mbit switch which wont ever be congested. Again, this discussion is regarding the internal network nothing else.
//Danne
 
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When I can talk the customer into it put the phone system on a totally different network with a up link through preferably a router to the main switch pack.
No qos needed because all there is on those switches is phones.
There have been several occasions when I went back and redid it that way because their phone people insisted it wasn't needed but it was.

Now if you doing hosted voip over the internet that is a totally different dog and you need qos and a wing and a prayer to make it work well all the time no matter how much bandwidth you have.
 
stormy1 said:
Now if you doing hosted voip over the internet that is a totally different dog and you need qos and a wing and a prayer to make it work well all the time no matter how much bandwidth you have.
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Yeah, this whole cloud craze is going to bite everyone in the ass. I can understand some things, like Office365, but those hosted VoIP providers? Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. (Easter pun intended)
 
diizzy said:
Those switches can run for years just fine, if you're not doing vlans and fancy stuff those should do the work. You can connect two switches just fine and the uplink wont be saturated at all, at least for VoIP-traffic.
For the sat-office a cabinet seems pretty overkill, just do decent cabling/routing, marking and it'll be fine.
//Danne
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They "can run fine", but usually don't. When you can grab a HP managed gigabit switch with lifetime next-day warranty for under $500, there's no excuse not to IMO. Even something simple like loop detection can save hours of problems and troubleshooting, especially in a rats nets like that.
 
@ Innocence
Sigh, we're still on QoS... Yes, on-site-replacement/management may be another issue but as stormy1 mentioned above it will do fine. Anything managed by Zyxel, HP etc works fine that's just a matter of taste really... Doing loops in small networks is "hard" if you a clue. You can even get another gbit switch unmanaged if you're worried 'bout reliability but the old Netgear switches in the pics are sold ones in my experience and if they die its very easy to spot.
//Danne
 
**UPDATE**

My proposal was accepted. Now I have to write my first installation contract (overnight). I'm going to request a 50% deposit of the $3,200 quote to start ordering parts. I do plan on pulling each network drop in the office and re-doing them so I can stand by my work. It's a relatively small office so it's not a big deal. I'm going to sub-contract an electrician friend of mine to put in a dedicated circuit for the UPS, install new backboard, wall-mounted rack cabinet, UPS, and a WAP (which is currently running from the consumer-grade router seen in the photos). Do any of you have any suggestions for a good contract template or good clauses to include in your contracts?

Thanks everyone!!
 
jmroberts70 said:
**UPDATE**
Do any of you have any suggestions for a good contract template or good clauses to include in your contracts?

Thanks everyone!!
Click to expand...

My standard terms are 4 pages long...

TL;DR version:

- Stuff about payment terms, late fees, not working when you're owed work, etc
- Intellectual property assignment and use
- Email isn't secure, mkay?
- General liability indemnification
- Venue for disputes and governing law
- Termination conditions/who pays/owes what
- Contract supersedes all other understandings/agreements/discussions
- Warranty (and/or lack thereof)
- Who pays attorney costs when suing each other
- Requirement for notice
- Failure to act isn't a waiver for other shenanigans
- Total liability shalt not exceed total fees for the gig
- Capslock paragraph that says contracts are serious business
 
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