Need help fidning the best monitor for my money

Discussion in 'Displays' started by U53r, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    What brightness do you have that set at? Did you calibrate it at all?

    The bleed issue is definitely a reason for a return, if it bothers you, but I'm wondering if you can get it to look at least a little bit better with some setting changes.
     
  2. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    I put the brightness down to 95%, I found any lower and the monitor lost its 'pop' and became un-apealing, I tried it with and without the "magic color" feature, doesnt make any difference to the contrast.

    I dont have a calibration tool and cant seem to find any color profiles to download for it so kinda out of luck there.

    But I think its just a case of alot of light gest through the pixels when they are black, no matter what you do it wont make it any less except for turning the brightness down but that kinda removes any point of having a bright monitor which I need with my eyes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  3. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ah... well, 95% is way too bright for most people. That could explain some of the insane bleed + washed out look. It may also lose a little contrast when you lower the brightness, but most people can't use it at full blast brightness all the time.

    All I can suggest is checking out one of the TNs or maybe the Samsung VA I mentioned, at the place you got it, if you have to do an exchange. Or perhaps they will simply give you all of your money back.
     
  4. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Well the way I see it is 100% is what they were intended to be used at otherwise they wouldnt go that bright, I dont get why they cant seal up the panels properly to stop the light bleed from comming through, I mean we've had LCD's for over a decade, its not rocket science, heck rocket science isnt rocket science anymore, especially one costing $500 - there really is no excuse.

    As for loosing contrast... this thing doesnt have enough contrast to spare lol its running of fumes as it is.

    Anyone wanna open a company that makes products right? I've yet to find one these days.
     
  5. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    I understand why you need to use a monitor that bright, but for the average person, they really shouldn't. It'd just add to eye strain.

    One reason they make them so super bright is so they look good in stores -- with fluorescent lights all over, they crank up the monitors so they stand out. It also serves a purpose longterm, as backlights do fade over the years. So if it's superbright when new, at 5+ years it may still have some life left in it.

    Unfortunately backlight bleed is somewhat common in many IPS models. It's just that the Samsung PLS (especially at 24") is notorious for it. If you want a monitor with good quality control nowadays, you'd probably need to look at a professional model (Eizo) and they aren't even perfect either. But Eizos are very expensive. Many here just play the 'buy/return/replace' game, until they get one without flaws.
     
  6. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Use pricebat and shopbot.ca to find that Samsung 650, Amazon has the 850D for 406$ and the best return policy. The BenQ's AG is basically the same as the grainy IPS and the color presets aren't very good. Canada Computers sucks, use Memory Express has a 7 day return policy and 30 day easy exchange policy. Amazon is the best but they don't carry very many monitors, NCIX is fine too if you buy their 30 day policy and both NCIX and Memory express price match.

    Update: If you are connecting the Samsung to the hdmi port with an hdmi-dvi cord on your gpu with a nvidia card you will get terrible black levels. Using >50% brightness on pretty much any non VA panel will yield nothing but obvious screen uniformity and high black level issues. When turning down the brightness initially things will look dull because your eyes are used to the brightness, turn the brightness down and go do something else for a while.

    Monitors are set to 100% brightness by default so they impress people when set up in stores since most are usually really bright.

    I think Computer Monitor Info was using their non-contact meter for their first bunch of reviews which is why their contrast #'s are so low
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  7. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    @NCX The OP has a vision problem, hence why he kept it so bright.

    He can exchange the 850 for the 650 at Canada Computers, assuming they still have it in stock. It was listed on sale for $200.

    For his needs, perhaps a VA may be best, since he can crank up the brightness and still get acceptable blacks. I am unsure how much the gamma shift will affect him though, since he also sits very close to the monitor.
     
  8. conghelach

    conghelach Gawd

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    HP has a z24w 16:10 24 inch monitor, its high quality and 400 bucks.

    My suggestion, save up and buy a good 16:10 24 inch monitor or a 27 inch 1440 monitor, well worth a few meals of ramen noodles for the 16:10 experience and the HP has a good ips panel.

    102hz is meaningless dont buy a monitor solely for that feature.
     
  9. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    NCX,

    Im connecting the monitor DVI to DVI, not HDMI to DVI, also I had a Samsung 2343BWX (the one that just died) i kept it at 100% brigness and it did not have anywhere near the light leaks or weak black levels like this one does.

    The reason I went with CC is because I can just go to the store, I hate having to ship back returns its a huge pain and thats why I rarely buy anything online, plus paying the return shipping is also just a waste.

    I checked out the specs for the 650 buts its only got a 250cdm2 brightness and a poor response time so its not really ideal.

    Namelessme, I cant seem to find a nice 16:10 VA screen that is acceptable for gaming, any suggestions?

    congelach, I at $500 I thought it was a good monitor, I mean the prices on some of these are nuts you can get a 60" tv for the price of some of these.
     
  10. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    The only 16:10 VAs I am aware of are old S-PVAs. And they don't make ideal gaming monitors, nor are especially great with text (due to pixel structure + cleartype). They are also hardly used by any manufacturers anymore.

    I am unsure if the Samsung 650 would be suitable for gaming or not, as some of them have been reported to have 4ms times, while other 8ms. Not that it necessarily matters, as those numbers quite often are meaningless anyway. Maybe check some user threads here, and Prad reviews, to see if it's acceptable for any gaming or not.

    VAs would give you a benefit by the fact you could blast them, yet still get nice blacks. There is the 'viewing cone' issue, mentioned here in nice detail, in the Dell S series thread -- which may or may not be a problem for you.

    If VAs are out, and apparently IPS models are too (although I would say to still consider the 27" 1080ps), then it's a TN. Some of the Samsung TNs are considered decent, but I am not the person to recommend any specific one.
     
  11. Liquid_Static

    Liquid_Static Limp Gawd

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    Dell's Ultrasharp line is always amazing...
     
  12. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Yea I'm just gonna return it, now to pick out another monitor, definitely wanna stick to 16:10 because I really like it, dont know why there arent more 16:10 displays, and I can afford to pay what I paid for this one so $400.
     
  13. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    I agree it is a shame there aren't more 16:10 displays. But I guess it does narrow down your choices, so it's easier to rule out some things ... AMVA is out then. And most IPS models are out, as the majority have heavy AG coatings.

    So it's either a 16:10 TN, a Dell 2413 (maybe has a light coating, but it's $500ish), the new NEC 24" 16:10 IPS just released (rumored to have a light coating) or... hmm... guess that's about it. And it's doubtful the Dell would be good for gaming, since it's geared towards graphics professionals.
     
  14. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Hmm well the 2413 is about $600 here and seems very dificult to find, the new NEC EA244WMi looks promising though, and its backlit so much less light bleed then this edge lit samsung, wish I could find some reviews on it
     
  15. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    The NEC EA244WMi is very new, so it may still be a little while before proper reviews go up. NEC generally has decent quality, so I wouldn't expect it to be as bleedy as the Samsung you just tried.

    I think one problem you may run into is the fact you use the monitor so bright. IPS has never been known for its good black levels, and running at close to 100% brightness will result in rather poor blacks + magnify any backlight/bleed issues. If the build quality is good enough, you can maybe get around bleeding, but just don't expect super dark blacks with any IPS. Even at normal brightness, the best IPS can do is maybe reach S-PVA levels, and only with certain models.

    For now, maybe pick out a decent TN you'd like, and wait for an NEC review, assuming you can wait a little while. That way, at least you have a backup choice in case the NEC stinks ... nobody knows yet for certain even how the AG coating will be.

    Your only other option for a 24" 16:10 IPS without heavy AG coating are older used models, and that can be risky. And those models won't be gaming oriented either.
     
  16. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    The thing is I really like the bright vivid color of the ips/pls panels and the viewing angles on the TNs are a bit restrictive, seen a couple at the store when I bought the samsung and wasnt super impressed with em.

    I've turned the brightness down to 85% and it hasnt really made any difference in the light bleed, I dont expect perfect blacks but I hate always having thos grey haze over anything dark, watching video can be really bad if theres alot of dark scenes, it all just looks hazed over with a grey sheen.

    Also, I cant afford to but more then one monitor and I really dont feel like taking monitors back and forth and fighting with stores to get a refund, the next one I get needs to be 'the one'.

    I do have one question though, before you'd mentioned that ips panels suffer from something called gamma shift, what exactly is gamma shift?
     
  17. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    No need to convince me regarding angle problems and TNs, but I assumed you were okay with that based on your earlier posts. Although I guess after seeing an IPS, you realize the difference a bit better.

    The 'grey haze' thing is a problem with IPS, if watching in a dark room. You simply won't get super dark blacks regardless of what IPS you choose. But... it really shouldn't be much worse than a TN, assuming there is no bleed and you get a decent one. For movie watching, an AMVA would be best, especially if watching from a distance.

    The flaws with IPS, besides black levels, is IPS glow. You should be able to see it on your Samsung there, assuming you still have it. If you look off angle a bit, you should see a white glow on the sides/corners. Some of that will be bleed, but if you move your head and the white glow changes/goes away, that is IPS glow. Almost all current IPS and PLS models have it to some degree. It bothers some people, yet others are fine with it.

    As for gamma shift, that is a change in gamma (or colors) based on viewing angles. All monitors have it, not just IPS. It's actually less prevalent in IPS than any other panel type. For TNs, it primarily affects vertical angles -- IPS > VA > TN. If you didn't mind it with a TN, you won't mind it with an IPS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  18. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    So do you think the NEC will be overall a better monitor then the Samsung? The samsung uses PLS which from what I've read is basically a slightly modified e-ips that no one seems particularity impressed with. The samsung cost $500 originally but seems to be on sale for $400 just about everywhere now and it seems like they dropped the price to match the new NEC which is around the $400 mark.

    The NEC also carries a 3 year warranty vs the Samsungs 1, and I just dealt with Samsungs support which was not a pleasant experience.

    Appart for that the spec's are about the same, they are both standard gamut, both 5ms response time, both specify a 1k:1 contrast ratio (though the Samsung says that theirs is 1k:1 dynamic) and it seems to have one of the worst contrast ratio's going. Wish I could compare input lag on the two though.

    Edit: doing some poking around I found some reviews for the EA231WMi which Im assuming the EA244WMi is a successor, the reviews are quite good, better black levels then U2209 and U2410, good input lag, if this monitor follows suit it should be quite nice.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  19. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    There is no way for certain to say if the NEC will be better than your Samsung or not at this point. NEC, in general, has good customer service, but it's not like all of their monitors are perfect either. I've dealt with NEC using their customer service chat + phone, and also with the NEC product manager who frequents this site, and both experiences were very good.

    Wait until Prad or TFTcentral does a review on it -- manufacturer specs are sort of meaningless until they are tested independently.

    The Samsung PLS has been going for around $440ish for a while now, so don't think they brought it down specifically because of this NEC. It is a model that Samsung badly needs to update though, so perhaps all of the new panels coming out did bring down its price a little bit.

    As for contrast ratios, paper specs are very general. A monitor can have a 1K:1 paper contrast, yet still be 700-800:1 ... while others may be higher than specs. There is a pretty wide range with IPS, even amongst the same exact panels. But in general manufacturers tend to exaggerate contrast levels -- and ignore dynamic contrast numbers completely. It's simply marketing-speak.

    One key issue with this NEC is if it has a heavy coating or not. If it's just a minor difference, it'd still be unusable to me -- it'd need to be light/semiglossy to be worth considering. I'm also curious how it handles PWM. It'd be a nice bonus if it is like the Eizos that only use it below 20% brightness.
     
  20. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Hmm, who is that NEC product manager who frequents the site? perhaps I could send him a PM and get his thoughts on it as I'm sure he's had the opportunity to test one out.

    Unfortunately I need to take this samsung back on the weekend as the return period is only 7 days and I cant wait around for weeks or months for one of thoes sites to get around to a review so its looking like I might have to trail blaze it myself.
     
  21. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    Art Marshall is who does NEC stuff here.

    If you get it, get it from a place with easy returns, just to be safe.
     
  22. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Well I've sent him a message, hopefully he'll see it and be able to shed a little light on this new monitor for us.
     
  23. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    He did mention that it has a lighter coating than older IPS screens, and has an improved panel (another person here contacted him earlier).

    But I like to see proper reviews before any purchase.

    TFT central just put up its Dell 2413 review, by the way. It looks pretty good (didn't read it in detail yet though)... but contrast is very so-so on it.
     
  24. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Unfortunately at $600 the 2413 just isnt an option, I really cant afford to go past $400, with taxes and shipping thats already close to $500 so it really is my max. Plus I kinda feel like Dell is pushing it with their prices, $400 seems to be where the IPS panel price range is heading, I dont know that they can justify $600.

    Wondering where would be the best place to buy the NEC, maybe just straight from NEC's site?
     
  25. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm not sure where would be best to get it .... typically I prefer Amazon, assuming prices are equal. I think Provantage has it currently cheapest, but no idea on what their return polices are. And for that matter, I don't know what NEC's return polices are either.
     
  26. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Doesnt look like Amazon.ca has any yet, actually no stores I typically buy from are showing up as having any just some ones I've never heard of before, the NEC site seems to be the cheapest too though I'm not sure what they charge for shipping.

    Edit; doesnt look like the NEC site ships to Canada, thats a bummer, gotta find it somewhere that offers dead pixel protection because theres nothing worse then getting a new monitor and finding 1 dead pixel then being stuck with it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  27. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    So I havent heard back from Art yet (sure hope my message sent, there wasnt a confirmation or anything) but I spoke with their live support to try and dig up some facts, they confirmed that the EA244WMi has a light AG coat, not sure how light but hopefully much lighter then the Dell/Asus monitors.

    when I asked them about light bleed this is what I got:

    Me: Does the model have good black levels and are light leaks well controlled?

    Support: Good visual ergonomics and image quality is tested to ensure top performance and reduce sight and strain problems. Important parameters are luminance, contrast, resolution, black level, gamma curve, color and luminance uniformity, color rendition and image stability on this model. If you need better uniformity options with an IPS panel, the PA series would be a better choice.

    Me: So is that a yes, no or you dont know? lol

    Support: Yes

    Make of that what you will lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  28. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    You should expect semi-canned answers when dealing with any customer support person from any company. Good black levels are relative anyway. And no company is going to admit that their monitors suffer from light leaks, even if they do, the rep could get fired over that. If you asked Samsung about the 850, I rather doubt they'd admit it has bleed issues -- it's hardly a great selling point to advertise the fact that a monitor bleeds like a hemophiliac.

    It may take a while before Art answers, sometimes he is super fast, sometimes it took a while (at least when I chatted with him a while ago). Anyone know if this monitor is next in line for a review at Prad or TFT Central? That is when you will find real answers.
     
  29. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Yea unfortunately I dont have the luxury of time, I recon by the time one of thoes sites gets around to a review I will have already had it for a month.

    I know what you mean about the answers from support but they shouldnt flat out lie about it either, if I buy one based on what they tell me and it turns out to be a lie then they owe me a refund.

    From what little I spoke with NEC's support its leaps and bounts above Samsungs, I love when a company offers live chat, samsungs is terrible - you have to email them and then when they respond you have to fill out an entire form every time you want to reply to them, its so disjointed and incoherent and clearly designed to deter people from using it. I was once a fan of Samsung products but now I dont know if I'll ever even consider one again.

    Anyways, samsung rant over, hopefully Art will shed a bit of light on this soon.
     
  30. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah, I really liked NEC's live chat when I previously had to use it. And even when I had to be moved up to a secondary level of support over the phone, it was quick and easy.

    In contrast, when I had to use Dell's support -- it must have taken at least half a dozen phone calls, several different reps all transferring me to different 'divisions', each one more confused than the last. It also didn't help that their phone line sounded like they were using a tin can, and one of them simply gave up when he said his machine wasn't working. It's not a good sign when you call a computer manufacturer support line and their own computers aren't working properly.
     
  31. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    I hate how some companies design their support system to make you want to give up, Ive dealt with several companies where using their customer support was terrible and it seemed like the reps were being paid by each person they get to turn away. The phone quality gets really annoying too, Ive had a couple where you couldnt even hear or understand what the person was saying and then they get pissy at you when you tell them you cant hear them.

    Too few companies actually value their customers these days, its just a numbers game to them and consumers as a whole dont have enough of a back bone to not buy from thoes companies. NEC's customer support seems really good, I even inquired about their dead pixel exchange and its 3 adjecent sub pixels or one whole pixer which is great compared to most manufacturers and shows that they have pride in their product. Thats the kind of thing that earns a company my business, they showed that they value me as a customer and thats my #1 criteria.
     
  32. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  33. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    Managed to get a full refund for the Samsung, glad to have that gone.
     
  34. Namelessme

    Namelessme [H]ard|Gawd

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    Let us know what you think of the NEC once you get it. Ideally you could have compared it side to side with the Samsung, but I expect you preferred just getting your money back as soon as possible instead.

    Nobody else here has reported seeing the NEC yet, so you can be the first guinea pig.
     
  35. U53r

    U53r [H]Lite

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    A side by side would have been cool but the store only has a 7 day return plicy so I had to get it back yesterday or be stuck with it.

    Ill definitely do a quick write up on the NEC and take some photos as soon as I get it, hopefully it will be here by the end of the week.
     
  36. simon311A

    simon311A n00bie

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    Any update on this U53r? Strongly considering the NEC EA244WMi, it would be awesome if you can see if it can support 75hz as well.