Need help...can't decide and itching!!! R9-290X or GTX780Ti

S

Syphon Filter

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Dec 19, 2003
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Gents,

I'm on the cusp of pulling the trigger on a new machine but I cannot decide which GPU to go for.

I will be gaming at 1440p and like to crank up all the settings, bit of a graphics whore I am :p

I tend to play FPS games, the usual AAA releases and some indie stuff (plus a back-cat of stuff that I need to catch up on).

I'd like something that is going to remain relevant for the next 18-24 months or so as I will probably aim for that sort of upgrade cycle.

Most of the reviews are saying a single card is sufficient for 1440p but it looks marginal to me. Would SLI or Crossfire help maintain higher averages and would the difference be beneficial?

Finally, it seems for now the difference between 3GB and 4GB of VRAM is non-existent. The question is, will it become relevant within my upgrade timeframe? If so then should I really be leaning towards to R9-290X (with the benefit that it's cheaper)?

In the case of the 290X, should I hold out for the non-reference cards? I'm itching to buy but I could show some restraint and hold out until the New Year (which is when people are expecting non-ref cards to land in the UK) if I have to...

So, if you were going to buy now which way would you go? :confused:
 
I'm in the same boat with you. Before the 290/290x and the 780ti came out I was looking at the 7970ghz and the 770. Now both the 290x and the 780ti are in my price range. I am looking for a card that will still be relevant for the next two years at 1080p. Before I pull the trigger I want to see what the non reference 290x brings to the table. I can't live with the reference design and I do not want to get involved in add on aftermarket coolers. Like you I am itching so hard I'm bleeding, but I'll be damned if I buy before the non reference 290x versions come out.
 
The GTX 780Ti is definitely the top performer but you'd get better performance per dollar with the R9 290X.

Personally, I'd go with the 780Ti if you can afford it or wait for the aftermarket coolers before purchasing the R9 290X.

If you are going to water cool then the R9 290X is the easy choice.
 
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Not planning on water-cooling hence the debate over waiting for custom 290X cards.

From what I've read (including in thread I posted) it seems even water-cooling doesn't really "unleash" the 290X cards...so the only thing the custom cards will offer is lower noise & temps (which is nice).

That extra GB of VRAM is also bugging/luring me...

Also, is the GK110 a particularly new architecture? Is it going to see reasonable gains as drivers mature?

With the 290X being on the new GCN2.0 architecture I am guessing there is the possibility of some improvements as drivers develop.
 
there will probably be really respectable gains as the AMD drivers mature for the 290 cards, I doubt you will see anything too impressive on the Nvidia side, as that architecture has been a known quantity for a while now.
 
Yet another reason to hold out...eurgh.

I've been without a PC for 8 years! 8 long and painful years! Not sure I can hold out much longer!!!

I'm actually starting to be tempted by a reference 290X but really not sure about those temps and fans...
 
the noise is pretty overblown in my opinion, but I prefer a loud computer because it gives me an audible way to know my cooling is working correctly.

Silent computers make me nervous.
 
What about temps and throttling?

I could deal with some noise but not too much.

It seems the 780Ti has some OC headroom too.

I'm rubbish at making a decision!
 
If you have a reference card already, to hear what the new AMDs sound like:
For 40% (normal mode with considerable underclock): Turn an existing AMD card to 40%, or an nvidia to about 60%
For 55% (Uber mode with minimal underclocking): Turn an existing AMD card to 55%, or an nvidia to 90%.
For 75% (what you will need to use for crossfire with no downscaling): Turn an existing AMD card to 75%. There is no nvidia equivalent for this noise level.
 
Syphon Filter said:
What about temps and throttling?

I could deal with some noise but not too much.

It seems the 780Ti has some OC headroom too.

I'm rubbish at making a decision!
Click to expand...

The 780ti is a much better card, but it's obviously more expensive. Until aftermarket 290X cards arrive, I would not consider it - I've used AMD reference cards extensively and they are not fucking quiet at 55%. The fanboys will say, "it's not that bad" etc etc etc but - I have a cosmos II case 3 feet from me and 55% with a reference 7970 was too noisy. In fact, I never used 55% with my 7970s and I was sitll able to overclock my 7970s - yet the 290X would REQUIRE you to use 55% fanspeed or you will lose performance. To expand on this, if you ever attempt to use quieter fan speeds on the 290X you will lose exponential amounts of performance - at 34% fan speed (which is equivalent to the GTX 780 in terms of acoustics) the 290X is 22-25% slower due to throttling.

Personally I find that entire situation where you need loud fans for proper performance to be bullshit. You don't deal with stupid shit like that if you get the 780ti. If you're using the stock cooling, I think the 780ti or an overclocked 780 is the superior product; also keep in mind that an overclocked GTX 780 is 15% faster than the 290X and 15% faster than the Titan. The 290X is faster than a stock 780, but isn't faster than an overclocked 780, not even close. The 780ti overclocks even better than that, the ti is on par with the GTX 690 when overclocked......

Basically, your choice is either dealing with bullshit and get maybe great performance if you can stand the heat and noise (290X) or get great performance without bullshit AMD issues. (780/780ti). The nvidia 700 series also have far more OC headroom than either of the 290 cards, so that's something to keep in mind if you're an overclocker. That said, the 290X will become a great card once aftermarket designs hit the market, but I would not touch the reference design. It isn't worth it. AMD put a piece of shit cooler on the 290X which causes significant issues unless you want dust buster noise, and they expected AIB partners to pick up that slack. To be sure, the aftermarket 290X cards should be great. But...again....I wouldn't want to deal with the issues of reference.
 
I don't really understand why the cooler is so bad for the R9 290X. The HD5970 used more power and wasn't as loud, it certainly wasn't as hot. What's changed here? The fact that there are two contact points shouldn't matter really, given how primitive the heatsinks were on those things. You have to remember up to the HD5 series AMD used 5000rpm radials, as of the HD6 series they're now 6000rpm, so 55%, given the slightly non-linear scale, is a good 3500rpm+, it's loud, no getting around it. I put up with this with my HD4870X2s for fairly obvious reasons, but having had two quiet HD6970s (also reference cooled) I really don't want to go back to that situation where I'm paranoid about making sure my case fans are turned up before I play games, and have to sit in a sweltering hot room with crazy fan noise. To be the best of the best in 2009/2010 it was necessary. With just one or two single-GPU cards, it really shouldn't be. I've stuck up for a lot of AMD's misgivings in the past, but the 290/290X are an engineering failure, no two ways about it.
 
xoleras said:
The 780ti is a much better card, but it's obviously more expensive. Until aftermarket 290X cards arrive, I would not consider it - I've used AMD reference cards extensively and they are not fucking quiet at 55%. The fanboys will say, "it's not that bad" etc etc etc but - I have a cosmos II case 3 feet from me and 55% with a reference 7970 was too noisy. In fact, I never used 55% with my 7970s and I was sitll able to overclock my 7970s - yet the 290X would REQUIRE you to use 55% fanspeed or you will lose performance. To expand on this, if you ever attempt to use quieter fan speeds on the 290X you will lose exponential amounts of performance - at 34% fan speed (which is equivalent to the GTX 780 in terms of acoustics) the 290X is 22-25% slower due to throttling.

Personally I find that entire situation where you need loud fans for proper performance to be bullshit. You don't deal with stupid shit like that if you get the 780ti. If you're using the stock cooling, I think the 780ti or an overclocked 780 is the superior product; also keep in mind that an overclocked GTX 780 is 15% faster than the 290X and 15% faster than the Titan. The 290X is faster than a stock 780, but isn't faster than an overclocked 780, not even close. The 780ti overclocks even better than that, the ti is on par with the GTX 690 when overclocked......

Basically, your choice is either dealing with bullshit and get maybe great performance if you can stand the heat and noise (290X) or get great performance without bullshit AMD issues. (780/780ti). The nvidia 700 series also have far more OC headroom than either of the 290 cards, so that's something to keep in mind if you're an overclocker. That said, the 290X will become a great card once aftermarket designs hit the market, but I would not touch the reference design. It isn't worth it. AMD put a piece of shit cooler on the 290X which causes significant issues unless you want dust buster noise, and they expected AIB partners to pick up that slack. To be sure, the aftermarket 290X cards should be great. But...again....I wouldn't want to deal with the issues of reference.
Click to expand...

you have said repeatedly that the fan noise bothers you, you seem to be in the minority when it comes to fan noise bugging you.

Most people don't care, and of the people that do care, what percentage game with headphones on?

It's so much less of an issue than you keep trying to make it out to be. Being fervently anti fan noise isn't much better than being a fanboy, and acting like it's a deal breaker with the 290s is pretty silly.
 
I strongly disagree with 55% not being loud. I used both the 6970 and 7970 and overclocked both of those cards, yet neither of those cards ever required me to use anything past 43% fanspeed to maintain overclocked speeds.

That's the problem with the 290X. You don't have an option for quiet fan speeds unless you want to lose performance. At 40% fan speed, you lose 18% performance (per anandtech). At 34% fanspeed (which is equal to the GTX 780 acoustics) you lose 25% performance. That, right there, is the key difference: With the 7970 you could use quiet fan levels. With the 290X? You're fucked. I think it's loud as fuck at 55%, now some may differ in opinion but look at web reviews. At 55%, the 290X is louder than the GTX 480. Is someone going to tell me the GTX 480 was a quiet card? Give me a break.

The fact that YOU DO NOT HAVE AN OPTION for reasonable acoustics with the 290X is the entire issue. If you want proper performance, you have to tolerate fan noise that is louder than the GTX 480. I dare someone to tell me that the 480 was a quiet card.

Long story short, wait for aftermarket if you want a 290X. The reference isn't worth it for dealing with the AMD issues.
 
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stealthy123 said:
you have said repeatedly that the fan noise bothers you, you seem to be in the minority when it comes to fan noise bugging you.

Most people don't care, and of the people that do care, what percentage game with headphones on?

It's so much less of an issue than you keep trying to make it out to be. Being fervently anti fan noise isn't much better than being a fanboy, and acting like it's a deal breaker with the 290s is pretty silly.
Click to expand...

And that's why you put an accelero on your card huh? Are you going to tell me the GTX 480 was a quiet card? I criticized that card for the same reasons, you can call me a fanboy all day long but the reference 290X is a hot and loud piece of junk IMO. Aftermarket cards will fix that, but I would not touch a reference card that is louder than the 480. Like I said, you also don't get the option for quiet fan speeds on the 290X. It's either 55% fanspeed or lower performance. Does that sound acceptable to you? It doesn't to me. I could use quiet fans on my former 7970s. Not so on the 290X.

I also had a similar opinion of the 480 being a hot and loud POS. AMD isn't getting a free pass for making a hot and loud POS cooler - which doesn't give you an option for quiet fans unless you want excessive throttling.

Let me also be clear here: I would advocate a 780 or 780ti over a reference 290/290X. Aftermarket 290X cards can and probably will change my opinion somewhat - once the issues present with the reference design are gone, that changes things. Basically, if the OP wants a 290 or 290X - wait for aftermarket. If he wants a card now I think the 780s are better buys. Again, aftermarket 290s will change a lot of opinions; yet this is how I feel with things as they are with the reference. I really think that AMD is asking for too many compromises with their reference design - this problem should not exist AT ALL on aftermarket 290X cards, and that's where the Hawaii chip will shine.
 
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While I could put on headphones to negate the noise issues, my wife, who sits across the room from me, would not be pleased with a lot of noise. Hence I am waiting to see what the non reference cards are like.
 
I have 2 290s, and I put the accelero on one because I enjoy modding hardware, I didn't care about the noise and I still don't.

the fan on the 290 is literally a tiny bit louder than my case fans when it's set @ 55 percent.

I never had a 480, but I did have a 5800 ultra, and the fan on the 290 isn't anywhere close to that annoying.
 
Before this gets completely out of proportion, loud fan noise does render the card unusable, however in this case it is sufficiently loud that it does change usage patterns. e.g. people that play games in the same room as someone else watching TV say, is not necessarily possible with an R9 290/290X whereas it would be with a GTX780/780Ti. That's not a big usage case, but it does affect a fair few people. There is always an option, be it water cooling, or a big aftermarket cooler, or waiting for non-reference cards. The 290s aren't unusable like this, but they're far from ideal, and they may not be suitable purchases for many until the non-reference derivatives arrive.
 
If I was gaming in the living room with a chick sitting there watching TV, yes the noise would quickly become a problem, but I am pretty sure she would bitch about the case fans too.

I don't own any relatively new consoles, but I have read multiple reports of the ps3 and the xbox 360 being way louder than a 290x.

I guess I should also point out I have fish tanks, and there is a constant noise in my house no matter what, so maybe I just don't notice stuff other people would be driven crazy over.
 
Noisy case fans is an easy fix :p
Neither of those consoles are as loud as the AMD radial at 55%, but the noise pitch the 360 generates is far more annoying, so on balance, it's about right.
 
I would get two 290's. think about the performance difference between a 780ti and two 290's, and compare their prices. you get a ton of performance for a little money more if you go with the crossfire route using 290's.
 
Well the good news, aftermarket 290X cards should hit in 2-3 weeks. Like I said before my opinions will change in all likelihood with the custom designs, I just feel the reference is asking for too many compromises - the 290X should really be great once good custom cards hit. If someone *must* buy now I do consider the GTX 780/780ti to be superior products compared to the reference 290/X. Once a custom 290X exists without the noise/throttling issues? Sign me up. That's a product i'd consider buying.
 
Didn't read the entire thread but the sapphire 290x is on sale for cyber Monday for $475 after coupon code MBLCM10 if you pay through newegg mobile.
 
So the advice is to wait for non-ref 290 cards if I can.

As much as I procrastinate I'm also impulsive...I'll hold out if I can.

Maybe I can grab a cheapo card to tide me over until the new year?

What are the integrated graphics like on an i4770k?

I want, nay NEED, a build in my life!

Edit: I'm in the UK so The Egg is no use, thanks though. :)
 
Not sure what the budget it. The considerations change dramatically depending on budget.

If you are strapped for cash and can only do ~400 bucks then you need a 290
If you have some more cash, I would go GTX 780 custom card over a 290
If you want to go AMD and don't want to spend ~700 you can go 290X
If you have 700 to spare which it seems like you do, then get a 780 Ti but if you have 800 then R9 290 CFX is better value
If you have about a 1000 bucks then I would say best option is 780 GTX SLi. It gives you a lot of flexibility with gaming and performance enhancements that will meet a stock GTX 780 Ti SLi setup if you buy custom cards and overclock a bit.

For 1440 and 120 Hz gaming you would want to go SLi or CFX. For the R9 series, waiting for custom cooled cards is an absolute must imo.

My overall recommendation given price, performance, stability, noise, heat and additional features is a GTX 780 SLi. It is worth shelling the extra money to go SLi and will give you fantastic performance across the board in ALL games out today with the ability to use vendor specific features.
 
For the purposes of this debate lets say cash is a non-issue and SLI/CFX are available options. I think my main considerations are as follows:

1. Will the extra 1GB of VRAM matter in the next couple of years?

2. Is the 290X fundamentally at its limits (i.e. is there very little OCing headroom generally speaking even with decent cooling)?

3. Is the 290X likely to see good gains through driver improvements that will see it pip the 780Ti?

4. Conversely, is the 780Ti mature to the point that drivers will only yield small gains?

I think that's all it comes down to really. I just need something that is going to last a while so I need to make the right choice as I will be stuck with whatever I go with for around 2 years (at least that is the plan).

On the issue of noise...I can deal with moderate levels as I will be using a headset for gaming most of the time anyway. Having said that, quieter is obviously better.

Looks like it would daft to not wait to see what the non-ref 290X cards will bring to the table.

Fiddlesticks.
 
Syphon Filter said:
For the purposes of this debate lets say cash is a non-issue and SLI/CFX are available options. I think my main considerations are as follows:

1. Will the extra 1GB of VRAM matter in the next couple of years?

2. Is the 290X fundamentally at its limits (i.e. is there very little OCing headroom generally speaking even with decent cooling)?

3. Is the 290X likely to see good gains through driver improvements that will see it pip the 780Ti?

4. Conversely, is the 780Ti mature to the point that drivers will only yield small gains?

I think that's all it comes down to really. I just need something that is going to last a while so I need to make the right choice as I will be stuck with whatever I go with for around 2 years (at least that is the plan).

On the issue of noise...I can deal with moderate levels as I will be using a headset for gaming most of the time anyway. Having said that, quieter is obviously better.

Looks like it would daft to not wait to see what the non-ref 290X cards will bring to the table.

Fiddlesticks.
Click to expand...

If cash is a non issue then the choice is obvious. The 780ti is both faster and less noisy.
 
If cash is not an issue and you want the best thing out then GTX 780 Ti Sli is the option. It will have moderate levels of noise and has about 15-20% performance through overclocking in terms of headroom. Overall the Ti is definitely mature in terms of drivers plus driver profiles for SLi are available on time (e.g., Ass Creed 4 profile was available a day before launch of game, same for NFS Rivals; afaik this was not true for AMD). Also, the gains through driver improvements would be minimal on existing games and maybe possible in new games (e.g., 18% improvement in BF4 was reported in latest driver iterations).

290X is not at its limits and I expect driver improvements and possibly Mantle API may offer improvements in select games. Getting a non reference card may seem like a good option. What I would be more worried about is having 2 of those cards in CFX with non reference coolers throwing hot air in the case. Yet to be seen if this is an issue or not since no non-reference cards are available. Also not sure if black screen issue is fixed or not and I personally would not buy a 290X until I see less reports of issues.

If money is not an option then the 780 Ti seems like the logical options. If money is an issue than 290X seems a valid option. If you have some cap on budget then my original recommendation of 780 SLi still stands since you can overclock 2 cards in SLi easily to 1050-1075 core / 6400-6500 memory and get virtually the same performance as a STOCK GTX 780 Ti SLi setup.

Btw, if you want multi monitor setup then AMD is the way to go. If you want 3D gaming then nVidia is the way to go. Some other considerations in decision making.
 
^I'll echo the above opinion for a GTX 780. Why does he even have to get GTX 780ti? An overclocked GTX 780 is 15% faster than Titan and 15% faster than the 290X. I have no idea why the 780 vanilla isn't in consideration here, I consider it a superior product to the 290 and 290X for the time being.

Once you sell the 3 games, the price between the 290 and GTX 780 is small - and you get MUCH better software, 15% better than Titan or 290X performance once you overclock it, reasonable acoustics, and an all around superior product. IMO, the GTX 780 should get a strong consideration here because of the massive OC headroom and scaling.

This is a GTX 780 with a REALLY MODEST 1143 boost overclock:

perf_oc.gif


This is significantly faster than both the 290X and significantly faster than Titan once you overclock. I'd look at the overclocked 780 boards before messing with the 780ti, to be honest - the 290 is a consideration but wait for non reference if you do so. The reference design has far too many issues IMO. Conversely, you can have your cake and eat it if you just buy an OC 780 now.
 
stealthy123 said:
I don't own any relatively new consoles, but I have read multiple reports of the ps3 and the xbox 360 being way louder than a 290x.
Click to expand...

I own a PS3 and and I used to own a 360. Both are loud for being living room appliances. I've heard people say that the PS3 is quite. No way. I can hear it while watching a movie from about 8 feet away. That's unacceptable.
I don't own a 290X yet. Maybe in a couple of months. I hope it isn't near as loud as a PS3.
 
@capnstabn

Are you running stock cooling?

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger today...Does anyone have any final words of advice???
 
If you are buying today, I will still recommend a custom cooled GTX 780 OC edition (EVGA FTW, Classified, SC OR MSI Lightning, OR ASUS DCU 2) over a stock cooled R9 290X.
 
5760x1200 on my 290x is fantastic... bf3 in ultra and bf4 is ultra/high combo is extremely smooth.
 
Syphon Filter said:
@capnstabn

Are you running stock cooling?

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger today...Does anyone have any final words of advice???
Click to expand...

Ya im running stock cooling with a closed case. I am going to have to double check temps when I get home but I OCd them both to 290x speeds (might have been a touch higher), increased fanspeed to 56%ish, and I don't think they went over 88c. Cranked furmark and dual primes to really jack up the air temp in the case and they held steady. Other than driver quirks (which might piss you off) I am happy. I have mostly been playing FFXIV ARR, Arkham Origins, Ghosts, and BF4. When I full screened some of the games I had some wierd performance issues so I switched those to borderless windowed and they ran amazingly. BF4 on ultra everything at 1440p/110hz really brings a wave of satisfaction over me. I apologize for the poorly written post, still a bit drunk from last night.
 
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