NEC 3090 vs Samsung XL30

Which monitor would you choose:

  • Samsung XL30

    Votes: 5 20.0%
  • NEC LCD3090WQXI-BK

    Votes: 15 60.0%
  • other

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • wait for something new to come out

    Votes: 3 12.0%

  • Total voters
    25

pawstar

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 2, 2005
Messages
465
If you had a choice between the NEC LCD3090WQXI-BK monitor and Samsung XL30, which one would you pick and why or would you choose another model or wait for something new to come out.

From the information that I have gathered and from various members of this forum:

NEC:
+ advanced integrated menu, superb configurability
+ H-IPS
+ lower cost vs pro monitors (e.g. Ezio, Planar)
+ excellent scalar
+- auto brightness but still too bright when not using panel dimming
- text sharpness (graininess, ips sparkle)
- excessive heat & warmup period
- background bleeding

XL30:
+ LED BLU (thats what its all about)
+ excellent color rendition (subject to second negative point)
+ widest gamut available
+ superior text
+ brightness where it should be
- astronomical price
- QC issues
- 1st generation bugs
- input lag (unknown value)
- PVA (though better than other non Samsung 30" PVA panels)
 
NEC:
+ advanced integrated menu
+ H-IPS
+ lower cost vs pro monitors
+ excellent scalar (Unprecedented, unlimited - to be precise)
+- auto brightness but still too bright (Wrong. It's as bright as you want it to be. Auto Brightness and Dynamic brightness - to reduce eye strain)
+ Full HD (1080p) hardware support
+ Two digital inputs for PC and PS3/Blu-ray connection at the same time
+ Input lag as low as ~28ms
+ Fully adjustable stand with Pivot
- text sharpness (Wrong. Text is sharp due to H-IPS pixel structure. Sharpness control available)
- excessive heat & warmup period (Wrong. No excessive heat. It works right away. It's recommended to warm it up 30 min before hardware calibration - for best results. Until that Auto Luminance feature is available to compensate)
- background bleeding (Depends on a particalar unit)

XL30:
+ LED BLU (thats what its all about)
+ excellent color rendition (Not comparable to the NEC3090 due to Samsung panel technology limitation - color shifting on *VA)
+ widest gamut available
+ superior text
+ brightness where it should be
- astronomical price
- QC issues
- 1st generation bugs
- input lag (unknown value)
- PVA (though better than most) Same panel
- screen color homogeneity issue (LED BLU problem) with no compensation function
- limited ergonomics, no Pivot
- just one input
- primitive (if any) scalar
- 1080p hardware support unknown
 
NEC:
-> brightness: yes, I know you can go lower with panel dimming, but the lowest native dimming is at 230 http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032497729&postcount=214
-> warmup: good to know about the compensation feature, though I suspect quality will be somewhat reduced. Reports of whites taking hours to reach final tone though http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032423652&postcount=159
-> background bleeding: there were reports in that big thread multiple exchanges. Also a suggestion to let it run at full brightness for a period of time to reduce it

Samsung:
-> excellent color rendition: if you get a good copy this apparently is the best of any monitor due to LED. Yes, there will be shift (I hate PVAs for it), but when e.g. editing photos, not as big of a problem as you are usually facing the screen head on.
 
NEC:
-> brightness: yes, I know you can go lower with panel dimming, but the lowest native dimming is at 230 http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032497729&postcount=214
-> warmup: good to know about the compensation feature, though I suspect quality will be somewhat reduced. Reports of whites taking hours to reach final tone though http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032423652&postcount=159
-> background bleeding: there were reports in that big thread multiple exchanges. Also a suggestion to let it run at full brightness for a period of time to reduce it

Samsung:
-> excellent color rendition: if you get a good copy this apparently is the best of any monitor due to LED. Yes, there will be shift (I hate PVAs for it), but when e.g. editing photos, not as big of a problem as you are usually facing the screen head on.


brightness: yes, I know you can go lower with panel dimming, but the lowest native dimming is at 230
:):) As long as you use monitor brightness control - it's monitor native dimming.

Reports of whites taking hours to reach final tone though
??????? You need to clarify that.
I had no problem.

as you are usually facing the screen head on
When you face the screen head on dark shadow details are lost (crushed) in the center while colors on both sides begin to wash out. Even facing the screen head on you see different parts of PVA screen at different angles. With PVA poor angle stability it leads to color drifting. To reveal lost details you have to look from an angle that causes drifting of the rest of the picture. It's endless. The more the screen the worse the problem. The closer the screen the worse the problem.
 
As long as you use monitor brightness control - it's monitor native dimming.

I know its internal to the circuitry, but it does digital dimming to lower brightness rather than just dimming the fluorescent tubes thus reducing contrast & bit depth. See the note in the manual at the top of page English-11.

According to that post it goes into "blocking" mode with a brightness below 230.

??????? You need to clarify that.
I had no problem.

I read reports that it takes a few mins to reach normal brightness and then the color of white gradually shifts for the next while. BTW even the manual says "For optimum performance, allow 20 minutes for warm-up" on pg English-4 (nothing about calibration there).

When you face the screen head on dark shadow details are lost (crushed) in the center while colors on both sides begin to wash out. Even facing the screen head on you see different parts of PVA screen at different angles. With PVA poor angle stability it leads to color drifting. To reveal lost details you have to look from an angle that causes drifting of the rest of the picture. It's endless. The more the screen the worse the problem. The closer the screen the worse the problem.

Yes, hence why the "-PVA" is there - but apparently it can't be that bad otherwise Ezio would not be using it in their expensive pro lines. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate your concerns but I just hope it doesn't turn into a generic IPS vs PVA argument.
 
The XL30 is over twice the price of the 3090, so it's not really a fair comparison. I haven't seen the 3090, but I had the Dell 3008WFP which uses the same panel. I didn't like it: the backlight is too bright and runs too hot, stable brightness is achieved only after a long warm-up period (a couple of hours!), grainy look on light solid-color backgrounds.

I love what the XL30 is capable of, and I would strongly recommend it if it wasn't buggy as I reported in other posts.

I would add the Eizo CG301W to the comparison, but it's even more expensive than the XL30. It has a CCFL backlight, not LED. The build quality of the Eizo is superb, and it has rich configuration capabilities, but there's nothing particularly striking about the image quality. Brightness uniformity isn't very good on my unit (right side is noticeably brighter than left side). Color uniformity is good on my unit. By the way, the Eizo has a fan that runs all the time. The XL30 has a fan that stays off unless the unit starts overheating.

I use the XL30 most of the time.
 
Yeah, I know it isn't a fair price comparison, but those are the top two monitors that I am considering :p . Oh and the XL30 comes the a colorometer but the NEC sells it as an addon, right? So that reduces the price gap by like $300, so its a diff of $1.8k, thats a little bit less than half.

I stare at a monitor for 12+ hours a day so want to get something good. I just wish other people could chime in with their experience on either of the two. I would go for the XL30 in a heartbeat if it weren't for the high price of a potentially bad apple. But I guess there are very few people who got that one. :(
 
I know its internal to the circuitry, but it does digital dimming to lower brightness rather than just dimming the fluorescent tubes thus reducing contrast & bit depth. See the note in the manual at the top of page English-11.

According to that post it goes into "blocking" mode with a brightness below 230.



I read reports that it takes a few mins to reach normal brightness and then the color of white gradually shifts for the next while. BTW even the manual says "For optimum performance, allow 20 minutes for warm-up" on pg English-4 (nothing about calibration there).



Yes, hence why the "-PVA" is there - but apparently it can't be that bad otherwise Ezio would not be using it in their expensive pro lines. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate your concerns but I just hope it doesn't turn into a generic IPS vs PVA argument.

Yes, hence why the "-PVA" is there - but apparently it can't be that bad otherwise Ezio would not be using it in their expensive pro lines.

It's exactly as it is.
There are no special PVA technology for Eizo.
Same color shifting. As you see in the photo: left - black crush from the front; right - details revealed but in different way, you see three different images depending on the angle while in fact they all are identical.
It is exactly that bad and it is used for CG pro line.
Why? I guess - business...
The "true" Eizo has IPS - $5000 22.2" CG221
 
The XL30 is over twice the price of the 3090, so it's not really a fair comparison.

What if the future 30" TN comes up with LED and $4000 price tag?
So we cannot compare with $2000 IPS because...
$4000 TN is twice as good as $2000 IPS? 4000/2000=2, exactly, twice as good.
Just because somebody decided to write 4000 instead of 1000 in front of TN?:)
We can compare monitor performance and choose. Why not pay for the better?
In this comparison we have something opposite. XL30 with performance 50% of 3090 costs 150-200% of 3090.
So what is unfair? Prices!:)
 
albovin,

The only advantage that the 3090 has over the XL30 is in terms of color/gamma shift. If that's all you care about, then fine. On all other fronts, the XL30 is much better than the 3090, and the list of advantages is quite long.

If you actually saw the two side-by-side, I can't imagine that you would pick the 3090 over the XL30 unless all you care about is the minor color/gamma shift of the XL30. Other than that, the image quality of the 30" Samsung panel with LED BLU is in a completely different league than that of the 30" LG panel with CCFL. There's just no comparison - the difference is obvious right away.

If and when Samsung fixes the bugs that plague the XL30, it will be an absolutely fabulous product without peer on the market. We'll have to wait for OLED to beat that.
 
albovin,

The only advantage that the 3090 has over the XL30 is in terms of color/gamma shift. If that's all you care about, then fine. On all other fronts, the XL30 is much better than the 3090, and the list of advantages is quite long.

If you actually saw the two side-by-side, I can't imagine that you would pick the 3090 over the XL30 unless all you care about is the minor color/gamma shift of the XL30. Other than that, the image quality of the 30" Samsung panel with LED BLU is in a completely different league than that of the 30" LG panel with CCFL. There's just no comparison - the difference is obvious right away.

If and when Samsung fixes the bugs that plague the XL30, it will be an absolutely fabulous product without peer on the market. We'll have to wait for OLED to beat that.

The only advantage that the 3090 has over the XL30 is in terms of color/gamma shift.

But this is a huge principal advantage.
That is why people pay more for IPS.
Everyone already knows that if you need photographic level of picture quality on your monitor you have to get rid of VA/TN panel.

This VA problem is less critical but still noticable on movies playback.

If you do just internet and office - no problem for VA. In this area XL30 may claim little better score among a limited number of users which are more suceptible to cristalline effect of AG coating. This is purely subjective but 30" PVA has same as 2490, e.g little less effect than 3090. And this effect is minimized by setting appropriate for 30" dpi.
For the majority of users this detail does not exist at all.
3090 has no more advantages?
What about the first posts of this thread where advantages are listed (just obvious ones, even without going deeper in calibration and measurements)?


On all other fronts, the XL30 is much better than the 3090, and the list of advantages is quite long.
What are those all fronts?
Ergonomics?
Connectivity?
Flexibility?
Scaling?
Full HD support?
Input lag?
Eye strain reducing technology?
sRGB mode?
...?

What prevents you from shearing this long list with us?
Why are you hiding this jucy list?
Why not do proper instrumental measurements and post a thorough review of XL30?

Best wishes.
 
XL30 is PVA based, end of dicussion... and they call it a "pro-monitor", give me a break. Your blacks are crushed and the gamma is different on the edges, please explain to me how this is suitable for the target market.
 
I have a good experience with samsung, I ve been using it for couple of years already
 
What are those all fronts?
Ergonomics?
Connectivity?
Flexibility?
Scaling?
Full HD support?
Input lag?
Eye strain reducing technology?
sRGB mode?
...?

It's better where it counts most - image quality:

1) Colors looks better.
2) Brightness and color uniformity are pretty much perfect if you get a good unit - I've never seen anything close to that uniformity on 30" CCFL-backed panels.
3) Great small text readability.
4) Much smoother and less grainy look than the LG panel.

Other advantages:

1) Very little heat is generated.
2) No warm-up - stable brightness is achieved instantaneously.
 
S-PVA bad.
H-IPS good.

:) :D

Edit:
I think my resume is not enough, so let's behold the horrible S-PVA gamma shift in all its terrible "beauty":

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eizocg241wcolorshifthq1.jpg

Nice pic. Great example showing a supposedly professional Eizo. I seriously can't imagine why anyone doing serious work wouldn't get an IPS.

Though for me even general usage on a PVA wasn't possible because the weird horizontal viewing angle behavior, caused a strange holographic effect which was distracting/tiring. I have actually gone back to TN for general usage.
 
It's better where it counts most - image quality:

1) Colors looks better.
2) Brightness and color uniformity are pretty much perfect if you get a good unit - I've never seen anything close to that uniformity on 30" CCFL-backed panels.
3) Great small text readability.
4) Much smoother and less grainy look than the LG panel.

Other advantages:

1) Very little heat is generated.
2) No warm-up - stable brightness is achieved instantaneously.

The brightness uniformity and better colour is because of LED backlighting not the PVA technology. Colour uniformity is flawed on VA based panels, there is no fix for this as its tied to the technology itself.

As for the grainy look it there for a reason(anti-glare), for perfect colour any glare must be dispersed otherwise what you see is different to what is actually on the screen.
 
1) Colors looks better.
2) Brightness and color uniformity are pretty much perfect if you get a good unit - I've never seen anything close to that uniformity on 30" CCFL-backed panels.
3) Great small text readability.
4) Much smoother and less grainy look than the LG panel.

Other advantages:

1) Very little heat is generated.
2) No warm-up - stable brightness is achieved instantaneously.


1) Colors look better. :):) Technically impossible due to color shifting on VA.
Theoretically: only only for purified color samples that calibration/testing software may generate - yes, due to minimally wider gamut and 2xtheoretically due to LED specifics only. For real images - it's out of the question.

2) Brightness and color uniformity are pretty much perfect if you get a good unit - I've never seen anything close to that uniformity on 30" CCFL-backed panels. We are talking about the NEC 3090, not abstract CCFL panels. 3090 has Uniformity control that helps if necessary. Regarding XL30 - what if you don't get a "good" unit?
Theoretically: LED is supposed to provide better backlight uniformity, nothing about color uniformity though
.

3) Great small text readability. Subjective.
4) Much smoother and less grainy look than the LG panel. You haven't seen the NEC. But yes, AG effect is slightly more visible than on 30" PVA. Again - subjective. May affect the tiniest text which 30" 2560x1600 is not suitable for - easily treated by setting appropriate for 30" dpi.

Other advantages:

1) Very little heat is generated. Why do you think 3090 generates much heat? It does not.
2) No warm-up - stable brightness is achieved instantaneously What is "stable" brightness, how do you measure it, what is "warm-up" time for the NEC 3090, how do you measure it and why is "warm-up time" so important that you put it in the list of "advantages"? Why not measure the time required for calibration, for example?
BTW 3090 has another control - Auto luminance - to care of brightness stability.
 
I have posted some remarks on this thread that can help others decide according to what you use this. I do admit I have only seen the NEC for a breif time, and I have not seen it side to side or tested the NEC...

but I did end up buying the XL30 :)
 
1) Colors look better. Technically impossible due to color shifting on VA.
Theoretically: only only for purified color samples that calibration/testing software may generate - yes, due to minimally wider gamut and 2xtheoretically due to LED specifics only. For real images - it's out of the question.
2) Brightness and color uniformity are pretty much perfect if you get a good unit - I've never seen anything close to that uniformity on 30" CCFL-backed panels. We are talking about the NEC 3090, not abstract CCFL panels. 3090 has Uniformity control that helps if necessary. Regarding XL30 - what if you don't get a "good" unit?
Theoretically: LED is supposed to provide better backlight uniformity, nothing about color uniformity though.
3) Great small text readability. Subjective.
4) Much smoother and less grainy look than the LG panel. You haven't seen the NEC. But yes, AG effect is slightly more visible than on 30" PVA. Again - subjective. May affect the tiniest text which 30" 2560x1600 is not suitable for - easily treated by setting appropriate for 30" dpi.

Other advantages:

1) Very little heat is generated. Why do you think 3090 generates much heat? It does not.
2) No warm-up - stable brightness is achieved instantaneously What is "stable" brightness, how do you measure it, what is "warm-up" time for the NEC 3090, how do you measure it and why is "warm-up time" so important that you put it in the list of "advantages"? Why not measure the time required for calibration, for example?
BTW 3090 has another control - Auto luminance - to care of brightness stability

1: Colors DO indeed look better. The SHIFT you refer to does not effect color, it is a black point or gamma variation...which is so slight, hardly worth a comment.
I think this term COLOR SHIFT is incorrect...it is not a color shift in the sense that color is washed out or less saturated, when viewing at an angle black point slightly rises.

ODDLY enough this helps DTP, editor see variations throughout a gradiant, or a continuos tone.

2: EVERYTHING looks dead on uniform
3: I never inspected text on the NEC, but this is CRISP
4:Very smooth matte like finish, no grain (if you get a 30", your gonna want to run it at full native, of course the text, specially the tiniest text matters).

5: Heat...Yes heat...when you work in a area that has 2 to 5 systems running with a couple monster printers, the less heat the better.

6: Warm up time...not a big deal, but No one wants to wait 20 minutes to get going

7:less fan noise

8: Brightness doesnt die after a couple years of constant usage

9: Color shifts(meaning colors) don't occur from a aged unit 2 ,3 or so years old, and harder to calibrate, with age often cannot be calibrated. (Yet to see if LED is immune to this, but the technology in this regard is proven and can assume the same applies here).

10: No flicker..at any bandwidth. This I never new was something, until I got the XL30 and you go from screen to screen
 
Ablovin, I think this image reveals what you SHOULD be seeing on your screen vs what your NEC is not capable of showing on your screen...

You see the green area? This area has a slightly deeper black value then the NON green area, so when you see this on the screen, you SHOULD be able to tell ...ever so slightly.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QNGYHBPZMRGah8uyHlCZzQ"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_8zI40BpD424/SSZ5ONtURII/AAAAAAAAABg/j8gPZJCuWZg/s144/299%20or%20more.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/draxxo/Testing">Testing</a></td></tr></table>
 
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QNGYHBPZMRGah8uyHlCZzQ"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_8zI40BpD424/SSZ5ONtURII/AAAAAAAAABg/j8gPZJCuWZg/s800/299%20or%20more.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/draxxo/Testing">Testing</a></td></tr></table>


I was hoping this garbage would embed the image
 
I have the planar 26" ips panel and love it. I would love to get this, just wish it was led backlit. For the price i cant justify ccfl with their limited life and brightness degradation. Anyone use it for FPS gaming ? Based on the response times, it seems it would be as good as my planar at 6ms.
 
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