NEC 2490WUXi - The Full Story

10e

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Yeah, that's probably a caveat of the WUXi2 that I can't use my old version of SVii version 1.0.42. Maybe I should try it? :D

I did notice the backlight gets raised to 339 cdm/2 with a .40 cdm/2 black value before the monitor is adjusted as well. That comes out to 850:1 contrast. But the minimal black value I can see is .18 cdm/2 with brightness at 0% so theoretically I would be there if I had 153 cdm/2 whites and .18 cdm/2 blacks, BUT even though I've calibrated to 155 cdm/2 as well, the best I got was .19 cdm/2 blacks after calibrating.

At this point my black level is about .19 cdm/2 and my white level is around 133 cdm/2 so I'm ok with that. I usually display a white background and compare it to the OSD white on the extended menu to see the adjustment made to white in terms of luminance and temperature. Right now if there is any panel blocking happening it's minimal.

Either way this has now become my main screen and I have ZERO doubts about making it so. I love my 3008WFP but I'm kinda sick of being in wide gamut HELL ;) without a good sRGB mode.

I stayed with the older version of SV that shipped with my monitor because I prefer to calibrate brightness manually (you adjust the brightness with the control to a level you like, not to a numeric value) as it maximizes contrast.

Using the newer SV didn't allow me to do this. Also when I do this, I choose my brightness level at the manual stage, I choose the level, then let the monitor stabilize for 20 minutes before finishing the calibration. Because if you calibrate for a low brightness level, it will first turning the panel up to max which seems to heat the CCFL and make them brighter, so you need time to stabilize at a lower level, or levels will be changing throughout the rest of the calibration.
 

jam2011

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10e,

In the Dell U2412 forum, you sort of compared the NEC 2490WUXi2 with the Dell when you first got the U2412. Then later you said that you loved the Nec for "different reasons." Could you provide a quick summary of your thoughts between these two monitors? I'm primarily interested in updating my current TN panel for photo editing purposes, but like most, I spend a lot of time on the internet. I don't game at all, so response time isn't important to me.
 

wasserkool

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10e,

In the Dell U2412 forum, you sort of compared the NEC 2490WUXi2 with the Dell when you first got the U2412. Then later you said that you loved the Nec for "different reasons." Could you provide a quick summary of your thoughts between these two monitors? I'm primarily interested in updating my current TN panel for photo editing purposes, but like most, I spend a lot of time on the internet. I don't game at all, so response time isn't important to me.

The NECs supports hardware calibration to ensure accurate colors, gamma curves etc. Plus they have tons of proprietary NEC image enhancing technologies such as colorcomp to ensure even brightness and color across the screen.

The Dell U2412 does not have any of that.
 

10e

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The NECs supports hardware calibration to ensure accurate colors, gamma curves etc. Plus they have tons of proprietary NEC image enhancing technologies such as colorcomp to ensure even brightness and color across the screen.

The Dell U2412 does not have any of that.

Great summary wasserkool. That's exactly it.
 

jam2011

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Thanks for the summary. But in practical terms, when the two monitors are side by side, is there a noticeable difference in quality with the NEC, compared to the U2412?
 

alienate

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Thanks for the summary. But in practical terms, when the two monitors are side by side, is there a noticeable difference in quality with the NEC, compared to the U2412?

The U2412 is a 6 bit e-ips panel and the NEC is a legitimate 8 bit panel. Even without the fine tuning color options the NEC is going to look sharper and more vibrant.
 

jam2011

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Alienate,

I believe you are right. However I was hoping that since 10e has both monitors, he would chime in his thoughts between the two.
 

wasserkool

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I have the Dell 2209WA e-IPS panel and I believe it is an 8 bit native panel and when it is placed side by side with my NEC 3090 which an much older 8 bit H-IPS panel the NEC simply blows it out of the water in every single image quality aspect - including ghosting and response time. When I place the poor dell 2209WA with my 2011 NEC PA301W it just look pale in comparison....
 

Snowdog

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The U2412 is a 6 bit e-ips panel and the NEC is a legitimate 8 bit panel. Even without the fine tuning color options the NEC is going to look sharper and more vibrant.

Again it isn't 6bit. It is 8 bit from 64 voltage levels + FRC. How it is done is largely irrelevant. Have you ever heard of DLP projectors/RPTVs? Laser TV?? By this logic they are 1 bit. :rolleyes: Want to claim Laser TV is lacking in Vibrancy because it is 1 bit?

Now even if it were actually of lesser bit depth, it would NOT affect sharpness or vibrancy. It would affect subtle gradations leading to banding.

Technique is irrelevant, execution is everything. 10e has already reported that there are no visible side effects from FRC, which is the only real concern.
 
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The native bit depth of the panel is quite "transparent" for the user. It is nearly impossible to see a difference between native 8bit and 10bit panels (btw: The few 10bit versions (e.g. LG W2420R, HP LP2480zx, Quato IP 240ex LECD) also use FRC). Important is the electronic before to avoid a loss of tonal values during transformation of the signal. Similar is true for the 6bit panels: I haven't seen considerable stronger temporal artefacts on e-IPS and C-PVA panels - and no visible banding if paired with a LUT >8bit.

Comparing the new DELL with the NEC 2490 is not reasonable: The big difference results not from 6bit vs. 8bit panel but from the extensive electronic (paired with an OSD that allows to completely benefit from it), potential hardware calibration, compensation function for better homogeneity and very accurate factory calibration.

Best regards

Denis
 
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10e

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I have the Dell 2209WA e-IPS panel and I believe it is an 8 bit native panel and when it is placed side by side with my NEC 3090 which an much older 8 bit H-IPS panel the NEC simply blows it out of the water in every single image quality aspect - including ghosting and response time. When I place the poor dell 2209WA with my 2011 NEC PA301W it just look pale in comparison....

Ghosting and response time should be far better on the 2209WA. These panels are legendary for low input lag and very fast response time. Outside of that, the 30" monitors should absolutely be better. Yes the 2209WA is a native 8-bit panel.

The native bit depth of the panel is quite "transparent" for the user. It is nearly impossible to see a difference between native 8bit and 10bit panels (btw: The few 10bit versions (e.g. LG W2420R, HP LP2480zx, Quato IP 240ex LECD) also use FRC). Important is the electronic before to avoid a loss of tonal values during transformation of the signal. Similar is true for the 6bit panels: I haven't seen considerable stronger temporal artefacts on e-IPS and C-PVA panels - and no visible banding if paired with a LUT >8bit.

Comparing the new DELL with the NEC 2490 is not reasonable: The big difference results not from 6bit vs. 8bit panel but from the extensive electronic (paired with an OSD that allows to completely benefit from it), potential hardware calibration, compensation function for better homogeneity and very accurate factory calibration.

Best regards

Denis

Agreed. Since 2008, FRC has become a fairly invisible mechanism to compensate for lack of RGB voltage/"bit" levels. The days of weird dithered moving or static patterns are over. This is why I don't care all that much whether 6-bit+FRC, true 8-bit, 8-bit+FRC. For me 8-bit+FRC is only sensible for wide gamut screens.

The only similarities are that both are sRGB gamut, IPS 24" panels. The Dell only shows advantage in contrast ratio/black level and ability to truly regulate backlight without digital panel blocking. While it has almost no input lag, it also has a fairly rudimentary scaler.

The NEC has many more features. Overdrive on/off, internal calibration to different targets, color temperatures, gamma, awesome scaling, color comp (uniformity compensation) and can be used with video sources properly.

NEC makes some great software to manage these features like SpectraView and MultiProfiler.

They are very different monitors for very different targets. Basically between the two I have everything I need. sRGB great gaming screen > Dell, sRGB and color accurate everything else screen > NEC.

I just meant that they complement each other perfectly for my purposes.
 

jam2011

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Ghosting and response time should be far better on the 2209WA. These panels are legendary for low input lag and very fast response time. Outside of that, the 30" monitors should absolutely be better. Yes the 2209WA is a native 8-bit panel.



Agreed. Since 2008, FRC has become a fairly invisible mechanism to compensate for lack of RGB voltage/"bit" levels. The days of weird dithered moving or static patterns are over. This is why I don't care all that much whether 6-bit+FRC, true 8-bit, 8-bit+FRC. For me 8-bit+FRC is only sensible for wide gamut screens.

The only similarities are that both are sRGB gamut, IPS 24" panels. The Dell only shows advantage in contrast ratio/black level and ability to truly regulate backlight without digital panel blocking. While it has almost no input lag, it also has a fairly rudimentary scaler.

The NEC has many more features. Overdrive on/off, internal calibration to different targets, color temperatures, gamma, awesome scaling, color comp (uniformity compensation) and can be used with video sources properly.

NEC makes some great software to manage these features like SpectraView and MultiProfiler.

They are very different monitors for very different targets. Basically between the two I have everything I need. sRGB great gaming screen > Dell, sRGB and color accurate everything else screen > NEC.

I just meant that they complement each other perfectly for my purposes.
10e, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I'm not very technical though when it comes to this stuff. However, I am very practical, and all of the technical stuff doesn't really matter to me if I can't see the difference in picture quality. Bottom line is, I'm just looking for the best picture quality I can buy in the $400 - $700 range. I have no problem paying more for quality if I can see the difference. In fact, I've even considered the NEC PA241W, but that's a lot of money and I wonder if I'll really see a $400 difference between that monitor and the LCD2490WUXi2.

Anyway, left me ask my original question this way. When you walk into the room and see the two calibrated monitors side by side, do you think, "The NEC 2490 clearly has a better picture than the U2412" or do you think, "The U2412 is very close in picture quality and I could be very happy with the U2412 if that was the only monitor I had?"

10e, I'm very curious to here your answer because you posted a picture of the two side by side in the other thread and in that picture the NEC appeared darker to me. But that may simply be due to my current monitor and perhaps if I saw them both in person, I may have a different opinion.

Anyway, thanks for your help. Asking questions in a forum like this is the only way some of us can make an educated decision short of buying two monitors and returning one of them.
 

wasserkool

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10e, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I'm not very technical though when it comes to this stuff. However, I am very practical, and all of the technical stuff doesn't really matter to me if I can't see the difference in picture quality. Bottom line is, I'm just looking for the best picture quality I can buy in the $400 - $700 range. I have no problem paying more for quality if I can see the difference. In fact, I've even considered the NEC PA241W, but that's a lot of money and I wonder if I'll really see a $400 difference between that monitor and the LCD2490WUXi2.

Anyway, left me ask my original question this way. When you walk into the room and see the two calibrated monitors side by side, do you think, "The NEC 2490 clearly has a better picture than the U2412" or do you think, "The U2412 is very close in picture quality and I could be very happy with the U2412 if that was the only monitor I had?"

10e, I'm very curious to here your answer because you posted a picture of the two side by side in the other thread and in that picture the NEC appeared darker to me. But that may simply be due to my current monitor and perhaps if I saw them both in person, I may have a different opinion.

Anyway, thanks for your help. Asking questions in a forum like this is the only way some of us can make an educated decision short of buying two monitors and returning one of them.

I am very confident to say that a properly calibrated NEC 2490 will look better than the Dell U2412 due to the fact that NEC put in lots of dedicated ASIC hardware to ensure optimal image reproduction (Colorcomp etc). Plus the 2490 has a A-TW polarizer which enables it to produce superior black levels without all the gimmick dynamic contrast ratio BS.
 

Snowdog

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Anyway, left me ask my original question this way. When you walk into the room and see the two calibrated monitors side by side, do you think, "The NEC 2490 clearly has a better picture than the U2412" or do you think, "The U2412 is very close in picture quality and I could be very happy with the U2412 if that was the only monitor I had?"

Some people expect to be wowed when they pay more money, but in reality the differences are simply not that great. For a while I had TN screen next to my NEC2490, and once I matched the white balance, there really was no obvious difference in picture quality except for the poor viewing angles on the TN screen.

In this case (IPS vs IPS) with the screens calibrated, it would be a rare individual who could tell the difference on image quality alone.

IMO, save your money and go with the U2412.
 

jam2011

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Wasserkool - Unfortunately, the new 2490 doesn't have the A-TW polarizer, like the old one.

Snowdog - Good point. I actually liked my current TN panel (Samsung 225BW) until recently when the viewing angles started driving me crazy.
 

10e

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I am very confident to say that a properly calibrated NEC 2490 will look better than the Dell U2412 due to the fact that NEC put in lots of dedicated ASIC hardware to ensure optimal image reproduction (Colorcomp etc). Plus the 2490 has a A-TW polarizer which enables it to produce superior black levels without all the gimmick dynamic contrast ratio BS.

Mine doesn't have the A-TW and I still love it. I have the WUXi2. I also have a LCD2690WUXI-BK that is nearly perfect except for wide gamut which alternatively, does have it.

Alternatively I got it brand new for around half the price the original WUXI was, so I'm still quite happy with it.

I'd agree with what SnowDog says above: Save the money and go for the Dell

The NEC is a great screen with many nice-to-haves, but the Dell is a solid performer and a better gaming screen. The NEC is more for those people who want a color critical screen that can also be re-configured to different color temperatures and gamma targets, etc.... If you have no use for these features, go for the Dell.
 

jam2011

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Thanks for the feedback.

I wouldn't say I need an absolutely color critical screen, however my main purpose for upgrading my monitor is for photo editing, so color accuracy is important. I suspect though that either the Dell or the NEC will be better than my current monitor.
 

jam2011

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10e,

One more question, how does the Anti-glare coating on the NEC compare to the U2412?
 

10e

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10e,

One more question, how does the Anti-glare coating on the NEC compare to the U2412?

Both are fairly good. I don't have a problem with either and I don't like excessive anti-glare coating. Not a lot of sparkle on either.
 

alienate

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Mine doesn't have the A-TW and I still love it. I have the WUXi2. I also have a LCD2690WUXI-BK that is nearly perfect except for wide gamut which alternatively, does have it.

Alternatively I got it brand new for around half the price the original WUXI was, so I'm still quite happy with it.

I'd agree with what SnowDog says above: Save the money and go for the Dell

The NEC is a great screen with many nice-to-haves, but the Dell is a solid performer and a better gaming screen. The NEC is more for those people who want a color critical screen that can also be re-configured to different color temperatures and gamma targets, etc.... If you have no use for these features, go for the Dell.

Its also for people who don't want to play panel lottery and try to get one with no backlight bleed and, although rarer these days, dead pixels. Yeah you can return them at no cost but such a freakin hassle.
 

10e

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Its also for people who don't want to play panel lottery and try to get one with no backlight bleed and, although rarer these days, dead pixels. Yeah you can return them at no cost but such a freakin hassle.

The NECs are built very well. Their customer service in North America, and I'll assume elsewhere, is legendary. Back in 2008, my original LCD2690WUXI-BK arrived with a matrix of stuck green pixels. NEC Canada had zero in stock, but two days later I received a brand new unit from Chicago which was, and still is perfect.
 

ashp

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Earlier today I broke down and ordered a 2490wuxi2 to sit next to my 2490wuxi, instead of this 19" gateway TN panel I've been using for a second monitor. Ignoring the difference in quality (couldn't get a good price on a 2490wuxi refurb), I realize that calibrating them is going to be difficult to ensure the colors match without a good colorimeter.

I don't do anything professional. About as fancy as I get is playing games, watching movies, and looking at websites when I should be doing real work. I'm mostly interested in making sure the colors match across the two screens, rather than having them exactly correct. What is the -cheapest- calibration kit/technique I could use to get this right? I was going to pre-order a colorhug (http://www.hughski.com/index.html) but they aren't shipping for some 4 months or so. I just hate the idea of spending hundreds (or even $100) to calibrate colors when it's really just an idle luxury.
 

Philz

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Get a spyder color calibrator, if not mistaken most can do multiple screens. I have an 3 elite that I've used to get my 3 LG236v's when I was using them to match each other.

Notes:
Calibrate your "main one" remember your brightness level. Then do the studio match and go threw them but use same target brightness level. and bam your good :)
 

ashp

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Get a spyder color calibrator, if not mistaken most can do multiple screens. I have an 3 elite that I've used to get my 3 LG236v's when I was using them to match each other.

Notes:
Calibrate your "main one" remember your brightness level. Then do the studio match and go threw them but use same target brightness level. and bam your good :)

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I've never done this before. I assume I want to calibrate it in hardware and I see on NEC's site they have SpectraView II. Can other calibrators write to the monitor directly in the same way that spectraview can? I'm baffled by the whole field of color management, to be honest. :)
 

tk-don

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Sorry if this is a stupid question but I've never done this before. I assume I want to calibrate it in hardware and I see on NEC's site they have SpectraView II. Can other calibrators write to the monitor directly in the same way that spectraview can? I'm baffled by the whole field of color management, to be honest. :)
Yes, a few can - but you'll still need the SpectraView II software to be able to communicate with the monitor.
Since I'm in Europe, I had much trouble in obtaining SVII, but I managed to get a relative in the US to buy it and forward it. Since I didn't want to risk a colorimeter to go bad or turn up damaged in the mail, I bought a DTP94 locally - bundled with the Quato icolor display 3 (and sold by Quato). Works nicely with the NEC SVII.
I selected the DTP94 because of it's precision for sRGB and resistance to aging.
The SVII software also supports the Spyder3 (don't know about elite), Spyder2, ColorMunki, i1D1, i1D2, i1D3 and i1Pro
 

ashp

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Yes, a few can - but you'll still need the SpectraView II software to be able to communicate with the monitor.
Since I'm in Europe, I had much trouble in obtaining SVII, but I managed to get a relative in the US to buy it and forward it. Since I didn't want to risk a colorimeter to go bad or turn up damaged in the mail, I bought a DTP94 locally - bundled with the Quato icolor display 3 (and sold by Quato). Works nicely with the NEC SVII.
I selected the DTP94 because of it's precision for sRGB and resistance to aging.
The SVII software also supports the Spyder3 (don't know about elite), Spyder2, ColorMunki, i1D1, i1D2, i1D3 and i1Pro

As I don't own any of those would it make sense to just buy the pack on their site? http://www.necdisplay.com/p/SVII-PRO-KIT would be the thing. It's more than I want to spend, but I assume there are significant advantages to writing right to the monitor rather than relying on the videocard/OS to make the adjustments?

Can anyone comment on how big a difference that makes?
 

tk-don

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Well, yes it would make sense. The Pro kit offers an excellent colorimeter, but maybe you will be able to buy the older one with the I1D2 for much cheaper - even though the colorimeter might not be as good, but the differences will mostly be with regards to precision with wider gamut displays than the the WUXi/WUXi2.

By calibrating the video card look-up tables, you'll limit the amount of colors that can be produced by the video card. 8 bit per color is then not possible to achieve any longer and this will result in visible banding. By calibrating the LUT of the monitor, you have a 4096 entry table per color, from which the panel can utilize 256 of these at once - when calibrating, the SVII software decides on which entries in the LUT the 256 values should map to. In the hardware monitor calibration process, there's more flexibility to achieve very small corrections of the image, whereas by "limiting" the video card output will result in visible banding.

The difference will be most apparent to grey scale images and the achievable precision of the grey scale in general.
The WUXi1/2 already looks great out of the box, but with aging of the backlight, calibration will make a difference.
 

xorbe

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Yeah, I think the monitor has a 12-bit LUT. It's awesome (I have the SV kitted 2490). No messing around with Windows or Linux, it just works after being calibrated.
 

10e

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Sorry if this is a stupid question but I've never done this before. I assume I want to calibrate it in hardware and I see on NEC's site they have SpectraView II. Can other calibrators write to the monitor directly in the same way that spectraview can? I'm baffled by the whole field of color management, to be honest. :)

Yes, Basiccolor 5, Lacie Blue Eye Pro 4.55 and later, and SpectraView II. I recommend SpectraView the most, as it's made especially for these screens.

Europe gets a different Spectraview, called SpectraView Profiler, which is BasicColor Display (4 or 5) re-branded.

The SpectraView Pro kit is excellent. The Eye One Display Pro (SpectraSensor as it's called here) is a very good calibration unit and has long life filters. The older sensors have organic filters which can be susceptible to change with humidity and age, and can throw the colorimter hardware unit off after time. The SpectraSensor has synthetic/inorganic filters that don't age nearly as fast.

Also SpectraView II constantly gets updated to include new monitors, sensors and features.
 

Forceman

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Yes, Basiccolor 5, Lacie Blue Eye Pro 4.55 and later, and SpectraView II. I recommend SpectraView the most, as it's made especially for these screens.

Do you know off-hand if Basiccolor 4.xx can do it as well? I have access to that through work.
 

10e

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Do you know off-hand if Basiccolor 4.xx can do it as well? I have access to that through work.

Theoretically it should, as it is SpectraView Profiler in Europe, but I never was able to get it to work with any of my NEC screens to do hardware calibration.. I have used every version of 4.1 they have put out.
 

Philz

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Just picked up two refurbs (I bought out there stock from the looks of it) on monday!

Off hand, best two monitors I've ever had, neither screen has any issue whatsoever! Furthermore the lifespan on both was.... 4.5 & 2 hours (still had wrapping on panel)!

I'm one extremely happy camper, just using spectra view to calibrate them as we speak.

What luminance value are you guys using? 120 I've always felt is to low but is what so many "purists" use... To me cater towards target market and most people have there monitors on "default" of 300+ after all!?!
 
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ashp

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Just picked up two refurbs (I bought out there stock from the looks of it) on monday!

Off hand, best two monitors I've ever had, neither screen has any issue whatsoever! Furthermore the lifespan on both was.... 4.5 & 2 hours (still had wrapping on panel)!

I'm one extremely happy camper, just using spectra view to calibrate them as we speak.

What luminance value are you guys using? 120 I've always felt is to low but is what so many "purists" use... To me cater towards target market and most people have there monitors on "default" of 300+ after all!?!

I have a worse story - my 2490wuxi2 refurb has a crack in the top left snap on bezel bit around the screen (it was partially knocked off, pushed it back into place). Of way more concern is that the two screens look NOTHING alike in terms of color.

I am wondering if it's possible to read the LUT tables somehow? They must be calibrated so completely differently. I don't own a calibrator but I'd like to try to make them close so even if they aren't accurate they are wrong in the same way (if that makes sense).

Is there any way to do this? I'm SO disappointed, it looks awful.

This is probably a hopeless way to demonstrate it but I split a picture across the monitors and took a photo - you can see how wildly different the colors are somewhat!

(To me the new one looks wrong, way way way too blueish)

http://imgur.com/Z82t2
This may show it better, flash off! http://i.imgur.com/z3RYk.jpg
 
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TroyX

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i own the original 2490 wuxi and i was wondering how much are they worth today if i wanted to sell mine.
 

ashp

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I also posted in the spectraview alternative thread but it probably belongs here too. I can tell I am just going to have to bite the bullet and calibrate. Which is the best calibrator for $250 and under?

My choices seem to be:

Spyder4Pro
SpectraSensor Pro Color Calibration Sensor
ColorMunki Display
i1Display Pro

Weirdly the i1Display Pro seems to be $250 whereas the SpectraSensor is $200 but they seem to be the same thing.

Edit: One big benefit to the i1Display Pro is I can prime ship it from Amazon. To get the next day shipping from NEC costs me as much as just stepping up to the i1Display Pro in the first place.
 
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xorbe

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If you're rocking 2 screens and want them to look similar, you're going to have to calibrate ... I think that's quite expected. Did you try the advanced menu with native flat out on both for starter comparison?
 

10e

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i own the original 2490 wuxi and i was wondering how much are they worth today if i wanted to sell mine.

$500 - 600 or slightly more is not uncommon if it doesn't have a ton of hours on it.

I also posted in the spectraview alternative thread but it probably belongs here too. I can tell I am just going to have to bite the bullet and calibrate. Which is the best calibrator for $250 and under?

My choices seem to be:

Spyder4Pro
SpectraSensor Pro Color Calibration Sensor
ColorMunki Display
i1Display Pro

Weirdly the i1Display Pro seems to be $250 whereas the SpectraSensor is $200 but they seem to be the same thing.

Edit: One big benefit to the i1Display Pro is I can prime ship it from Amazon. To get the next day shipping from NEC costs me as much as just stepping up to the i1Display Pro in the first place.

They are the same thing. I use my I1Display Pro with the latest Spectraview II. You also need Spectraview II to calibrate the screen's LUTs.

There still may be some small differences after calibration but they should be quite close.
 

ashp

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16
If you're rocking 2 screens and want them to look similar, you're going to have to calibrate ... I think that's quite expected. Did you try the advanced menu with native flat out on both for starter comparison?

I did not try the advanced menu (or know about it!) I guess I have some reading to do. My calibrator should be in the mail by now so it's not so bad either way. :)
 

xorbe

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
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I did not try the advanced menu (or know about it!) I guess I have some reading to do. My calibrator should be in the mail by now so it's not so bad either way. :)

iirc, hold down the input button while turning the monitor on. Then, pull up the menu as usual, but there's many tabs now.
 
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