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Nearfield monitors vs studio grade headphones
- Thread starter dinlee23
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dollar for dollar isn't a fair comparison IMO when talking monitors and headphones. Some $300 headphones will have you in the mid/upper-mid range of headphones. $300 for a pair monitors will have you in the bottom feeders of the category.
Maybe IEM's vs headphones - but monitors/speakers are a different ballgame.
Maybe IEM's vs headphones - but monitors/speakers are a different ballgame.
jakeshields
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- Jul 26, 2010
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The value curves are different. Headphones have a steeper value per dollar curve but it will plateau off quickly, whereas speakers are a more gentle quality curve and it will continue upward for a quite a while. This is because headphones are right next to your ears and don't have to fight the room--part of the cost you have to consider for a high-end speaker setup is room treatments, which can be very costly, but on the other side of the equation, by it's nature, headphones can't give you a 3D soundstage since the two signals (left/right) will never intersect--you are getting closer to a dual-mono effect.
They are good at different things. You can't beat a good headphone for its ability to reveal detail. Well, maybe you can on extremely high end speakers in a good room, but that's it. They just reveal detail in audio that is amazing. Of course they need to be good as well, but still. I keep headphones around for that, to check against when I mix something.
However their imaging sucks, everything is stuck inside your head, you don't get a nice, full, soundfield like you do with speakers. Your perspective of where things are in a mix gets really distorted on headphones.
In general, you can spend less on headphones and get something that is higher up the ladder, since they are smaller and cheaper to build. $200-300 is "expensive" for headphones but you are talking regular consumer level speakers for that price.
I did use headphones primarily for years since I couldn't really afford good speakers. However now, since I have the option, good speakers are what I use.
However their imaging sucks, everything is stuck inside your head, you don't get a nice, full, soundfield like you do with speakers. Your perspective of where things are in a mix gets really distorted on headphones.
In general, you can spend less on headphones and get something that is higher up the ladder, since they are smaller and cheaper to build. $200-300 is "expensive" for headphones but you are talking regular consumer level speakers for that price.
I did use headphones primarily for years since I couldn't really afford good speakers. However now, since I have the option, good speakers are what I use.
Headphones will always win, with headphones there is no room correction or noises of equipment. Sure you can buy a nice pair of 100,000 speakers, but now you have to worry about the amplifier that you connect them to, then the room, size and position of the speakers and your self in the room, then worry about the source it's coming from etc etc SO much to list.
With head phones you worry about the quality of the headphones and source.
With head phones you worry about the quality of the headphones and source.
lol
Pretty true fact. Headphones have less variables than room would.
Yes but that isn't the only problem. As I said, imaging is a big issue. Sound doesn't normally reside only in your head and with headphones it does. Also the soundstage doesn't rotate with your head, as it does with headphones, which sounds wrong. We are used to the small movements of our heads producing audio cues for us. This can, in theory, be mitigated with a good head tracking HRTF system but such things are exceedingly expensive, not to mention that the HRTF technology just isn't there at this point.
Headphones also have trouble with low frequencies. Not only is it difficult to get a driver to produce them, but the way we perceive them changes. Circumaural headphones do a better job than IEMs, but your need to be able to actually feel the bass waves with more of your body for them to truly sound right.
I've heard a lot of both, including rather good speakers and headphones, and I prefer good speakers if the money is there. I'm not saying my way is The One True Way(tm) but to try and present headphones as the only superior way is false as well.
I have yet to find a pair of headphones and HRTF system that can compete with my speakers in terms of soundstage and imaging. While that isn't the only thing that matters, it is something that is important.
Im bias, i like both way's. Personally i build all my amplifiers ( class a ) and build and designed my own speakers. 2500$ later and i have a VERY nice HIGH efficeant pair of speakers, with ribbon tweeters. 4 amplifiers in bi-amp mode. 1 stereo amplifier per speakers, running with a passive volume pot.
Simple clean, out of the cd player into the passive volume pot then into a amplifier per speaker. Can't get any better than that.
Simple clean, out of the cd player into the passive volume pot then into a amplifier per speaker. Can't get any better than that.
jakeshields
Weaksauce
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2010
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Once you hit a certain dollar range I'm really curious how headphones justify their cost, because their performance goals are fairly easy to meet, IMO.
With speakers you have design drivers around power compression--magnet structure, the spider, driver chambers--THD under SPL, frequency response characteristics from 0 - 75 degrees, diffraction/reflection performance, time alignment, cabinet resonance, etc. Of course, there is the quality and materials, driver integration, crossovers, damping and bracing of the cabinet, the finish, etc. Basically you can keep dumping in resources to improve performance because there are so many variables. In addition shipping costs are obscene compared to headphones. I really am curious about where is the money going towards for example those $10K sennheiser headphones. What variables are they really putting in those extra resources, or is it 90% markup compared to say, the Sennheiser HD800?
With speakers you have design drivers around power compression--magnet structure, the spider, driver chambers--THD under SPL, frequency response characteristics from 0 - 75 degrees, diffraction/reflection performance, time alignment, cabinet resonance, etc. Of course, there is the quality and materials, driver integration, crossovers, damping and bracing of the cabinet, the finish, etc. Basically you can keep dumping in resources to improve performance because there are so many variables. In addition shipping costs are obscene compared to headphones. I really am curious about where is the money going towards for example those $10K sennheiser headphones. What variables are they really putting in those extra resources, or is it 90% markup compared to say, the Sennheiser HD800?
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All these have to be concidered when building a nice speaker too. I usually tell people, if the speaker is heavy, its built well. If the speaker can be knocked on and it sounds hollow, DON'T buy it. A good speaker should sound VERY solid and deep when knocking on it.
Mine are HEAVY, built with a CNC machine, and use a piece of 150$ wood, its about 12 layers, they use it in very expensive cabinet making for cruise ships.
I use passive crossovers, one per amplifier.
you said "always win"
ill take a modest 2ch stereo setup in a decent sized room w/ treatments over any headphone setup.
you cannot substitute reverb/room liveliness with headphones.
and how much is mosdest setup cost ?
I can buy a VERY nice set of headphones and build my own class a amplifier to run the head phones, with all the dale matched resistors and all the high end caps etc etc for alot lesss than a decent 2 channel amplifier on the market these days.
Personally, i haven't boughten a amplifier in 12 years. LOL most are repair's i get for free then give them away. Right now im still using my 20 year old Yamaha rxv980 that i got for free, and fixed. The other amps i have are my class a amplifiers that i run x 4.
Here are my speakers, with teh ribbon's on top taking a few months to break in.
Amplifier's x 4
Headphones if you share the space with other people (i.e. an apartment or roommates/family), speakers if you can set up a room decently to take advantage of them (have enough space for correct positioning, room treatments). A nice speaker set up will have a much nicer soundstage and bass, that's for sure.
However, since my current living situation prevents me from having a decent room to set up speakers, I'm using headphones almost exclusively.
However, since my current living situation prevents me from having a decent room to set up speakers, I'm using headphones almost exclusively.
Are those Fountek NeoCD 3.0 ribbons?
I still have a pair of unused LCY 130's just sitting in my closet... I keep forgetting to sell them.
It's the RAAL ribbons that you really want - I had those as well (140-15D, amorphous core), and they were easily the best of them.
I was once addicted to this hobby - I assume you're at Diyaudio and some other forums. I recognize those Aleph boards
Edit: What models are the other drivers? The mids look like the Davis-branded Kevlar mids... Zaph reviewed them, but I think he received a damaged pair so it didn't test well at all.
I still have a pair of unused LCY 130's just sitting in my closet... I keep forgetting to sell them.
It's the RAAL ribbons that you really want - I had those as well (140-15D, amorphous core), and they were easily the best of them.
I was once addicted to this hobby - I assume you're at Diyaudio and some other forums. I recognize those Aleph boards
Edit: What models are the other drivers? The mids look like the Davis-branded Kevlar mids... Zaph reviewed them, but I think he received a damaged pair so it didn't test well at all.
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Are those Fountek NeoCD 3.0 ribbons?
I still have a pair of unused LCY 130's just sitting in my closet... I keep forgetting to sell them.
It's the RAAL ribbons that you really want - I had those as well (140-15D, amorphous core), and they were easily the best of them.
I was once addicted to this hobby - I assume you're at Diyaudio and some other forums. I recognize those Aleph boards
Edit: What models are the other drivers? The mids look like the Davis-branded Kevlar mids... Zaph reviewed them, but I think he received a damaged pair so it didn't test well at all.
Davis drivers, the 6.5" version bright yellow
very nice sound very efficient. Paid about 500$ for the 2 drivers.The ribbons are Aurum Cantus G2Si Ribbon Tweeter's
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=276-400
they used to be about 350 each
now they are 75$ Been at diyaudio for about 11 years now i think..
Mackie tends to sacrifice linearity to make a more pleasing-sounding speaker. Fine if you're not using them for monitoring, otherwise not so fine.
Oh damnit... heh
Once upon a time I owned the AC G2si ribbons as well. I'm surprised I was unable to identify them.
On topic:
- I prefer loudspeakers to headphones for many of the aforementioned reasons in this thread: imaging, sense of space, etc... It also has to do with the visceral FEEL of bass impact - I've never been satisfied with the character of headphone bass.
Regardless, most of the time I use headphones out of consideration for others in the house. It's a necessity unless I'm willing to treat my small computer room - which I'm considering.
For a modest price, you can have a damned kickass headphone setup:
- UE Triple.Fi 10's - I got for $99 from that Amazon deal a while back (OK - not fair, I know)
- Maxell DHP-II headphones (I bought my most recent pair for $20 shipped) - these are damned good for the price, but they're so goddam fragile that they may just fall apart while you open the package. If you check the Amazon reviews, that is the primary complaint.
- And I'm sure we all know about the various AudioTechnica offerings, the AT clone-like JVC offerings, and the Head-Fi discussion board which will turn you on to many other options...
- Decent sound card = done. The modern cards can drive headphones quite well, but if you want more, there are certainly higher-end options all the way up to custom ESS Sabre or PCM1794 DACs (arguably the two best options available) + Class A amplification and, of course, some form of prohibitively expensive analog volume control - Of course the same options apply to loudspeakers...
Once upon a time I owned the AC G2si ribbons as well. I'm surprised I was unable to identify them.
On topic:
- I prefer loudspeakers to headphones for many of the aforementioned reasons in this thread: imaging, sense of space, etc... It also has to do with the visceral FEEL of bass impact - I've never been satisfied with the character of headphone bass.
Regardless, most of the time I use headphones out of consideration for others in the house. It's a necessity unless I'm willing to treat my small computer room - which I'm considering.
For a modest price, you can have a damned kickass headphone setup:
- UE Triple.Fi 10's - I got for $99 from that Amazon deal a while back (OK - not fair, I know)
- Maxell DHP-II headphones (I bought my most recent pair for $20 shipped) - these are damned good for the price, but they're so goddam fragile that they may just fall apart while you open the package. If you check the Amazon reviews, that is the primary complaint.
- And I'm sure we all know about the various AudioTechnica offerings, the AT clone-like JVC offerings, and the Head-Fi discussion board which will turn you on to many other options...
- Decent sound card = done. The modern cards can drive headphones quite well, but if you want more, there are certainly higher-end options all the way up to custom ESS Sabre or PCM1794 DACs (arguably the two best options available) + Class A amplification and, of course, some form of prohibitively expensive analog volume control
- Of course the same options apply to loudspeakers...