NCASE M1 picture and build general log

[Alakan]

Those sound great. At least I'm on the right track as far as planning the gpu cooling. Read somewhere that somebody said their VRM went up to 105c, which believe it or not, XFX says is okay as long as it does not go above 120c.

 

[callumbolch]

yep AMD vrm temps are a bit mental - the DD cooler does a pretty sound job from my gpuz readings

 

[David164v8]

Quick question, what is the quietest possible air cooler to be used in this case?

 

[AFD]

Quick question, what is the quietest possible air cooler to be used in this case?

Just depends on which fan you plan on running with your heatsink. For example, I found the included P14 non-PWM that ships with the Noctua C12 and C14 to be a little loud.. but their A15 PWM fan on the same heatsink is incredibly quiet imo (even when set to the fastest fan profile setting in BIOS).

 

[Reckie]

*please delete*

I managed to post in build-log instead of the carry bag thread.

 

[Alakan]

Dammit. Why did Nvidia have to release the 970 which is trading blows with the R290x.

Build is on extreme hold. Again.

The GPU in my theory builds seem to set the tone of every other component.

I'm now looking at the Asus Strix GTX 970 which is $200.00 cheaper than the XFX Black Edition R290X for almost the same performance and better energy and thermal efficiency. It has semi passive cooling. Which is what the new theme of the build will be.

Broadwell desktop chips will come out next year and I'm hoping at least one of them is thermally efficient enough to run basic desktop tasks and light gaming with the heatsink attached and the fans off, only activating once it passes a preset threshold.

Given the better energy efficiency I'm wondering if I should switch from the SX-600g PSU to the larger but more thermally efficient SX-500LG.

What do you guys think? Am I crazy to attempt to go for 0% fan output on both CPU and GPU for Desktop apps and light gaming in an M1 v1 case?

 

[JaccoW]

Dammit. Why did Nvidia have to release the 970 which is trading blows with the R290x.

Build is on extreme hold. Again.

The GPU in my theory builds seem to set the tone of every other component.

I'm now looking at the Asus Strix GTX 970 which is $200.00 cheaper than the XFX Black Edition R290X for almost the same performance and better energy and thermal efficiency. It has semi passive cooling. Which is what the new theme of the build will be.

Broadwell desktop chips will come out next year and I'm hoping at least one of them is thermally efficient enough to run basic desktop tasks and light gaming with the heatsink attached and the fans off, only activating once it passes a preset threshold.

Given the better energy efficiency I'm wondering if I should switch from the SX-600g PSU to the larger but more thermally efficient SX-500LG.

What do you guys think? Am I crazy to attempt to go for 0% fan output on both CPU and GPU for Desktop apps and light gaming in an M1 v1 case?

First: the Strix will not fit without modifying the case.

Overview of GTX970 models
(V) Gigabyte = 312/298mm x 129mm x 43mm (Might be tricky. Guru3D says it is shorter) PCB
(X) Inno3D = 300mm x 115mm (3-slot design makes it too long)
(X) Asus = 280mm x 140mm x 40mm (Too wide, requires NCase modification) PCB
(V) MSI = 269mm x 141mm x 35 (Aircooler is officially too wide but people seem to be able to fit them) PCB
(V) Palit = 247mm x 126mm
(V) Gainward = 247mm x 112mm (The Phantom does seem to have a really short PCB. 3-slot cooler though) PCB
(V) Evga = 241.3mm x 111.15mm
(V) Zotac = 224mm x 111.15mm (Only the non-OC models though)

The MSI is starting to look like a mighty fine card for watercooling though.

I think a very slow quiet fan is better than no fan, but we really cannot tell until Broadwell comes out. Who knows, maybe they do have something in the works.

Same goes for the SFX500-L. It has not even been announced yet so it could be a year until it becomes available. Personally I like the idea of this PSU though.

I have a theoretical build as well but won't be able to buy anything until I have saved some money. Which might be 4-12 months. So except for the fun of figuring out all the components I don't bother stressing over these details yet. If you have the money now, just buy what you want sell the parts if you want to upgrade later.

 

[Bosom]

I got my ncase Wednesday and got it together today. I haven't done the whole h220 loop yet but I will soon.

 

[Phuncz]

Same goes for the SFX500-L. It has not even been announced yet so it could be a year until it becomes available. Personally I like the idea of this PSU though.

Tony Ou chimed in at the SX500-LG thread saying they are targetting launch (Tony says "delivered") at late November/December this year, I expect it to be available around February/March 2015.

Nice list on the GPU's, BTW ! If possible, you should collect people's quotes or pictures on the cards fitting. To make sure no one misunderstands which model fits and doesn't.

 

[JaccoW]

Tony Ou chimed in at the SX500-LG thread saying they are targetting launch (Tony says "delivered") at late November/December this year, I expect it to be available around February/March 2015.

Nice list on the GPU's, BTW ! If possible, you should collect people's quotes or pictures on the cards fitting. To make sure no one misunderstands which model fits and doesn't.

Ah thanks for clearing that up.

I was thinking of just putting everything in a table. I'll work on it after the weekend. I have only a few hours left to finish a thesis.

 

[Alakan]

Hey JaccoW.

callumbolch confirmed on page 14 that the XFX R9 290 Double D fits just fine without modding the side panel. That card's width, according to XFX's website, is 5.63 inches.

The Asus Strix GTX 970 actually has a smaller width based on the manufacturer at 5.5 inches. Which is why I think it can still fit.

The truth is almost nobody has actually tried to fit any of these new cards yet. And manufacturers aren't always right with their spec sheet dimensions.

 

[robotscantsurf]

I know this is a long shot, but is anyone willing to part ways with the side mount bracket for mounting a h220, etc?

 

[domp]

After 2 days of continuous work, I finally finished building my Ncase M1: http://imgur.com/a/jcMbd)

I'll post a parts list and more pictures tomorrow if anyone is interested.

 

[Kill-Jack]

Just got my Ncase on Tuesday. I know mostly what im going to get but just had a few questions.

The Build:
Mobo: Asus Maximum VII Impact
CPU: Intel 4790K
Cooler: Thermalright AXP-100
PSU: Silverstone SX600-G 600W
GPU: GTX 980 or 970
SSD: Still Determining


Also domp I was wondering what Optical drive you used. Still trying to figure out what would be a good optical drive because there really isnt an eject button?

 

[WiSK]

Domp!

Fantastic clean build, good organisation and I like that pastel colour too!

Please post parts

 

[Phuncz]

Yes excellent build ! I'm curious what components are inside !

 

[dnoiz]

Indeed. Part list please!

What pump/res combo is that?

 

[domp]

Project Eiswasser

Gallery Link​

The Goal: A watercooled Hackintosh as small and silent as possible.

Parts:
Case: NCASE M1 V2 Black with ODD slot
PSU: Silverstone SX600-G
Mainboard: Gigabyte Z87N Wifi
CPU: i7 4790k
GPU: Zotac GTX 760 4GB
RAM: 16GB Crucial Ballistix Sport
SSD: Samsung Evo 1TB
HDD: HGST Travelstar 1TB
Optical Drive: Silverstone SOB02

CPU Waterblock: EK Supremacy EVO Nickel Clean CSQ
GPU Waterblock: EK-FC670 GTX Acetal + Nickel CSQ with Backplate

Pump: Laing DDC 3.25 12V 18W 3 Pin
Pump Top + Reservoir: Watercool DDC-Tank LT
Pump Decoupling: Shoggy Sandwich V2
Pump Speed Controller: Aquacomputer Poweradjust 3

Radiator: XSPC EX240
Radiator Fans: 2x Noiseblocker Blacksilent Pro PLPS

Soft Tubing: Masterkleer PVC 11/8mm
Hard Tubing: EK Water Blocks EK-HD Tube 12/10mm
Coolant: EK-Ekoolant Pastel Blue Concentrate
Fittings: All Bitspower (Can make a list if requested)

Notes:
- The Foam of the Shoggy Sandwich doesn’t fit, that’s why I only used the 2 Rubber Pads of it.
- On the back of the case, I had to swap the Ncase Sign with the psu extension to make the radiator fit.
- Also, the radiator needs to be installed onto the radiator bracket with an offset to the left, else it collides with the front drive stack and doesn’t fit.
- The poweradjust is really mandatory for anyone who wants a silent Pc and a DDC Pump. I was able to set the pump from ~5000 rpm (100%) to ~2800 rpm (60%).
- Currently I’m using the Mainboard to control the 2 Radiator Fans depending on the CPU temp. However, I’m going to buy a second poweradjust to set the fans depending on the water temperature.

 

[domp]

Also domp I was wondering what Optical drive you used. Still trying to figure out what would be a good optical drive because there really isnt an eject button?

You'll need a slot-in optical drive, like the Silverstone SOB02 that I used. They also sell a DVD variant of this drive, the SOD02.

 

[WiSK]

Again: very nice build Domp

I have ordered some of that pastel coolant: blue and white, I hope it mixes well.

 

[JaccoW]

Hey JaccoW.

callumbolch confirmed on page 14 that the XFX R9 290 Double D fits just fine without modding the side panel. That card's width, according to XFX's website, is 5.63 inches.

The Asus Strix GTX 970 actually has a smaller width based on the manufacturer at 5.5 inches. Which is why I think it can still fit.

The truth is almost nobody has actually tried to fit any of these new cards yet. And manufacturers aren't always right with their spec sheet dimensions.

Notting has tried the Strix. It fits, but with some disclaimers.
Because of the extra wide PCB he had to remove some parts of the case and it stills slightly bends the side panel.

@Domp: Very nice build. Lovely colouring.
Added it to my list of inspirational builds.

 

[dnoiz]

GPU Waterblock: EK-FC670 GTX Acetal + Nickel CSQ with Backplate

Thanks. I read on the net that this waterbock also fits many GTX970 cards. I like it a lot that both pump and res are inside the case, fit along side the gfx card and below the psu. Excellent inspiration!

 

[Phuncz]

Nice build, domp ! Thx for the summary !

 

[klatox]

moved to V2 thread

 

[Alakan]

Notting has tried the Strix. It fits, but with some disclaimers.
Because of the extra wide PCB he had to remove some parts of the case and it stills slightly bends the side panel.

@Domp: Very nice build. Lovely colouring.
Added it to my list of inspirational builds.

Now I'm sad.

But there might still be hope. if you could call it that. On asus's website it says the STRIX 980 is 5.3 inches wide.

I don't want to have to spend nearly 350 dollars more though. I don't need the extra performance right now.

Edit: Was just thinking about an extreme solution.

I can live with one of the side panel connectors removed. Would dremeling a millimeter or so off of the heatpipe be such a bad idea?

 

[Urelure]

Would dremeling a millimeter or so off of the heatpipe be such a bad idea?

I'm afraid it could be a really bad idea yes. They are not solid. Don't know how thick the walls are but i wouldn't go there. If they get punctured they stop working and you've ruined it.

 

[Alakan]

I understand, still disappointed. I guess I'll have to wait until the Strix 980 drops in price then. Or if another company makes a semi passive 970 that is very minimalist in colour scheme. I can't stand the MSI branding.

 

[WiSK]

I understand, still disappointed. I guess I'll have to wait until the Strix 980 drops in price then. Or if another company makes a semi passive 970 that is very minimalist in colour scheme. I can't stand the MSI branding.

Having read some reviews of the Strix, I am very impressed by Asus engineers working towards a quieter GPU. The 0% fan profile at idle is a good idea.

But I am more impressed with Asus marketing department that I've read so many comments, not just from you Alakan, of potential customers who will not consider any other 970. But while I'm quoting you, I'm just going to come out and ask it: if noise level was so crucial, why were you considering a 290X until a few days ago? The hottest loudest card around.

The Maxwell chips are low power, naturally don't run hot. Providing similar performance as 780 but with a third less power consumption. They don't need so much cooling as high end cards of the previous generation. A 970 from any manufacturer will have a reasonable noise profile compared with most other cards on the market.

Be aware also that most reviews are testing the cards in a full tower case. Situation in the M1 might not be conducive to the semi-passive design of the Strix. It's quite possible, although it's hard to be sure, that closed-shroud / blower designs will be overall quieter due to case airflow dynamics.

 

[Alakan]

I was considering a lot of things before the 970 came out.

I maintain that the XFX R9 290X Black Edition DD is still the best looking graphics card I have ever seen, ever. Other than the batshit insane VRM temps, it had solid acoustics and thermals too from the reviews I read. Was willing to make it the center of my build even if it was a power hog.

But the Asus GTX Strix 970 is 200 dollars cheaper, it literally runs silent and on average consumes half the power of the XFX R9 290X. All for roughly the same performance GPU wise.

I CANNOT ignore a deal like that.

If AMD cannot make their 390 series compete with this they are never going to have me as a customer. And I say this even though I would rather have Mantle, True Audio and FreeSync over the Nvidia technologies.

 

[Urelure]

I thought I should point out an alternative to the Noctua NH-C14: the Scythe Kabuto II. Like NH-C14, it reaches all the way to near the side bracket for better airflow.

I like this. Was dead set on making a NH-L12 work but this seems better.
How much room do you have to spare between the cooler and the top panel? I am currently waiting for an ASUS Z97I-plus which seem to have roughly the same socket placement as your P8Z77-I Deluxe (thank you spreadsheet). Didn't find proper measurements, but from pictures it might be a few millimeters higher on mine, which is why I ask.

Edit: Aah the decisions!! ..NH-C14 looks nice too. I'll never ever use the HDD bracket anyway. Twice the price though, but looks better on pictures.

 

[cowsgomoo]

I like this. Was dead set on making a NH-L12 work but this seems better.
How much room do you have to spare between the cooler and the top panel? I am currently waiting for an ASUS Z97I-plus which seem to have roughly the same socket placement as your P8Z77-I Deluxe (thank you spreadsheet). Didn't find proper measurements, but from pictures it might be a few millimeters higher on mine, which is why I ask.

Edit: Aah the decisions!! ..NH-C14 looks nice too. I'll never ever use the HDD bracket anyway. Twice the price though, but looks better on pictures.

I think it's ~6mm to the top panel. I padded it with the fan filter that came with M1 and 2x2mm fan silencers to make a closed tunnel to the side panel. I had to use longer fan screws + washers for that. Obviously there may be a minor height difference between units.

 

[Urelure]

I think it's ~6mm to the top panel. I padded it with the fan filter that came with M1 and 2x2mm fan silencers to make a closed tunnel to the side panel. I had to use longer fan screws + washers for that. Obviously there may be a minor height difference between units.

Thanks

6mm is cutting it close, but it should work. I'll do som intense googling to see if i can't work it out. Hadn't thought about the fan silencers. Been looking for some sort of ducting. Do you have any idea how much difference those actually make on temps?

 

[cowsgomoo]

Thanks

6mm is cutting it close, but it should work. I'll do som intense googling to see if i can't work it out. Hadn't thought about the fan silencers. Been looking for some sort of ducting. Do you have any idea how much difference those actually make on temps?

I didn't test it but it may just be placebo. I love my placebo.

 

[Urelure]

I didn't test it but it may just be placebo. I love my placebo.

Hehe.

I just ordered the NH-C14 due to avalability. My other parts should be just around the corner and to get the scythe cooler i would have had to wait for about 3 weeks. C14 will arrive on friday so it was worth the extra 40$ not to die from inpatience.

Your "placebo" issue should be applicable anyway though. I plan on using a 120mm fan attached to the side bracket with a filter so that I can control dust in all intakes, so I'll make some sort of ghetto shroud to test the temps.

 

[cowsgomoo]

Hehe.

I just ordered the NH-C14 due to avalability. My other parts should be just around the corner and to get the scythe cooler i would have had to wait for about 3 weeks. C14 will arrive on friday so it was worth the extra 40$ not to die from inpatience.

Your "placebo" issue should be applicable anyway though. I plan on using a 120mm fan attached to the side bracket with a filter so that I can control dust in all intakes, so I'll make some sort of ghetto shroud to test the temps.

I just realized that you were asking for the distance to the "top" panel, not the side panel. I didn't really measure that yet, but the heatsink can be oriented in other ways. The C14 should cool better than the Scythe anyway because it has more metal mass.

 

[Urelure]

I just realized that you were asking for the distance to the "top" panel, not the side panel. I didn't really measure that yet, but the heatsink can be oriented in other ways. The C14 should cool better than the Scythe anyway because it has more metal mass.

Heh, yeah. I thought the fan spacing facts were just thrown on there as good advice
Yeah i think the C14 is a solid choice, but i don't really have a good way of putting the extra cooling power to use. I've ordered the 4690K so maybe some semi-passive cooling action could work. Ironic thing is I decided on the C14 so i didn't have topostpone my build, and now my F***** SX-600-G got delayed to stock from the online store from Oct 14. to F***** Nov 6. And that's just an estimate. This power supply supply rolleyes issue is really starting to get old.

 

[craftyhack]

Hello all, can’t believe I have never joined this forum, I know it has helped my hundreds(thousands) of times over the years, I guess there was nothing I knew to help that someone hadn’t already been posted .

First, thanks to EVERYONE posting in this and the other main NCase M1 threads for all of your work and posting of your experiences, which made planning this build so much easier! Special thanks to Necere for the incredibly creative design (what I always wanted, moar power in a small, classy, and high quality case ), and to pmwalk for his great post here that was very helpful for me, especially providing that the reservoir outlet being lower than the pump inlet isn't a problem (for this setup anyway): http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040537210&postcount=110

Anyway…

I picked up a ASRock M8 as it just called out to me... it was flashy(but not too much), classy and well build; a nice piece IMO. It's purpose is a gaming machine easy to tote to LAN parties. I loaded it up with an eVGA GTX 690, 4790K, 16GB DDR3-1600C9, Samsung 840 and Crucial SSDs, Zalman CNPS 8900 CPU cooler, and a few other bits. Beautiful case IMO, but WOW was it loud when I gamed, and I hit heat throttling constantly. So I replaced the 690 GTX with an Asus GTX 780Ti Matrix Platinum(hard to find!) which helped given awesome cooling even 20 % OCed. Unboxing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHu7w1fJoyg. Even so, between the 4x70mm fans, noise and heat dissipation capability is atrocious. Even now with an upgrade to an eVGA GTW 980 SC (reference blower again) it is still horrible, hitting thermal throttling again. I knew what I was getting into, but mistakenly thought I could mod it enough to address the heat and noise concerns. After doing quite a bit of case modding, trying several difference models of 70 (x10, x15, and x25mm) fans, haven’t made much progress. I haven’t given up… but I want to spend more time gaming which I can't do while this thing is torn apart (it is the WORST CASE EVER to work in).

Part of it is probably that I am asking too much of this SFF case, as I game at 2560x1440p and love the eye candy (soon to be 3440x1440p once the LG 21:9 34UM95 Massdrop is done!), hence why I am here.

I recently found out about the wonderful NCase M1, but missed the ordering opportunities, so setup my eBay search agent to look for new auctions. After many hits asking $400 just for the case over several months, I found the perfect auction as it had many extras I would buy anyway and don’t think I could have asked for a better deal! Here is the auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121453589529. I would have liked the new 600W, but if it turned out I need it, I can flip the 450 for the 600. Here is what it came with:

• 1 x NCASE M1 V1 (Ser. No. 0874) Case
• 1 x Set of black case feet
• 1 x Set of silver case feet
• 1 x Set of V2 black panels with ODD top and without ODD top (brand new)
• 1 x Set of V1 silver panels with ODD top and without ODD top
• 1 x Silverstone ST45SF-G SFX modular PSU with original cables
• 1 x Silverstone PP05-E Flat flexible short cable set
• 1 x FrozenQ Reservoir

Other than CLC that I use on almost every normal build I have done since Corsair came out with the H100, I haven’t done custom cooling since I did a home-made version with aquarium and car parts to try to cool a Cyrix processor almost 20 yrs ago (it could overclock well, and needed OCing to run Quake ). I have wanted to do a custom loop for a while just because but I never had the need with the excellently designed cases, CPU and VGA air and CL cooling options available nowadays. But, packing all of this power into this tiny M1 looks like the perfect (but not easy) opportunity if I want great temps and quiet. In addition to the stuff I got from the auction (using the silver panels), here is what is going into the build:

• ASRock Z97E-ITX/ac (I lust after the Impact VII, but I figure for $80 I will try this ASRock first)
• Intel 4790k (and will play with a G3258 I have just because)
• Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB DDR3 1600
• eVGA GTX 980 Superclocked (reference)
• Samsung 512GB 840 Pro (more 840 Pros added as installed Steam library requires)
• Panasonic UJ-265 Blu-Ray burner

After quite a bit of research and agonizing (I *really* wanted to use the new Swiftech MCP50X, but at 1.8” high with inlet on top, dunno where it would have gone), here is what I have ordered so far from performance-pcs, going for blue/black/silver theme given the blue/black ASRock and silver case:

• EK-FC980 GTX Waterblock for Nvidia 980 GTX - Nickel/Acetal
• Alphacool NexXxoS ST30 Full Copper 240mm
• 10ft PrimoFlex Pro LRT UV Blue Tubing -3/8in. ID X 1/2in. OD
• 3x Swiftech ⅜ x ½ Lok-Seal Compression Fitting - Black
• Phobya Hose Cutter - Aluminum 3-19mm
• Swiftech 8-Way PWM Splitter Box - SATA
• PrimoChill Pure Performance Coolant (32 oz.) - UV Electric Blue
• Swiftech APOGEE Drive II CPU Waterblock with Integrated Pump
• Molex to SATA power adapter (to power Apogee II from a SATA plug from the PSU, only two peripheral outputs on 450/600 :/)
• 6 x Koolance 90 degree swivel ⅜ x ½ G 1/4 Compression Fitting – Black
• Kill Coil

The Fractal Kelvin S24 would have been great, but... 4 months and counting since launch and nowhere to be seen :/. Couldn't find a Swiftech H220 new with warranty, and read too many reviews on Newegg about the Cooler Master Glacier 240L literally catching on fire, no thanks . Hence why I picked the parts above...

For fans, I have 50ish different models laying around, so I figure I will experiment with what I have first, starting with 3x Cougar CF-V12HP for rad and front bottom(all intake), and will try to fit a Scythe 120mmx12mm on top for exhaust… and plastidip them if they work out (hoping that doesn't affect fan performance).

Am I missing anything? As my first custom loop, even after watching tons of YT vids and reading threads here, I feel like I am forgetting something.

I did consider buying the quieter fan and cable for the ST45SF-G (V2), but I think I will try it first, and if mine is as bad (loud) as some others, then I will sell it to get the 600W SFX instead.

Pics/build log and performance stats to come...

 

[WiSK]

Hi craftyhack, welcome to [H]

All looks fine I think, but I would recommend 3/8"-5/8" tubing and fittings because of the tighter bend radius than the thinner tubing.

 

[craftyhack]

Hi craftyhack, welcome to [H]

All looks fine I think, but I would recommend 3/8"-5/8" tubing and fittings because of the tighter bend radius than the thinner tubing.

Thanks! And, yep, I didn't research enough. I wondered why there were so many options with ID vs. OD, it didn't occur to me to go figure out why, it just made it a PITA to find all of the right parts (and in stock!). I don't guess that an additional 1/8" OD will make a difference WRT to running out of space or not being able to route tubing, but it definitely sounds like doubling the thickness of the tubing alls would prevent kinking, etc. in a big way. Dang it I should have posted my list before hitting submit on the order, I will see if I can get ahod of koolance.com and performance-pcs to change my orders...

Thanks for the advice!

P.S. the Massdrop on the 34UM95 hit $849.99 shipped today. For those who haven't seen it here is a review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnrxNfxRK_4. I *was* considering either a Swift or 4K to upgrade from my trusty Dell U2711, but I was hesitant given it didn't feel like it would make *that* much of a difference considering the prices (especially for a good IPS 4K and the horsepower to drive it). Then I saw this UM95, and no second thoughts, I am selling everything I don't use anymore (or as much as I will use this monitor!) to get the cash together to afford it given the Massdrop saves me $150 and adds 2 years additional warranty, looks awesome! It will match very nicely with the silver N1 I think, looks alot like an Apple cinema display...

Most of my friends think I am a dork because I get more excited about this new rig I have been slaving and saving for that I am now finally building than about the Royals in the world series (I live in KC), but a few of my friends are on the same page .

 

[WiSK]

I don't guess that an additional 1/8" OD will make a difference WRT to running out of space or not being able to route tubing,

Look for fittings that have a small outer diameter. That is more important for SFF builds than the tubing size itself. Especially angled fittings, check the size.

In my FT03-mini build I bought 6 Monsoon angled rotary fittings, without thinking about the dimensions and they were just too big to fit in the case. Waste of $60...

Koolance have an excellent rotary for SFF watercooling: NZL-LXG1-BK and even smaller: NZL-LXG2-BK. (But the combo ones rotary+compression that you listed are good too)