NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

[einmannbude]

I have ordered an EK Predator 240. Not to mount it on the side, but in the bottom. Should have taken a ruler out before. The Predator itself is not a problem. It fits on the bottom, not comfortable and I would have to decide the either use front audio or the fan hub on the Predator, but it is in there, laying strait on the bottom. But mounting the motherboard seems impossible to me at the moment. The Predator is 68mm heigh and interferes with the bottom part of the motherboard. PCB plus PCI-E port is 12mm when removing the GPU catch mechanism. When also removing the side panel holding clips, there is just 12mm clearance. So, with luck and sweat I could maybe fiddle it in, but I want to access the PCI-E port to plug a riser cable in. There would literally be no room for that. The only possibility I see is cutting a hole in the shroud of the Predator. There is 9mm between the fins and upper edge of the shroud. High probability of risking to damage the fins. Don't have a good feeling about that.

I don't see any other possibility at the moment. Do you?

 

[vpr]

I have ordered an EK Predator 240. Not to mount it on the side, but in the bottom.

No ideas to help you, but according to page 6 of the user guide they say not to mount it on the bottom - https://www.ekwb.com/shop/EK-IM/EK-IM-3831109863459.pdf

 

[CHANG3D]

I would just side mount it.

 

[csd]

Has it got the fans on the bottom? Can quite see in the pic.

I'd try to side mount it - but seems that's a tight fit also... NCASE M1 + EK Predator 240 • /r/watercooling

 

[antifocus]

There was a build that has Predator on side brackets but some trimming and cutting need to be done. I personally dont think it is a good idea to fit Predator in M1.

 

[einmannbude]

I would just side mount it.

The whole idea of the project was to make better air flow possible. With the Predator on the bottom and bottom intake fans, fresh air would travel right up to the top of the case. I wanted to mount the GPU vertically.
With the Predator on the side, hot air would blow against the motherbord and the PSU like it does now with a slim radiator. To improve temperatures I wanted to direct the air flow.
Mounting it on the side would also mean to have the pump over the reservoir, which might be an even worse idea than on the bottom. Both is forbidden by the manual.

 

[Mastaba]

Who cares if there's "hot air" blowing against the motherboard? And SFX PSU's intake is on the other side.
The main cooling is done by the waterblocks, i don't think the other motherboard components are this sensitive to the air temperature blowing on them.
If you really want to avoir this you can try setting some home made shroud to direct air from side radiator out to top case opening without passing through the motherboard (but then it won't be air cooled at all, i don't think no air is really better than hot air).
Plus it's still a lot better than having a predator that can't breath and make the whole computer overheat no matter if you set fans on the side to blow cool air on the mobo.
Mounting it on the bottom would also mean hot air blowing against the GPU then mobo/PSU.

Pump over reservoir is only a problem for filling, but once the filling is done, air bubbles are out and the loop is closed it's not a concern anymore. Also you can use some T with a tube + cap reaching the top of the case if you really want to keep the filling port above the pump.

 

[einmannbude]

Who cares if there's "hot air" blowing against the motherboard?

My main concern is not overheating the motherboard or PSU. My point was, that hot air can't go out on the other side of the case, because components are in the way. Why do you think a bottom mounted Predator could not breathe and overheat the whole computer? I am struggling with hot tubing and fittings and water temperature at the moment with a side mounted radiator. I think the warm air is stuck right now, because it is blown in horizontally and blocked by the components as said before. There are no fans supporting the air going out of the case. And with a slim radiator there is quite some space in the middle of the case left over, so the heat has a chance to go up. With a side mounted Predator there was significantly less space for air going up. Maybe it would be better anyway to orient the fans as exhaust, like this other user did. But then warm air from the bottom of the case will be used and PSU-exhausted warm air will be sucked in from above the case, so this is no ideal situation either. With a slim radiator temps were better with side intake than exhaust.
That's why I came up with the bottom mounted thick radiator. Better cooling capacity than a slim rad plus air has already the right direction and less restrictions going out of the case. With some modding you can even fit slim fans in the top to support the air flow actively. Sounds good in theory to me.

I am now thinking about not using the predator but some other 240mm normal to thick radiator. The only one suitable I found is this one
Magicool Your Watercooling Expert
It says it is just 12mm deep, which would be perfect. 31,5mm long could be of concern, though. I have now idea where to place the pump, if I would go this route. This is the big advantage of the Predator.

 

[Sebbie]

Will a radiator + fans with a total height of 49mm fit in the bottom part of the case?

 

[Deleted member 222586]

So, I finished building my air-cooled setup with the Accelero Xtreme III.
First things first: The 140mm Noise Blocker fans with 29mm height will not fit no matter what. 140mm in general do fit without bigger problems, but the height of 29mm is just to much.

Because I went from a custom water-cooled loop to air because of temperature issues probably coming up in the summer, the first thing I did was some testing. And the result is kind of frustrating, because under load the GPU gets even hotter under air than under water, which is not a reason to panic, but now I have ambient temperature of 22°C and looking forward to the summer I can easily add another 10°C, which will end up with 10°C higher temps under load and that will be near 90°C with fans spinning at 100% already now.

I did a comparison of the parts and temperatures here, if any one is interested: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16543019/Water-Cooling vs. Air-Cooling.pdf

This is bothering me. With water-cooling I was afraid of the summer, because I already noticed now in the winter/spring, that the pump and reservoir, the tubing and especially the fittings got very hot. The pump is specified for water temperatures of 45°C max. I don't have the possibility to really measure this, but by finger-feeling this must be reached already, if not exceeded. I expected damage when running this config with higher ambient temperatures. My girlfriend already asked once if the smell of burning plastic was coming from my computer.
So I switched to air to eliminate the damage possibility of the cooling system. But now the GPU is almost hitting the 80°C under load with fans spinning at 100%. In the summer even 10°C more would not do damage, but I am not willing to accept fans running at full speed and still having bad temps. I looked through this thread after people having the Accelero Xtreme III. Most of what I have found claim better temps than I get.





If I reached this result, I would be absolutely happy. Can a OC'd Titan X be the difference of 15°C plus annoyingly loud fans?

I have ordered an EK Predator 240. Not to mount it on the side, but in the bottom. Should have taken a ruler out before. The Predator itself is not a problem. It fits on the bottom, not comfortable and I would have to decide the either use front audio or the fan hub on the Predator, but it is in there, laying strait on the bottom. But mounting the motherboard seems impossible to me at the moment. The Predator is 68mm heigh and interferes with the bottom part of the motherboard. PCB plus PCI-E port is 12mm when removing the GPU catch mechanism. When also removing the side panel holding clips, there is just 12mm clearance. So, with luck and sweat I could maybe fiddle it in, but I want to access the PCI-E port to plug a riser cable in. There would literally be no room for that. The only possibility I see is cutting a hole in the shroud of the Predator. There is 9mm between the fins and upper edge of the shroud. High probability of risking to damage the fins. Don't have a good feeling about that.

I don't see any other possibility at the moment. Do you?

My main concern is not overheating the motherboard or PSU. My point was, that hot air can't go out on the other side of the case, because components are in the way. Why do you think a bottom mounted Predator could not breathe and overheat the whole computer? I am struggling with hot tubing and fittings and water temperature at the moment with a side mounted radiator. I think the warm air is stuck right now, because it is blown in horizontally and blocked by the components as said before. There are no fans supporting the air going out of the case. And with a slim radiator there is quite some space in the middle of the case left over, so the heat has a chance to go up. With a side mounted Predator there was significantly less space for air going up. Maybe it would be better anyway to orient the fans as exhaust, like this other user did. But then warm air from the bottom of the case will be used and PSU-exhausted warm air will be sucked in from above the case, so this is no ideal situation either. With a slim radiator temps were better with side intake than exhaust.
That's why I came up with the bottom mounted thick radiator. Better cooling capacity than a slim rad plus air has already the right direction and less restrictions going out of the case. With some modding you can even fit slim fans in the top to support the air flow actively. Sounds good in theory to me.

I am now thinking about not using the predator but some other 240mm normal to thick radiator. The only one suitable I found is this one
Magicool Your Watercooling Expert
It says it is just 12mm deep, which would be perfect. 31,5mm long could be of concern, though. I have now idea where to place the pump, if I would go this route. This is the big advantage of the Predator.

I'm quoting 3 of your messages because they are all related.

There is one simple fact that you seem to have missed so far, and that I will point out for you. The fact is that you are trying to cool almost 400W with a 240mm rad. It is undoubtedly possible... but you require the use of high quality fans AND you require to have the best possible radiator. A simple Magicool won't suffice here. As a general rule of thumb, 120mm of rad, with 1200rpm fan with a load of 100W will net you a 10ºC Delta. Temperature delta is the increase between air temperature and water temperature, and is a good indicative to understand performance of your water cooling system, since the lower the Delta, the better.

So, in your particular case... you would require 2400 rpm fans and a very good radiator to cool 400 W with a 10ºC Delta. This means that if you were to have an ambient of 30ºC the water would sit at 40ºC. There is no way around it. There simply isn't. Your best bet is to:

a) Mount a pump+deposit on the back of the case. A good one, not that Magicool crap you had installed. A good pump will improve the thermal performance of your block and radiator.

b) Forget about predator. That unit is probably the biggest radiator there is on the market (because its total length is rad + pump), and the tubing is gigantic.

c) Understand that powerful fans are required. You will fans of AT LEAST 2400rpm... and the problem with those is that most of them do not undervolt well. You might make them work at 1100rpm but... I wouldn't bet money that they will go and do less easily.

d) You can try to undervolt and underclock your gpu a bit. This will help with the amount of heat created and should make it easier to make your system not overheat.

All in all, the gpu temperature affects your cpu temperature because your system has hot water in it. This has no solution but to improve cooling efficiency... which comes from either more rad surface and/or more powerful fans.

Another option is... well... to mount and external radiator. The NCASE M1 features holes on the back. You could use those to mount a pair of quick-disconnects in there and you could mount a big-ass radiator (a quad) on the bottom of your desktop. If your case is stationary it is a good option that will effectively cool your whole setup AND not be too noisy. If you want to move it you have the quick-disconnects in place just to do that. At the same time, you could mount some fans on the side of the case to add ventilation for all the other stuff you have in the case.

Just food for thought... at least it is the way I'd do it in my NCASE, If I were to watercool.

 

[einmannbude]

prava, thank you for you detailed answer. I really appreciate it. Maybe you can help me even more, because I really want to understand this and it will help me not running out of money in cause of buying parts and trying them out ;-)

As a general rule of thumb, 120mm of rad, with 1200rpm fan with a load of 100W will net you a 10ºC Delta.

I have read about such a formula earlier. For my taste there is still too few variables in, because there is simply so many radiators. What kind of 120mm radiator is meant? Slim, normal, thick?

There is one simple fact that you seem to have missed so far, and that I will point out for you. The fact is that you are trying to cool almost 400W with a 240mm rad.

I am trying to upgrade from a 26mm slim radiator to a thick (or normal?) 43mm radiator, from 1500rpm fans to 2200rpm fans, and from not controlled air flow to direct air flow. So, I didn't completely miss the fact, that my radiator surface was too small.

Forget about predator. That unit is probably the biggest radiator there is on the market (because its total length is rad + pump), and the tubing is gigantic.

The Predator fits the case besides that it blocks the PCI-E port. I only can tell if my riser cable arrives, but as i said before, there might be a solution for that. A short investigation of the Predator revealed, that even the shroud might be removable, but I didn't try it yet. So if size is your only point of criticism, I don't see why I should send the Predator back. Yes, it is big, because pump and reservoir are already in. I didn't find a 240mm radiator which would not have the same problem with the 13mm depth besides the Magicool one. They are around 13mm in depth or slim in height, which would not make sense, because then I could stick with what I have. If you are aware of a good radiator, that fits in the bottom of the case better than the Predator and is as equal in performance, then please tell me.

You can try to undervolt and underclock your gpu a bit

Why would I buy the fastest single core GPU on the planet and undervolt it?

You made lots of suggestions and I thank you for that, but I will not mount external radiators. I already do not find rear mounted reservoirs appealing, but this is something I can live with. I also will not underclock the GPU. So there is two possibilities left over: Buy another case, or build the best cooling inside NCASE M1, that fits in. Since I like the M1 more than any other case, I am still hoping I can find the right parts. I think I am able to find something better than that Magicool pump on my own. But I was not able to find a radiator, that fits the M1 better than the Predator, besides that Magicool one. If you have something special in mind, I would love to hear it.

 

[Mastaba]

You mean setting up the graphic card side by side with the mobo using a riser cable, like on the DAN-A4?

 

[einmannbude]

You mean setting up the graphic card side by side with the mobo using a riser cable, like on the DAN-A4?

Yes, exacly. Why do you ask?

 

[Deleted member 222586]

prava, thank you for you detailed answer. I really appreciate it. Maybe you can help me even more, because I really want to understand this and it will help me not running out of money in cause of buying parts and trying them out ;-)

I have read about such a formula earlier. For my taste there is still too few variables in, because there is simply so many radiators. What kind of 120mm radiator is meant? Slim, normal, thick?

Well, there are in fact many variables, but radiator performance is something very easy to measure if you have accurate probes. In order to do this tests they use an aquarium water heater and, using a kill-a-watt they measure its power draw at the wall. Then, they use the probes to calculate the temperature of the air that goes inside the radiator (air-in), the temperature of the air that leaves the radiator, and they average the temperature of the water by taking several measurements across the system This way they know what kind of load they are putting into the radiator and how effective it is at passing it to the air.

And although it is true that the very same radiator will perform less on a case, in absolute terms, it is safe to assume that the best radiator (relatively) will also be the best one in your case. So yes, you might see 300W with 10ºC Delta on a review, and you might do 250W with the same Delta in your particular setup. But that "best" radiator will still be the same best radiator for you. Not at "best" as in the review, but the best one overall.

So, this is a thing that simply "works". For instance:

Full review: EK CoolStream XE 240mm Radiator Review - Page 5 of 6 - ExtremeRigs.net

The Ek Waterblocks EX240 that is being reviewed here is one of the best performers in the market, at least if we talk about high power fans, which is your case. The one that comes with the predator, the PE240 is also a very decent unit, though. The problem I see is that you are looking at doing a lot of work in order to fit it at the bottom. Do you plan to cut the back of the NCASE and make a new, custom, plate? Otherwise I do not see how do you intent to hold the gpu in place. That is my concern regarding the installation of the predator on the bottom of the case.

Also, have you thought about putting some slim fans underneath the case? It might be worth to try it (it would also be a very cheap experiment). You mount them underneath and put the case on top of the desktop to see if you notice the fans. If you don't see them you could use the predator AND an extra radiator on the side bracket. Combined, they should give you enough rad surface to fix the problem. All in all, I don't see any other way, you need 2 x 240mm radiators... or 3000 rpm fans.

I am trying to upgrade from a 26mm slim radiator to a thick (or normal?) 43mm radiator, from 1500rpm fans to 2200rpm fans, and from not controlled air flow to direct air flow. So, I didn't completely miss the fact, that my radiator surface was too small.

What exactly is that "direct air flow"?

The Predator fits the case besides that it blocks the PCI-E port. I only can tell if my riser cable arrives, but as i said before, there might be a solution for that. A short investigation of the Predator revealed, that even the shroud might be removable, but I didn't try it yet. So if size is your only point of criticism, I don't see why I should send the Predator back. Yes, it is big, because pump and reservoir are already in. I didn't find a 240mm radiator which would not have the same problem with the 13mm depth besides the Magicool one. They are around 13mm in depth or slim in height, which would not make sense, because then I could stick with what I have. If you are aware of a good radiator, that fits in the bottom of the case better than the Predator and is as equal in performance, then please tell me.

Why would I buy the fastest single core GPU on the planet and undervolt it?

I know... but simply put: a 10% downclock might shave 15% in power consumption. It also depends on whether you are fine performance-wise or you are lacking.

You made lots of suggestions and I thank you for that, but I will not mount external radiators. I already do not find rear mounted reservoirs appealing, but this is something I can live with. I also will not underclock the GPU. So there is two possibilities left over: Buy another case, or build the best cooling inside NCASE M1, that fits in. Since I like the M1 more than any other case, I am still hoping I can find the right parts. I think I am able to find something better than that Magicool pump on my own. But I was not able to find a radiator, that fits the M1 better than the Predator, besides that Magicool one. If you have something special in mind, I would love to hear it.

Regarding the pump: the predator has about the best pump you can install (A Laing DDC). That is precisely the point of the predator, that all the components are high-end.

 

[einmannbude]

Thank you for your answer again.

What exactly is that "direct air flow"?

By that I mean air moving through the case in one direction with as little restrictions as possible. More technically spoken: The intaken air is exhausted at the opposite site of the case and is not blocked by anything in between. If I manage to mount a radiator in the bottom and the GPU parallel to the mainboard, then the hot air can move strait up through the case and be exhausted at the top. I expect this air flow to be significantly better then intaking air at at side, blocking the opposite site of the case with motherboard and PSU and probably dispensing some of it to the bottom of the case, where it is stuck.

The problem I see is that you are looking at doing a lot of work in order to fit it at the bottom

I know, it will not be easy. I know, it will be time consuming. I know, there is potential to ruin the case. I have already broken a side panel clip But I also know, that I do not want to see one of those other cases out there in my living room. Most of them are black and/or ugly shaped. The one that comes close to what I would buy is the Raijintek Styx. It has mounts for 240mm in the top and 120mm radiator in the rear. I think there was even a mount on the bottom for 120mm. But also this case has this ugly, black plastic inlet on the top.

Do you plan to cut the back of the NCASE and make a new, custom, plate?

I did not think through this completely, but I would prefer to just cut pieces out, where it is needed. Obviously the GPU outputs. I want to mount some angled metal plates, where I then can mount the GPU itself. This was done already by irek83. You can see the pics here:
NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
I contacted him and asked for pictures of the back, but he did not answer yet.

Also, have you thought about putting some slim fans underneath the case? It might be worth to try it (it would also be a very cheap experiment).

There are several things that speak against this idea. The predator fans are already on the bottom of the case, beneath the radiator and the unit can't be flipped. Removing the fans will not give you the 25mm clearance in hight, because of the Predator's pump and reservoir.
The case stands are around 8mm in height, I think. I have orderer 16mm aluminum feet. But even then, the fans would just have 3mm to 1mm space to breathe.
And finally I don't think a side radiator and a GPU will fit in the upper part of the case. Also this again would break the idea of better air flow inside the case.

All in all, I don't see any other way, you need 2 x 240mm radiators... or 3000 rpm fans.

By the way I do have two 240mm radiators in the case at the moment. EK SE on the side and Magicool in the bottom. There is not much difference in temperatures between two and one 240mm radiator. I don't think this can just be explained by the "crap pump"

 

[Deleted member 222586]

There are several things that speak against this idea. The predator fans are already on the bottom of the case, beneath the radiator and the unit can't be flipped. Removing the fans will not give you the 25mm clearance in hight, because of the Predator's pump and reservoir.
The case stands are around 8mm in height, I think. I have orderer 16mm aluminum feet. But even then, the fans would just have 3mm to 1mm space to breathe.
And finally I don't think a side radiator and a GPU will fit in the upper part of the case. Also this again would break the idea of better air flow inside the case.

Crap you are right, the radiator on the predator itself is very thick because of the bloody pump.

By the way I do have two 240mm radiators in the case at the moment. EK SE on the side and Magicool in the bottom. There is not much difference in temperatures between two and one 240mm radiator. I don't think this can just be explained by the "crap pump"

Are you using the predator's pump or the "crappy" one? Because if you are using the crappy one then yes, that could explain why. Reasons... everything scales with waterflow. Another thing is that... are you using all the radiators as intakes, right?

Last thing, have you tried to mount the system outside a case, with all the rads an all? Unless something is malfunctioning the difference between 2 rads and 1 should be very very big.

 

[exzacklyright]

So what's the best 240mm AIO to get these days? H105? Does the ID-Cooling Frostflow 240L fit?

 

[pendragon1]

So what's the best 240mm AIO to get these days? H105? Does the ID-Cooling Frostflow 240L fit?

Introduction - Arctic Cooling Liquid Freezer 240 AIO CPU Cooler Review

 

[DersTheSwede]

Considering sleeved cables with the SF450. Are there generally preferred length(s) when used in the M1? One would think you could get away with shorter than the stock cable lengths.

 

[csd]

Crap you are right, the radiator on the predator itself is very thick because of the bloody pump.

Are you using the predator's pump or the "crappy" one? Because if you are using the crappy one then yes, that could explain why. Reasons... everything scales with waterflow. Another thing is that... are you using all the radiators as intakes, right?

Last thing, have you tried to mount the system outside a case, with all the rads an all? Unless something is malfunctioning the difference between 2 rads and 1 should be very very big.

The effects of flow rates are subject to diminishing returns - it's not as simple as 2x the flow = 2x the performance. I recall reading somewhere that 1.0-1.5 gpm is considered a good level, and after you don't see much increase in "performance".

FYI - I used to run 2x240mm rads in my setup and didn't see much improvement in temperatures either. They were identical radiators, but the lower one was running slim fans.

 

[Mastaba]

Yes, exacly. Why do you ask?

Sorry i didn't get this point first. I was thinking the classic way (so obviously not too much space between gpu and predator )
Yes, that would make it sounds possible and perhaps a cleaner way to integrate a predator.

 

[einmannbude]

Are you using the predator's pump or the "crappy" one? Because if you are using the crappy one then yes, that could explain why. Reasons... everything scales with waterflow. Another thing is that... are you using all the radiators as intakes, right?

I use the Magicool pump at the moment, because the single DDC pump I have laying around does not fit inside the case together with two 240mm radiators. But I also tested with open case and the DDC added to the loop in addition to the Magicool pump one week ago, which resulted in 4°C lower temps. Keep in mind that this was with an open case.

Another thing is that... are you using all the radiators as intakes, right?

I did a lot of fan orientation test and came to the conclusion, that bottom exhaust and side intake is the best configuration.

Last thing, have you tried to mount the system outside a case, with all the rads an all? Unless something is malfunctioning the difference between 2 rads and 1 should be very very big.

This is a good idea. I will give that a try in the next days. This would be proof of hot air stuck inside the case.

FYI - I used to run 2x240mm rads in my setup and didn't see much improvement in temperatures either. They were identical radiators, but the lower one was running slim fans.

Thank you for the confirmation. Which pump did you use?

 

[csd]

Thank you for the confirmation. Which pump did you use?

That was using a Swiftech Apogee Drive II - so basically a MCP35x DDC.

 

[Necere]

einmannbude,

Here are some of my thoughts on your situation:

• Rad thickness doesn't necessarily imply better performance. Fin surface area is important, and a high FPI thin rad can have more of it than a low FPI thick rad. The downside is the former will be more restrictive, and require fans with a higher static pressure rating and/or higher RPM to be effective. Generally high FPI rads will perform significantly poorer than low FPI rads at lower RPMs. The thing is, you absolutely need airflow for effective cooling, and a thick rad, and especially a rad on the bottom, is going to have much more restricted airflow in the M1.
  
• Don't use two pumps with different performance characteristics in the same loop. Use one good pump that can push 1-1.5GPM.
  
• Laing rates their pumps (the DDC and D5) with a maximum operating temperature of 60C. That's not to say you want them running close to that 24/7, but <50C shouldn't be a problem.
  
• An OC'd Titan X generates a lot of heat, no way around it. It just might not be possible to achieve the therrnal results you're comfortable with in the M1.

 

[pastorpastor]

Hello !

I plan to change my workstation (980x used for 3d rendering, editing, photoshop, ..) very soon, when the new Broadwell-E 6950x will be available.

My goal is to multiply the power by X2,5 and to divide the size of the case by /2.5 , So here I'm! Thanks so much to all the contributors of this very innovative case project !

And I want to keep the noise low because I want to use the case on the top of my desk ...

Now I have to choose the elements , I'm going to list my first choices but I think I need some advices , mostly on the CPU cooling.
Orange color is for what I think the choice is almost done, Fuchsia for parts I need some advice

- CPU i7-6950x 3.0Ghz T3.5 Ghz 140W TDP I plan to overclock until rock stable .. 4.2Ghz? maybe more ? maybe It's too much optimistic but for now we don't know yet how far this new Cpu will overclock ..
- MB Asrock X99E-ITX/ac
- Case mini ITX Ncase M1 of course
- CPU cooling : I don't really know what to choose yet but I want to use a 240mm AIO Water cooling ( I do not want to deal with DIY Water cooling maintenance ) or maybe a NH-C14 style cpu cooler (but I think it won't be enough to cool an overclocked 10 cores) so EK Predator 240 : is good but it's too big, it is not fitting easily without scratching the elements , Cooler Master's Glacer 240L seems fine but too much noisy and Swiftech's H220 may not be enough efficient to cool this CPU overclocked ? The Cooler master Nepton 240M seems great and fit in the M1 but it's not compatible with narrow ILM sockets, but may be I can use the EK mounting-plate-supremacy-lga-2011-narrow-ilm but not sure it's compatible ..
Are there any better choices ?
- Ram : Corsair Vengeance LPX Black DDR4 2 x 16 Go 2400 MHz CAS 14 : I didn't find faster RAM (than 2400) compatible with this motherboard with the 2x16 Gb capacity .. Does it exist ?
- SSD system : Samsung 950 Pro 512 Go
- SSD data : Samsung 850 Evo 2To
- Graphic card: I keep my MSI GTX 970 but I'm watching what Nvidia is going to offer with the Pascal architecture at this time but I think I won't choose a graphic card with an higher 140W TDP.
- PSU : Corsair SF600 or Silverstone SF600-G ( may be the corsair is quieter ? )

 

[einmannbude]

a thick rad, and especially a rad on the bottom, is going to have much more restricted airflow in the M1

Why especially a rad on the bottom? Is it because there is little room underneath the bottom case panel? Would rising the case be enough? Because I have already ordered higher case feet. I tested before with wooden bricks and got significantly better results.

Don't use two pumps with different performance characteristics in the same loop.

This was just for research to find out, if the Magicool pump has a problem to generate the needed water flow.

Laing rates their pumps (the DDC and D5) with a maximum operating temperature of 60C. That's not to say you want them running close to that 24/7, but <50C shouldn't be a problem.

I don't have the possibility to properly measure the water temperature, but going from load to idle reduces the temperatures of the components I can read out only to around 50°C. I don't know this for sure, but this might indicate, that the water temperature is around this. With 22°C ambient now and potentially 30°C in the summer, this could get a problem.

An OC'd Titan X generates a lot of heat, no way around it. It just might not be possible to achieve the therrnal results you're comfortable with in the M1.

I hear you. If you get this thing ready I will move over

 

[Phuncz]

Reasons... everything scales with waterflow.

Are you saying that a watercooling loop will scale with waterflow ? Your phrasing insinuates a more powerful pump will make the entire loop perform better in a likewise scale, but that's not true.

Another thing is that... are you using all the radiators as intakes, right?

In a PC case, airflow is important, not pos/neg pressurizing your case. You get airflow with the same volume of air as intake and as exhaust, not all intake. That way, a fan's performance will be limited. Hot air needs to go outside of the case, not just cool air in.

Unless something is malfunctioning the difference between 2 rads and 1 should be very very big.

Not necessarily, watercooling performance depends on a lot of factors: FPI (as Necere already mentioned), waterblock performance, waterblock TDP rating, head pressure, radiator restriction, correct installation, loop restriction, airflow, fan pressure, etc etc.

 

[Necere]

Why especially a rad on the bottom? Is it because there is little room underneath the bottom case panel? Would rising the case be enough?

Yeah -- the lack of clearance under the case, as well as the clearance between the rad and the GPU. Raising the case with taller feet and orienting the GPU vertically with a riser will alleviate those concerns, but it may still not get you the performance you want. Plus I don't think the taller feet, in particular, are very flattering.

In a PC case, airflow is important, not pos/neg pressurizing your case. You get airflow with the same volume of air as intake and as exhaust, not all intake. That way, a fan's performance will be limited. Hot air needs to go outside of the case, not just cool air in.

I think prava was referring to the fact that the rads will get slightly cooler air if the fans are set to intake.

Not necessarily, watercooling performance depends on a lot of factors: FPI (as Necere already mentioned), waterblock performance, waterblock TDP rating, head pressure, radiator restriction, correct installation, loop restriction, airflow, fan pressure, etc etc.

I think airflow is by far the biggest factor, and if a rad isn't getting enough it's not going perform well. All things being equal, two rads will have roughly twice the heat dissipation as one, but one with good airflow vs. two with average or poor airflow and the single rad might do better.

 

[csd]

Hello !

I plan to change my workstation (980x used for 3d rendering, editing, photoshop, ..) very soon, when the new Broadwell-E 6950x will be available.

My goal is to multiply the power by X2,5 and to divide the size of the case by /2.5 , So here I'm! Thanks so much to all the contributors of this very innovative case project !

And I want to keep the noise low because I want to use the case on the top of my desk ...

Now I have to choose the elements , I'm going to list my first choices but I think I need some advices , mostly on the CPU cooling.
Orange color is for what I think the choice is almost done, Fuchsia for parts I need some advice

- CPU i7-6950x 3.0Ghz T3.5 Ghz 140W TDP I plan to overclock until rock stable .. 4.2Ghz? maybe more ? maybe It's too much optimistic but for now we don't know yet how far this new Cpu will overclock ..
- MB Asrock X99E-ITX/ac
- Case mini ITX Ncase M1 of course
- CPU cooling : I don't really know what to choose yet but I want to use a 240mm AIO Water cooling ( I do not want to deal with DIY Water cooling maintenance ) or maybe a NH-C14 style cpu cooler (but I think it won't be enough to cool an overclocked 10 cores) so EK Predator 240 : is good but it's too big, it is not fitting easily without scratching the elements , Cooler Master's Glacer 240L seems fine but too much noisy and Swiftech's H220 may not be enough efficient to cool this CPU overclocked ? The Cooler master Nepton 240M seems great and fit in the M1 but it's not compatible with narrow ILM sockets, but may be I can use the EK mounting-plate-supremacy-lga-2011-narrow-ilm but not sure it's compatible ..
Are there any better choices ?
- Ram : Corsair Vengeance LPX Black DDR4 2 x 16 Go 2400 MHz CAS 14 : I didn't find faster RAM (than 2400) compatible with this motherboard with the 2x16 Gb capacity .. Does it exist ?
- SSD system : Samsung 950 Pro 512 Go
- SSD data : Samsung 850 Evo 2To
- Graphic card: I keep my MSI GTX 970 but I'm watching what Nvidia is going to offer with the Pascal architecture at this time but I think I won't choose a graphic card with an higher 140W TDP.
- PSU : Corsair SF600 or Silverstone SF600-G ( may be the corsair is quieter ? )

Good choice of hardware

There's plenty of RAM that's compatible with the X99E-ITX that's not on their site - I've used both Vengeance and Ripjaw V 3200 kits.
I suspect that the Dominator 3200 2x16GB (CMD32GX4M2B2800C14) kit will probably work also, as the 8GB modules do... I'm considering upgrading myself, so will let you know if it does.

If you want silent AND the highest TDP/Core CPU (overclocked) then I'd recommend you do go for a custom loop.
I had a NHC14 on my 5960X and it was fine for general usage, but for any sustained loads (eg rendering as you seem to be doing) it struggles to keep dissipating the heat even with the fans running flat out. If you're running an extra two cores for the 6950X there will be more heat also...
Personally, I don't have much faith in AIO's for quality, low noise or performance...
Once a custom loop is properly setup there really isn't that much maintenance.

PSUs - The Silverstone 600 is noisy. That's why I went for the 500, which has more than enough to run my 5960X and Titan X. That being said, I'll change to the Corsair 600 as soon as they're available down here (AU).

 

[Hybelkanin]

Hello! Has anybody installed a 180mm PSU? Somebody posted a picture with a 170mm model, and there seems to be enough space left, but I wanna make sure. I'm hoping to fit a Be Quiet! Dark Power Pro 11.

This is for a i7-6700 IGPU build. The ATX PSU should let me fit both fans on the NH-C14. I'm hoping that the case is well enough ventilated so that I'll be fine with just the C14 as inntake and no exhaust fans, allowing the positive pressure to push the air out. Anybody tried a build like this?

Appreciate any input.

 

[pastorpastor]

Good choice of hardware

There's plenty of RAM that's compatible with the X99E-ITX that's not on their site - I've used both Vengeance and Ripjaw V 3200 kits.
I suspect that the Dominator 3200 2x16GB (CMD32GX4M2B2800C14) kit will probably work also, as the 8GB modules do... I'm considering upgrading myself, so will let you know if it does.

If you want silent AND the highest TDP/Core CPU (overclocked) then I'd recommend you do go for a custom loop.
I had a NHC14 on my 5960X and it was fine for general usage, but for any sustained loads (eg rendering as you seem to be doing) it struggles to keep dissipating the heat even with the fans running flat out. If you're running an extra two cores for the 6950X there will be more heat also...
Personally, I don't have much faith in AIO's for quality, low noise or performance...
Once a custom loop is properly setup there really isn't that much maintenance.

PSUs - The Silverstone 600 is noisy. That's why I went for the 500, which has more than enough to run my 5960X and Titan X. That being said, I'll change to the Corsair 600 as soon as they're available down here (AU).

Hey Thank you csd for the informations

Yeah, Please tell me if you manage to use faster 2X16 Gb RAM on this motherboard !
And I will choose the corsair PSU if it is available ...

About the Custom loop ... Well ... On my actual 980x workstation I used before a custom WC loop ( But I asked a shop to do it ), but I had too much problems (in 1 year) : 2 times I got Algae, 1 time the pump was dead, And each time I had to stop my productions and had to run to the PC shop .... it was kind of catastrophic with my customers
So now I use a Dark rock C1 heatpipe + fan cooler and all I have to do is giving a dry air blow time to time ...

For my next workstation I would like to avoid this potential issues, so I think an efficient AIO 240mm closed loop will be better for me, At least I can imagine I won't have algae with a sealed system !
But it seems, that there are no easy solutions for the M1 (with a overclocked 10 cores beast I mean) ? I didn't have time to read all this thread, but it seems most are enthusiast power users with an home made WC loop (and it's great ! ), so may be I won't have much advices about a good AIO 240mm solution ?

 

[Demagolka]

Hey Thank you csd for the informations

Yeah, Please tell me if you manage to use faster 2X16 Gb RAM on this motherboard !
And I will choose the corsair PSU if it is available ...

About the Custom loop ... Well ... On my actual 980x workstation I used before a custom WC loop ( But I asked a shop to do it ), but I had too much problems (in 1 year) : 2 times I got Algae, 1 time the pump was dead, And each time I had to stop my productions and had to run to the PC shop .... it was kind of catastrophic with my customers
So now I use a Dark rock C1 heatpipe + fan cooler and all I have to do is giving a dry air blow time to time ...

For my next workstation I would like to avoid this potential issues, so I think an efficient AIO 240mm closed loop will be better for me, At least I can imagine I won't have algae with a sealed system !
But it seems, that there are no easy solutions for the M1 ? I didn't have time to read all this thread, but it seems most are enthusiast power users with an home made WC loop (and it's great ! ), so may be I won't have much advices about a good AIO 240mm solution ?

How much does ram speed matter? Have you checked benchmarks? I thought it was relatively inconsequential, but I could be wrong. I'm using a single 32gb ecc stick in my system right now, with the same motherboard and a 5930k. I would try out the 64gb sticks for lulz, but they start at around $600.

I have the Silverstone 600 psu, and haven't noticed any noise whatsoever from it. The fan shuts off when it's not needed, and is generally much quieter than the rest of the system.

 

[pastorpastor]

How much does ram speed matter? Have you checked benchmarks? I thought it was relatively inconsequential, but I could be wrong. I'm using a single 32gb ecc stick in my system right now, with the same motherboard and a 5930k. I would try out the 64gb sticks for lulz, but they start at around $600.

I have the Silverstone 600 psu, and haven't noticed any noise whatsoever from it. The fan shuts off when it's not needed, and is generally much quieter than the rest of the system.

Hi Demagolka
I didn't know you could use a single 32gb ecc stick with this MB ! are you still in dual channel mode ?

Well, I think Ram speed do not matter so much for me
I mean, for 3d renderings (3dsmax + vray) , the influence can be around 1-3% ( Overclocking, Optimization And Performance - Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB DDR4-3200 Review ), mostly it counts for winzip winrar situations (+5% ..+15%) and sometimes you can expect +1 +2% in games, it is not a big deal .. but ...

I use very often my system heavily loaded with a lot of applications and big files (3d files and photoshop ) so faster memory could have an influence
Moreover, the Broadwell-E memory controller could be more efficient than the haswell one and having a faster memory (3200 for instance) may compensate the fact Asrock X99E-ITX/ac makes you give up on Quad channel Mode ( dual channel mode only)
Since the DDR4 price are rather low and the faster RAM not really much expensive ....

 

[shinjinian]

Looked through the last few pages and didn't see anything about the next batch. Is it still on track for the 11th? I'm on the fence between getting an A4 and getting an M1. I'm thinking the M1 would have much better thermals and more flexible cooler options.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

The effects of flow rates are subject to diminishing returns - it's not as simple as 2x the flow = 2x the performance. I recall reading somewhere that 1.0-1.5 gpm is considered a good level, and after you don't see much increase in "performance".

FYI - I used to run 2x240mm rads in my setup and didn't see much improvement in temperatures either. They were identical radiators, but the lower one was running slim fans.

Diminishing returns affects everything And flowrate-related performance gains is no different. The thing is that you reach a point in which you lose performance because of the heat the pump outputs into the system compared to the performance you gain from such a powerful pump in the first place. But yes, more pump power = more performnace, in most scenarios.

I use the Magicool pump at the moment, because the single DDC pump I have laying around does not fit inside the case together with two 240mm radiators. But I also tested with open case and the DDC added to the loop in addition to the Magicool pump one week ago, which resulted in 4°C lower temps. Keep in mind that this was with an open case.

I did a lot of fan orientation test and came to the conclusion, that bottom exhaust and side intake is the best configuration.

The problem is that the moment you use a radiator as exhaust you are killing its performance. In such a small case you can't recycle air if you want to have good performance, and you require good performance with the load you want to put on your loop.

Are you saying that a watercooling loop will scale with waterflow ? Your phrasing insinuates a more powerful pump will make the entire loop perform better in a likewise scale, but that's not true.


In a PC case, airflow is important, not pos/neg pressurizing your case. You get airflow with the same volume of air as intake and as exhaust, not all intake. That way, a fan's performance will be limited. Hot air needs to go outside of the case, not just cool air in.


Not necessarily, watercooling performance depends on a lot of factors: FPI (as Necere already mentioned), waterblock performance, waterblock TDP rating, head pressure, radiator restriction, correct installation, loop restriction, airflow, fan pressure, etc etc.

Yes, watercooling temperatures scale (mind you, not linearly) with waterflow. There is a point in which more flow = less performance because the pump dumps its heat in the system, but such scenario is unlikely in a computer unless you run something like triple pumps. And maybe not even there. But yes, more flow = more performance across the board. The blocks work better and so does the radiators. Again, it isn't linear... but scaling is not about linearity.

Regarding airflow, I'm not talking about pos or neg pressure. That is a dust-related issue. No. I'm talking about using fresh air (= ambient temperture) VS using fresh that has already been used ( = ambient temperature + heat absorbed). Fresh air will always be cooler and, thus, provide a greater performance.

Lastly, it is unquestionable that more rad surface equals more performance. If you keep the rest of the system the same, there is no way around it. Sure, if you have a quad-rad for a 50W load... then adding another quad-rad with the same fans will probably provide no tangible benefits... but we are talking about realistic scenarios. 300W split between 1 or 2 rads make all the difference in the world.

 

[Skott]

Hello !

I plan to change my workstation (980x used for 3d rendering, editing, photoshop, ..) very soon, when the new Broadwell-E 6950x will be available.

My goal is to multiply the power by X2,5 and to divide the size of the case by /2.5 , So here I'm! Thanks so much to all the contributors of this very innovative case project !

And I want to keep the noise low because I want to use the case on the top of my desk ...

Now I have to choose the elements , I'm going to list my first choices but I think I need some advices , mostly on the CPU cooling.
Orange color is for what I think the choice is almost done, Fuchsia for parts I need some advice

- CPU i7-6950x 3.0Ghz T3.5 Ghz 140W TDP I plan to overclock until rock stable .. 4.2Ghz? maybe more ? maybe It's too much optimistic but for now we don't know yet how far this new Cpu will overclock ..
- MB Asrock X99E-ITX/ac
- Case mini ITX Ncase M1 of course
- CPU cooling : I don't really know what to choose yet but I want to use a 240mm AIO Water cooling ( I do not want to deal with DIY Water cooling maintenance ) or maybe a NH-C14 style cpu cooler (but I think it won't be enough to cool an overclocked 10 cores) so EK Predator 240 : is good but it's too big, it is not fitting easily without scratching the elements , Cooler Master's Glacer 240L seems fine but too much noisy and Swiftech's H220 may not be enough efficient to cool this CPU overclocked ? The Cooler master Nepton 240M seems great and fit in the M1 but it's not compatible with narrow ILM sockets, but may be I can use the EK mounting-plate-supremacy-lga-2011-narrow-ilm but not sure it's compatible ..
Are there any better choices ?
- Ram : Corsair Vengeance LPX Black DDR4 2 x 16 Go 2400 MHz CAS 14 : I didn't find faster RAM (than 2400) compatible with this motherboard with the 2x16 Gb capacity .. Does it exist ?
- SSD system : Samsung 950 Pro 512 Go
- SSD data : Samsung 850 Evo 2To
- Graphic card: I keep my MSI GTX 970 but I'm watching what Nvidia is going to offer with the Pascal architecture at this time but I think I won't choose a graphic card with an higher 140W TDP.
- PSU : Corsair SF600 or Silverstone SF600-G ( may be the corsair is quieter ? )

I can speak for the Corsair SF600w psu. I have one in mine. Now I use the Asetek 545lc AIO to cool my 6700k (not overclocked atm) and I can attest that unless I put my ear right up against the M1 case I cant hear anything sitting back a couple feet with it atop my desk. I have to put my ear right up against the case and even then its not that much noise at idle. If you want performance and quiet get the Corsair psu IMO. I use a evga GTX970 rear blower GPU and its the loudest thing when gaming but again its not that loud. I'm not anal rententive about noise though like some people are. For max overclocking a 6950 cpu I would also suggest a full water cooling loop. I'm no expert on full water cooling but I do know if you want to max overclock any cpu you can't beat a full water cooling set up. For ram I would suggest a low profile type if you can find them for your set up. Just makes everything easier. As to the X99E-ITX mobo I'll let my betters that are familiar with it advise on that. I hope that helps.

 

[einmannbude]

The problem is that the moment you use a radiator as exhaust you are killing its performance. In such a small case you can't recycle air if you want to have good performance, and you require good performance with the load you want to put on your loop.

Fresh air will always be cooler and, thus, provide a greater performance.

You don't have to believe me, but I testet this. I oriented the bottom fans as intake and as exhaust and left everything other the same. Bottom exhaust resulted in better temperatures of CPU and GPU. And this is not only my personal experience. There are other users of this forum, who experienced the same.
The GPU in such a configuration is right above the bottom radiator. The heat is taken off the GPU by the GPU block, water transports the heat to the bottom radiator where the heat is dissipated to the air. This hot air then is blown back against the GPU block by the intake fans.

 

[einmannbude]

Predator not looking so impressive anymore after removing the shroud.

The fins are slightly more than 20mm in height. Since they claim it to be the Coolstream PE unit, did they also add 9mm of nothing on each side on the PE?
Now I am curious how high the fins in the SE unit are. And since the SE unit has 22 fpi and the PE unit has 14 fpi, the difference in the potential cooling capacity might not be huge. Now I am thinking of using a different radiator and trade in the space saving pump location of the Predator.

 

[Necere]

Hello! Has anybody installed a 180mm PSU? Somebody posted a picture with a 170mm model, and there seems to be enough space left, but I wanna make sure. I'm hoping to fit a Be Quiet! Dark Power Pro 11.

This is for a i7-6700 IGPU build. The ATX PSU should let me fit both fans on the NH-C14. I'm hoping that the case is well enough ventilated so that I'll be fine with just the C14 as inntake and no exhaust fans, allowing the positive pressure to push the air out. Anybody tried a build like this?

Appreciate any input.

The cables will be a bit crowded at the bottom, but a 180mm PSU should technically fit.

Looked through the last few pages and didn't see anything about the next batch. Is it still on track for the 11th? I'm on the fence between getting an A4 and getting an M1. I'm thinking the M1 would have much better thermals and more flexible cooler options.

Still on track to start shipping on the 11th, yes. We'll be closing pre-orders before that, however (by the weekend at the latest).

 

[rfarmer]

So glad they are still on schedule for the 11th, I placed my order at the end of March and can't wait. Plus I have a bunch of parts getting dusty because I have no case to install them in.