NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

I don't meant re-testing the case but different hardware and a more optimum configuration for fans.
I thought the "professional" reviews were not going to happen since Necere is already a professional reviewer in my opinion. He designed the case so he knows what is important to test and what not.
 
Necere - Based on your testing, the H220 looks like a really great option paired with a blower style GPU with the ability to add a GPU block if desired. Would you agree is a solid solution for this case? H220 availability in Canada is really spotty and I have the ability to pre-order one now for the next shipment to NCIX. I want to start scooping up parts for my M1 build, including the ROG Impact as soon as it's for sale.

Thanks.
 
Be sure to check if the shop can effectively acquire more stock, since the H220 has been out of production for a while now, due to patent licensing issues.
 
I have only recently started reading this thread...Wow, everyone is amazing. Kudos to Necere and Wahaha for design and initiation of this project, but also thanks for everyone else for fantastic discussions about placements of things that I would never have thought about.

I was actually planning to do all of my computing from a laptop with backup to a NAS, since I don't really 'need' a desktop and only play the occasional game. However, plans change, and I want to get one of these cases as it looks great, but it will also allow me a lot of options in the future.

With regards to buying one of these cases, what does everything think about a forwarding service like hopshopgo? May be easier for Wahaha and could avoid additional tax for those who live in Asia?

Thanks.
 
Phuncz said:
Be sure to check if the shop can effectively acquire more stock, since the H220 has been out of production for a while now, due to patent licensing issues.
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I think they're still making it, they just can't sell it in the USA. American patent laws don't mean shit to the rest of the world :D

NCIX has an ETA of Aug 23
 
Phuncz said:
I don't meant re-testing the case but different hardware and a more optimum configuration for fans.

I thought the "professional" reviews were not going to happen since Necere is already a professional reviewer in my opinion. He designed the case so he knows what is important to test and what not.
Click to expand...

Different hardware would require the expenditure of additional funds they may not have, especially after a 3rd prototype. I have no doubt that within two weeks of delivery collectively people on here will have tested all the fan configs, an OC'd Titan setup, a fully water cooled setup, whether smaller mATX board will fit, and tempted fate with a dual-gpu card. :D

I didn't mean sending it off to a "pro" reviewer for testing just that someone in the trade may choose to buy the case and then review it. This is the premier crowd funded case, I assume it will get the attention of somebody. It probably won't help the sale of this case but could go a long way toward increasing exposure and "street cred" with the public at large for future Ncases.
 
Sorry, I'll be honest. I'm bloody lazy and am not going through 207 page's. I have come to terms that I don't like standard form factor's and am currently in high gear to swap to sff. Now I was originally going to get the Prodigy as do alot of m-ITX people, but something bothered me about it. After hour's of browsing ( more like 20 minute's lol ) lo and behold. I come across the M1. And dear god I have a dislocated jaw because it dropped so fast and so hard. I need information on how to get ahold of this case. I'm super stoked that this got funded and I hope this becomes a MASS seller!
 
How you get one of these cases is by waiting for the IndieGoGo campaign, which will be announced in the first post at some point.
 
Here is an alternative to the swiftech MCRES reservoir a few pages back. The dimensions are the same so it should fit the same. This one is designed for either vertical or horizontal mounting and uses the total reservoir's volume. It comes with the same number of ports, has a better positioned baffle for horizontal mounting, doesn't have the ugly mounting tabs, snaps in with the mounting bar and can be snapped out and tilted down, can be opened for cleaning, and comes in black acetal or frosted acrylic (with two LED mounts). Both have clear acrylic windows. Looks like one of the hoses would require one more 90 degree for a clean flat fit. Mounting looks easy with two extra holes on top that can be easily drilled yourself, or just some angle brackets on top in the same location as those on the MCRES. The fill ports are a little higher but would still require the computer be tilted on its side for full filling. Its a custom reservoir so it is a little more expensive, but it looks like it is in stock at FrozenCPU, PerformancePCS, Aqua Tuning US/CA/AU, Watercooling UK, and can be ordered direct.

FrozenQ Flex Tank Multi-Purpose Reservoir
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The flextank is like 3 years old :p

Having the intake and outlet ports on either side of the 'baffle wall' doesn't work as well as you might imagine. Is all good when the water line is high above the wall. But as soon as the water is less than the wall, it starts to splash which can introduce bubbles back into the loop. Depending of course how quickly your coolant evaporates.
 
WiSK said:
The flextank is like 3 years old :p

Having the intake and outlet ports on either side of the 'baffle wall' doesn't work as well as you might imagine. Is all good when the water line is high above the wall. But as soon as the water is less than the wall, it starts to splash which can introduce bubbles back into the loop. Depending of course how quickly your coolant evaporates.
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Yea it was introduced in the fall of 2010. Its a decent alternative. I would keep mine filled near the top anyway, and since you can open it up, you could cut the baffle down some if you wanted to reduce splashing or the fill level. At one point he was considering an angled baffle. I think he does custom orders as well so he might be a resource for doing something a little different with the same external dimensions. Maybe put a thread in the top for filling horizontally. Anyone have one of these that can tell us about the mounting bar? I would probably just use some angled aluminum and the existing screw holes.
 
WiSK said:
The flextank is like 3 years old :p

Having the intake and outlet ports on either side of the 'baffle wall' doesn't work as well as you might imagine. Is all good when the water line is high above the wall. But as soon as the water is less than the wall, it starts to splash which can introduce bubbles back into the loop. Depending of course how quickly your coolant evaporates.
Click to expand...

If you put a small fill tube at the top and fill till its halfway up the tube it would solve that problem
 
Screes said:
If you put a small fill tube at the top and fill till its halfway up the tube it would solve that problem
Click to expand...

If you mount it on the back of the NCase as Necere has shown in previous renders, then all G1/4 ports are either on the bottom or on the sides, there is no port on the top in that orientation.
 
So... didn't Swiftech have the ApogeeDrive out wayy before all of these other closed loop coolers came out anyways? It seems insane to me that Asetec is pushing Swiftech out! That really sucks as I wanted to go with an H220 myself. Damn.
 
extide said:
So... didn't Swiftech have the ApogeeDrive out wayy before all of these other closed loop coolers came out anyways? It seems insane to me that Asetec is pushing Swiftech out! That really sucks as I wanted to go with an H220 myself. Damn.
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André Eriksen (the A.S.E. in Asetek) started making CPU coolers in 1997. First based on phase change, then later in 2003 with a pump and coolant. He applied for a patent then, but it wasn't granted until last year. http://www.hardocp.com/article/2003/09/23/asetek_waterchill/

Swiftech was 4 years later (in 2007) with the CPU block and integrated pump. http://www.swiftech.com/pr-8-7-07-apogee-drive.aspx Also tried to get a patent but was rejected, and then started to concentrate on trying to patent a radiator+pump combo which wasn't commercially successful.

Don't get me wrong; I have two Apogee Drive II's myself and much prefer them over Asetek products. But if it was Eriksen's idea, and the courts agree with the patent, then he has a right to defend his invention.
 
WiSK said:
André Eriksen (the A.S.E. in Asetek) started making CPU coolers in 1997. First based on phase change, then later in 2003 with a pump and coolant. He applied for a patent then, but it wasn't granted until last year. http://www.hardocp.com/article/2003/09/23/asetek_waterchill/

Swiftech was 4 years later (in 2007) with the CPU block and integrated pump. http://www.swiftech.com/pr-8-7-07-apogee-drive.aspx Also tried to get a patent but was rejected, and then started to concentrate on trying to patent a radiator+pump combo which wasn't commercially successful.

Don't get me wrong; I have two Apogee Drive II's myself and much prefer them over Asetek products. But if it was Eriksen's idea, and the courts agree with the patent, then he has a right to defend his invention.
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So the thing I don't fully understand is why the H220 is the only Swiftech product they are shutting down? Is the patent not applicable to the Apogee Drive II because the pump isn't fully 'integrated', even though it does mount on the the water block? It doesn't appear that they have also discontinued sales of the Apogee Drive II in the US.
 
WiSK said:
Don't get me wrong; I have two Apogee Drive II's myself and much prefer them over Asetek products. But if it was Eriksen's idea, and the courts agree with the patent, then he has a right to defend his invention.
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Partially true - but what Asetek is doing is very dangerous to them from antitrust law viewpoint. Their absolute refusal to licence the patents to competitors for fee is a very dangerous thing to do.
Swiftech approached Asestek on June 27, 2013 for a "nonexclusive license for the asserted patents" but was denied on July 12, 2013 after receiving a response from Asetek's legal counsel that the company doesn't offer licenses.
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Ok Necere, i got a bit of a strange question for you if you don't mind.

What's the distance from the outside of the right side panel to the top of the CPU, and if you had to make that distance as short as possible while still having a motherboard tray separate from the side panel what do you think you could get it down to?

A 2 part question i know, but i would really appreciate it. thanks.
 
adamantium said:
So the thing I don't fully understand is why the H220 is the only Swiftech product they are shutting down? Is the patent not applicable to the Apogee Drive II because the pump isn't fully 'integrated', even though it does mount on the the water block?
Click to expand...

It's because the H220 is closed-loop, which competes directly with Asetek products and therefore is defensible in court.

faugusztin said:
Partially true - but what Asetek is doing is very dangerous to them from antitrust law viewpoint. Their absolute refusal to licence the patents to competitors for fee is a very dangerous thing to do.
Click to expand...

It's not "absolute", since CoolIT are still selling their CLCs, you must assume that Asetek are open to licensing or agreement of some form. We don't know what terms of agreement Swiftech asked for - per unit, per year, per product, etc. Also, the licensing terms would have to be very unreasonable before any anti-trust law can be applied.
 
Phuncz said:
Necere, will you do further hardware testing like you did with the first sample ?
Click to expand...
No. For pretty much the reasons Sith gave. My testing is a starting point; it'll be up to the community to try out a broader range of hardware configurations.

Dephcon said:
Necere - Based on your testing, the H220 looks like a really great option paired with a blower style GPU with the ability to add a GPU block if desired. Would you agree is a solid solution for this case?
Click to expand...
Yes I would.

Screes said:
Ok Necere, i got a bit of a strange question for you if you don't mind.

What's the distance from the outside of the right side panel to the top of the CPU, and if you had to make that distance as short as possible while still having a motherboard tray separate from the side panel what do you think you could get it down to?

A 2 part question i know, but i would really appreciate it. thanks.
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It's ~19mm, I believe. It's already as small as it can be, for the following reason:



This is a front view of the motherboard with card mounted. Note how the PCI bracket extends past the edge of the motherboard by ~10mm. In the M1, the standoffs are 8mm, motherboard tray is 1.5mm, and chassis flange it attaches to is 1.5mm. So 11mm total before you hit the right side panel. There are actually slots cut into the chassis flange for the bracket tabs to fit through. And in fact, those were omitted from the first sample I received, which had to be manually corrected because it was preventing the cards from seating properly. This 'bug' was corrected in the second sample, though.
 
WiSK said:
It's not "absolute", since CoolIT are still selling their CLCs, you must assume that Asetek are open to licensing or agreement of some form.
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There is a lawsuit between Asetek and CoolIT going on, the only difference is that Swiftech gave up, while CoolIT tries to either invalidate the patents, or force Asetek to offer licences, which they denied to Swiftech.
 
Necere said:
It's ~19mm, I believe. It's already as small as it can be, for the following reason:

This is a front view of the motherboard with card mounted. Note how the PCI bracket extends past the edge of the motherboard by ~10mm. In the M1, the standoffs are 8mm, motherboard tray is 1.5mm, and chassis flange it attaches to is 1.5mm. So 11mm total before you hit the right side panel. There are actually slots cut into the chassis flange for the bracket tabs to fit through. And in fact, those were omitted from the first sample I received, which had to be because it was preventing the cards from seating properly. This 'bug' was corrected in the second sample, though.
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Well say the expansion card was on a riser. Would it be possible to shave of a few mm then?
 
Screes said:
Well say the expansion card was on a riser. Would it be possible to shave of a few mm then?
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Sure, though you might run into problems with some CPU cooler backplates. The Lan Gear ITX case had 4mm standoffs, I believe, but those caused some problems and it was suggested to increase them by 3mm.
 
WiSK said:
It's because the H220 is closed-loop, which competes directly with Asetek products and therefore is defensible in court.



It's not "absolute", since CoolIT are still selling their CLCs, you must assume that Asetek are open to licensing or agreement of some form. We don't know what terms of agreement Swiftech asked for - per unit, per year, per product, etc. Also, the licensing terms would have to be very unreasonable before any anti-trust law can be applied.
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What about Cosair with their units, or are these made by Asetek?
 
Quick question -- what's the clearance between the bottom of the case and the graphics card PCB? I'm wondering if two 240mm radiator closed-loop systems would even be a viable possibility.

Awesome job with the case, by the way. Crowdfunding efforts like this always warm my heart. :)
 
Lurking this thread for a while, can't wait for the production run, but I had a few questions that made me make and account!

First, is the right (looking at the front of the case) panel perforated or solid? The various renders are contradictory.

Second, if I want to have a 3.5" drive, a long GPU, an SFX PSU, and an H100i, what would you recommend for the fan configuration? As far as I can tell the only fans I could use in a situation like this are two 92mm fans that probably won't be able to compensate for the 120mm fans on the H100i. Plus, the rear 92mm would probably be exhaust and the bottom 92mm would be intake. Is it possible to run an H100i with the two fans running opposite each other?

Will the production run be limited in the sense that you will only be making N number of cases? Or limited in the sense that you will only have one or two production runs?

Awesome job Necere and wahaha360! This is the first mITX case I've seen that looks good, is functional, and is compact.
 
poeticEnnui said:
Quick question -- what's the clearance between the bottom of the case and the graphics card PCB? I'm wondering if two 240mm radiator closed-loop systems would even be a viable possibility.

Awesome job with the case, by the way. Crowdfunding efforts like this always warm my heart. :)
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Will it fit? Yeah depending on the thickness of the rad and fans.

Will it be functional or worth the cost/effort? Probably not.

This is a photo of an H60 with a 25mm fan and a full GPU block taken by Necere. http://i.imgur.com/uVfegkD.jpg
As you can see there is almost no room.


rajeeves said:
Lurking this thread for a while, can't wait for the production run, but I had a few questions that made me make and account!

First, is the right (looking at the front of the case) panel perforated or solid? The various renders are contradictory.

Second, if I want to have a 3.5" drive, a long GPU, an SFX PSU, and an H100i, what would you recommend for the fan configuration? As far as I can tell the only fans I could use in a situation like this are two 92mm fans that probably won't be able to compensate for the 120mm fans on the H100i. Plus, the rear 92mm would probably be exhaust and the bottom 92mm would be intake. Is it possible to run an H100i with the two fans running opposite each other?

Will the production run be limited in the sense that you will only be making N number of cases? Or limited in the sense that you will only have one or two production runs?

Awesome job Necere and wahaha360! This is the first mITX case I've seen that looks good, is functional, and is compact.
Click to expand...

1. I believe both sides are now perforated in the latest revision.

2. I would try to use a blower style card. Have the SFX psu oriented so that the fan is facing the right side panel. Have both fans on the H100i as intake, yes they will be blowing warm rad air around the case but it shouldn't be too bad and you will maintain positive pressure. With 240mm rad I don't think a 92mm fan is internally mountable in the rear slot. See photo here: http://www.ncases.com/wp-content/gallery/m1-prototype/66_K6HS0FOl.jpg You might be able to fit a slim 92mm in the front but I don't know how much good it will do.

3. I believe they will make enough cases to cover the placed orders plus 10% to cover accidental shipping damage or defects. Only one production run is planned atm.
 
rajeeves said:
Lurking this thread for a while, can't wait for the production run, but I had a few questions that made me make and account!

First, is the right (looking at the front of the case) panel perforated or solid? The various renders are contradictory.

Second, if I want to have a 3.5" drive, a long GPU, an SFX PSU, and an H100i, what would you recommend for the fan configuration? As far as I can tell the only fans I could use in a situation like this are two 92mm fans that probably won't be able to compensate for the 120mm fans on the H100i. Plus, the rear 92mm would probably be exhaust and the bottom 92mm would be intake. Is it possible to run an H100i with the two fans running opposite each other?

Will the production run be limited in the sense that you will only be making N number of cases? Or limited in the sense that you will only have one or two production runs?

Awesome job Necere and wahaha360! This is the first mITX case I've seen that looks good, is functional, and is compact.
Click to expand...

The pictures are in order from most recent to least recent. The most recent version has matching vents on both sides.

Why do you need 92mm fans to "compensate" for the 120mm fans? I dont understand this concept.
 
1. I believe both sides are now perforated in the latest revision.

2. I would try to use a blower style card. Have the SFX psu oriented so that the fan is facing the right side panel. Have both fans on the H100i as intake, yes they will be blowing warm rad air around the case but it shouldn't be too bad and you will maintain positive pressure. With 240mm rad I don't think a 92mm fan is internally mountable in the rear slot. See photo here: http://www.ncases.com/wp-content/gal...6_K6HS0FOl.jpg You might be able to fit a slim 92mm in the front but I don't know how much good it will do.

3. I believe they will make enough cases to cover the placed orders plus 10% to cover accidental shipping damage or defects. Only one production run is planned atm.
__________________
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Thanks. I was planning on a blower fan. I didn't realize that the rear fan couldn't be used. Maybe if it was mounted externally? But then the rad would be blocking. Are you sure all that hot air sitting around is okay? 100W of heat going straight into the case doesn't sound too good.

The pictures are in order from most recent to least recent. The most recent version has matching vents on both sides.

Why do you need 92mm fans to "compensate" for the 120mm fans? I dont understand this concept.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to get neutral pressure in the case, which is considered optimal. The volume of air in equals the volume of air out. The way it looks like now though is that I might need to have hat air sitting around in the case.
 
Nah man, positive pressure is preferred. More air in than out. The hot air will find its own way out but the large intake of fresh cooler air will keep your components cool.
 
It might be a general rule of thumb, but in the end "slightly positive pressure" is where you want to be. It will mean most air gets in and out quickly, without heating up other components and it allows the maximum air flow and keeping excess dust out.
 
Ace of Six said:
So with the modification to the AC power inlet for the case, does that mean we can now orientate the NH-C14 as shown in the picture above? If so, would it be possible to fit the side HDD cage?
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No. The alternate AC inlet location is for better watercooling compatibility (GPU full cover fittings, specifically), not air cooling.

The NH-C14 won't fit in that orientation because it extends past the top of the case. At least, it does with the board I tested. Exact compatibility with large air coolers depends a lot on socket location - something that's true of mini-ITX in general. While it's possible the NH-C14 could fit if the socket is in exactly the right location, I'm not aware of any boards where that's the case. This assumes you actually want to use a PCIe card btw; if you didn't, it opens your options up considerably as far as board and air coolers go, since you wouldn't have to worry about blocking the slot.

If you want to use the side HDD cage, you'll need to use a smaller air cooler or CLC. With the ASUS board, the NH-C12 should fit.
 
Necere said:
No. The alternate AC inlet location is for better watercooling compatibility (GPU full cover fittings, specifically), not air cooling.
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I can't seem to follow this one. How does the AC inlet (top of the case) have an impact on the GPU cooling (bottom of the case) ?
 
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