NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

We disagree on this point, why do you think it's viable at this price? If retailers struggle to shift Lian Li with a Lian Li badge for <$100 then to me it looks very difficult for a unknown brand. If all the product features and details are excellent, and the finished article is presented to a very high professional standard then maybe you can charge a high price as a premium, boutique brand - but you need to convince buyers that you are offering a product that really is top quality and exclusive.

agreed, and they are going to want all the money up front before they make anything other than maybe one engineering sample. also, will this be brushed anodized aluminum on the outside like their other cases? both black and silver would look great, just wondering what your plans are for the exterior finish.
 
IanM

Product Differentiation - I understand your logic, but we are not starting a company, I just want 299 other people to place an order with me so I can get this case.

Quality - I'm going to try sending the prototype to review websites (ex: Tom's Hardware) as means to validate the design performance and quality of Lian Li manufacturing.

Price - Lian Li is providing their service to this project to test a concept design they can use later for themselves. If retail price falls below $120, it doesn't help their pricing strategy for future products.

cmadki4, you have a point about the hidden costs associated with buying abroad. You will be getting plenty of PMs from me about logistics planning...lol
 
Make it strictly water cooling only and push the motherboard closer to the PSU, perhaps also restrict the PSU size to SFX. That way you can narrow the overall width, either narrow it as much as possible, or narrow it some, but leave some space underneath the motherboard to mount 2.5" drives.

Allowing drives behind the motherboard might leave a little more convenient room inside the case to help fit custom water loops with micro reservoirs. There are CPU blocks with pumps mounted on them for custom loops e.g. Swiftech Apogee Drive II.

The Apogee Drive II is actually pretty tall - around 70mm, not including fittings, so moving the PSU closer to the motherboard would be counterproductive. I actually tested this in my model, and it should fit (just) with an SFX power supply, but it depends on the CPU socket location and orientation. The AD2 has a somewhat unfortunate fittings setup that make it less compact than it could be.

Increase the height a little to accommodate say ~280mm graphics cards and deep radiators e.g. XSPC RX120 or radiators with shrouds (this is a big benefit.)

I have around 80mm in the model between the lower fan mount and the motherboard. This means thick rads like the RX (63mm) are out ATM, though a HWlabs SR1 (54mm) or a 30mm rad in push-pull could potentially fit.

Case height only needs to increase half an inch or so to make more of that stuff work.
 
I just want 299 other people to place an order with me so I can get this case.
I get it, but you still have to persuade those 299 to commit and that really is an unknown. The principles of making the right product at the right price still apply. Who knows - interest may spread quickly and you get 299 buyers easily.

The Apogee Drive II is actually pretty tall - around 70mm...
'only' 61.5mm according to the drawing on Swiftech's page, but even so that's more than I expected. http://www.swiftech.org/images/products/APD2/apd2-dimensions.jpg

I have around 80mm...
...that stuff work.
I have a couple of those TFC Xtender shrouds kicking about somewhere, iirc those are 32mm thick and I used two on my H50 + two fans. Makes for a pretty chunky cooler! By the time you add gaskets and add it all to a fat radiator it's ~185mm? I was actually thinking that ~55mm is about the maximum desirable height increase (at which point 12" gfx card fits) but another 20-25mm would be enough to allow some very flexible configuration options.

Just looking at some typical radiators, corsairs H70 and H80 are 48mm and 38mm, XSPC's new AX is 40mm. Two fans + gaskets on any of these seems a likely configuration. Probably not unreasonable to assume 63mm rads are the least likely to be used, so do you even allow space for one shroud + one fan on the 63mm rad?
 
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'only' 61.5mm according to the drawing on Swiftech's page, but even so that's more than I expected. http://www.swiftech.org/images/products/APD2/apd2-dimensions.jpg

I neglected to mention that I was taking into account the CPU socket height as well, which adds just about 8mm, so it's almost 70mm above the board. Fittings also add to the height by some variable amount depending on the size and type of fitting. The ports also rotate which is another unknown quantity.

I was actually thinking that ~55mm is about the maximum desirable height increase (at which point 12" gfx card fits) but another 20-25mm would be enough to allow some very flexible configuration options.

Just looking at some typical radiators, corsairs H70 and H80 are 48mm and 38mm, XSPC's new AX is 40mm. Two fans + gaskets on any of these seems a likely configuration. Probably not unreasonable to assume 63mm rads are the least likely to be used, so do you even allow space for one shroud + one fan?

I think 12" cards are out, but 11" might be possible if we add the half inch I mentioned. Rads under 50mm should be no problem a well.
 
I've just spotted something else, one of your previous posts gives the case width as 160mm, correct as is currently? and the radiator model is oriented longways across this width. many of the 120mm rads are actually 160mm long! a few are up to ~170mm and a handful are ~155mm. I haven't checked the usual suspects of AIO coolers yet. Will the radiator fit if rotated 90° with the ports to the front of the case without fouling the 2.5" drives?
 
I've just spotted something else, one of your previous posts gives the case width as 160mm, correct as is currently? and the radiator model is oriented longways across this width. many of the 120mm rads are actually 160mm long! a few are up to ~170mm and a handful are ~155mm. I haven't checked the usual suspects of AIO coolers yet. Will the radiator fit if rotated 90° with the ports to the front of the case without fouling the 2.5" drives?

Internal width is 160mm, not including the side panel width. I'm aware that a few rads exceed 160mm, however most are a few mm under this. That said, I think we'll be increasing the width by a few mm just to give some extra breathing room.

The design is still in a state of flux, so ports at the front might still be possible. It means more space is needed between the fan mount and the GPU though to allow for the rad end chambers, so we'll see. It also depends on how the 2.5" drives are set up.

edit: Ranma13 posted this list of rad dimensions the other day:

Code:
                  L   W   H  (all in mm)
EK Ultimate:	  160 130 64
Alphacool UT60:   157 124 60
Coolgate:	  170 124 60
XSPC RX120:       162 125 58.5
Black Ice SR1:    157 133 54
Black Ice GTX:    157 133 54
EK Coolstream XT: 154 119 47
Magicool Extreme: 156 120 46
Alphacool XT45:   160 125 45
Corsair H80 rad:  152 120 38
Swiftech MCR120:  158 128 34

So of 11 rads, 4 are 160mm or longer, but of those only the Alphacool XT45 is under 50mm. Plus, all but the Coolgate are 162mm or under. So just increasing the case width a few mm will cover 90% of them.


Seems a bit moot honestly - even if you manage to wedge an AD2 in there, I can't see too many ways you could possibly fit a reservoir internally. Maybe under the top cover...
 
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This is awesome :)

I would be in for one if we could fit a ATX PSU & make sure it had dust collectors

I also think we should have NO logo at all
 
Starting to put together the SolidWorks file, wanted to share.

SW01.png


SW02.png


SW03.png


SW02B.png
 
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I don't much like that rounded hole, I much preferred the square one that Necere had originally.
 
He's talking about the cable opening :p

It's bold, to be sure. But it's on the back, so you don't have to look at it. Still far nicer than the back of most cases.
 
if i recall, the circular hole in the back was just to match the circular hole on the back of the imacs right? i think the old shape necere had was more functional and more fitting of the rest of the build. you can just lift up on cables instead of having to actually poke the connectors all through the hole, which would really come in handy if you have lots of cables. it also matches the vents on the bottom, in shape if not size and proportion.
 
Can hardly tell the difference really...

Alright, had this idea for the cable opening:



Now before you hate on it (I know you will), let me try to sell it to you on its functional superiority over the circular opening: the opening serves multiple functions - obviously to let cables through, which the open channel facilitates, but also to allow removal of the top cover, as well as being a natural place people will use to lift the case.

Being that the opening is on the rear and typically hidden from view, it's important to have tactile feedback. This is provided by the open channel in the middle and rounded corners, guiding a finger up to the top panel to lift it off. Furthermore, the flat part either side of the channel allows the fingers to press securely into the corners for a positive finger engagement while lifting.

From an aesthetic perspective, I actually do think the circular opening seems out of place on the case. Aside from the power button, there are no other significant circular elements on the case and the overall theme is more rounded rectangular.
 
160*215*350mm vs. 168*220*360mm
Not at all noticeable unless the images are side by side :) if you're willing to try scaling the model again, try these sizes as well and see what you think:
172 × 230 × 375 mm
183 × 246 × 400 mm
If you compare typical space on desks next to displays and compare small audio monitors or hifi speaker, height could increase to ~450mm and depth to ~350mm. I'm not saying you would want to make it anywhere near that big, but you can retain a small footprint that is well within the range of a typical small audio monitor or hi-fi speaker and be below the height of a small display.

Alright, had this idea for the cable opening:
I agree with everything you said, the round hole is wrong in terms of styling and aping Apple doesn't sit too well with me, primarily because at this point the look has become quite ubiquitous, has dated quickly and it's not that interesting. However round holes will make for the most rigid panel (I think this won't be much of a problem in terms of overall integrity as the upper frame will have to be rigid in order to hold the PSU, and the real panel will join to that before the cable exit hole, but: vibration?)

When you first changed it from square to round I thought why don't you make a slot in a similar shape to the bottom grilles?

I also considered that maybe two holes side by side might be better for cable separation, routing and limiting the bend radius (the least possible strain on the connectors is important.) The rule of thumb is the smallest acceptable bend radius should be 10× the diameter of the cable

Will the proposed notch be necessary if the top panel slides on and off and is fixed with thumb screws on the rear? I'm sceptical that it would be a good idea to lift the case from this point, but dependant on the way the panel ataches the notch could be a great idea for easing the remocal of the panel.

oLACB.png
 
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I think a rectangular shaped hole for the cables makes the most sense, something that stretches more widely across where you've been designing the holes.
Just my $0.02
 
I'm not oppose to changing the circle cutout, but the square doesn't look right...yet

Designers and people with Apple products & accessories will look at this case. It makes sense for our final design to fit with other products. The most common on a desk would be these:

apple%2520accessories.png


This is why I arrived at the circle (updated with cutout):

revision_6.png


the rectangle proposed by xyexz

revision_7.png
 
I'm really digging the case design man!! See what silverstone says about a custom design as well...

Also, may I ask what program you're using for the case design??
 
I'm really digging the case design man!! See what silverstone says about a custom design as well...

Also, may I ask what program you're using for the case design??

We are in conversation with SilverStone.

Necere is using SketchUp, I'm using SketchUp and SolidWorks.
 
wahaha360, you nailed the idea that I had in my head perfectly, imho that's the best cutout made yet.
 
Anyone know how tall those folded lips on Lian Li PC-Q11 case are (see img) ?
Anyone know if the Lian Li PC-Q11 has vibration problems?

According to this article, 1.5mm aluminum used is thick and solid enough offering no vibration problem.

Necere, I think the PC-Q11 is good template as to how Lian Li will try and make our case. Check out
1. fan bracket is attached to the lip.
2. HDD cage shown here is also an idea we can try.
3. the PSU bracket is also shown

In terms of temperature, I think our case design will be comparable.

q11-06.jpg


q11-13.jpg


ruber washer for vibration:

q11-09.jpg
 
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experimenting with new side panel, let me know what you guys think

Orignial:
old.png


Experiment:
experiment.png
 
Anyone know how tall those folded lips on Lian Li PC-Q11 case are (see img) ?
Anyone know if the Lian Li PC-Q11 has vibration problems?

Hopefully I measured the folded lip to which you were referring (at the top of the case where the side panels are screwed in). I came up with 8.73 mm. As far as vibration is concerned I have not experienced any issues as the case feels quite solid which the side panels attached.
 
experimenting with new side panel, let me know what you guys think

Orignial:
old.png


Experiment:
experiment.png

Personally I like the first one better, you just don't see ducting like that anywhere and I think it really adds diversity to this case which adds to its appeal imho.
 
I came up with 8.73 mm.

0mniverse, thanks, more questions:

1. Is the height of the lip the same throughout? What about the part where the fan bracket attaches? Based on the pictures, that part seems to be shorter.

q11-06.jpg


2. Can you provide the dimension of the tool-less insert (see img below) ? Particularly how deep that piece go into the case.

toolless.png
 
Only the more recent Lian Lis use the post and latch type fasteners, the older ones (including the PC-Q11) just use screws.

Here are the exact dimensions I'm looking for (click for higher res):




Also, I want to reiterate that I want to avoid using a lip on any externally visible area if at all possible. This is why:




Ideally, there should be no lip on the U-piece (or any of the exterior panels), but a lip is acceptable on the bottom edge:




What I had in mind was to use separate pieces for the fasteners, riveted or otherwise attached to only the interior surface:



But IANAE, so I'm not sure if this entirely feasible to do. Anyone know if this is workable?
 
Necere, and others

Is it possible / smart to make the back plate removable?

If the back plate is removable and both side panels are also removable, then theoretically, a GTX 690 will fit.

idea.png
 
0mniverse, thanks, more questions:

1. Is the height of the lip the same throughout? What about the part where the fan bracket attaches? Based on the pictures, that part seems to be shorter.

Judging from the pictures I would have thought it would be shorter; however, it's actually the same throughout.
 
Necere, and others

Is it possible / smart to make the back plate removable?

If the back plate is removable and both side panels are also removable, then theoretically, a GTX 690 will fit.

It's an interesting idea. I'm not sure it makes sense to make the right side panel and backplate separate, since the motherboard + expansion cards are installed directly to these parts, but having them separate from the U-piece would make it much easier to do a build in:



So what you've got is essentially a removable motherboard tray. You'd lose chassis rigidity though.

I should point out that right now the case isn't deep enough for the motherboard and video card to clear the lip when putting it back together.
 
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Im in the process of also designing a true SFF build and decided to go with 1U/2U server PSU compared to a standard mATX/ATX PSU.
Why stick with the standard mATX/ATX PSU when a comparable server PSU is only a few dollars more?
 
Coming from someone who's had to prep 1u-2u servers for installation in dc's, sitting them at my cube and firing them up seriously needs ear muffs lol.
 
wahaha360, first I want to let you know that we are happy that you used our SG05 as the inspiration for your project. However, I think there maybe some misunderstanding:

I want aluminum cases, I think Lian Li is better at aluminum.

I beg to differ, there are many ways to make aluminum better, just depend on how much you want to spend.


Lian Li wants us to add our logo. Using Lian Li logo will might result in patent dispute with SilverStone. I doubt SilverStone's patent is defensible in court, but I don't want to risk delaying production.

It doesn't matter if the product has Lian Li logo on it or not, if it is manufactured by them in Taiwan without our consent, then they have infringed on our patent.


We are in conversation with SilverStone.

May I ask who you had contact with at SilverStone? I've asked around in the office and nobody has heard anything about what's discussed in this thread.

We offer OEM services and have plenty of experience working with some of the best PC builders in the industry. If you are interested, we may be able to help you as well. You can find out more and get in direct contact with our OEM team at the following mini-stie:
http://www.silverstonetek.com/OEM/
 
wahaha360, first I want to let you know that we are happy that you used our SG05 as the inspiration for your project. However, I think there maybe some misunderstanding:

Hey Tony,

Thanks for the link and my apologies for the misunderstanding. I been in touch with SilverStone USASALES. Now that you know, I'll be sure to mention it in my next email.

In regards to the patent, thank you for the update, I will look into it. The path of least resistance is the best route. At the end of the day, this is a hobby project, and if SilverStone can help us, that would be great.
 
Necere,

I got the specs you wanted, official numbers ;)

A: 5.5mm
B: 18mm
C: 13.3 mm
D: 8.85 mm
E: 10 mm

0rxFCl.jpg
 
It doesn't matter if the product has Lian Li logo on it or not, if it is manufactured by them in Taiwan without our consent, then they have infringed on our patent.

Silverstone owns the patent for the 90º rotated motherboard?
 
Silverstone owns the patent for the 90º rotated motherboard?
Yes they do...

post from earlier in the thread:

SilverStone's patent is in Taiwan, Patent number : M336464, You can track from here - http://twpat6.tipo.gov.tw/tipotwoc/tipotwekm?003C6EB20000000000000000000000A00000001E000000000

Spoke with lawyer - 1. defensibility of patent questionable in court, BUT I DON'T WANT TO CREATE PROBLEMS, I JUST WANT A CASE, and 2. if Lian Li act SOLELY as the manufacture without Lian Li logo, it might be ok. Will contact Taiwan's Patent Office just to make sure.

In terms of cost, SilverStone might be cheaper, I guess let's see what they say :p
 
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