Patience. Mid-November, remember? Don't expect pre-orders sooner than 7-10 days from now.
Rad directly on the bracket, tubes at the rear. Twist the block in relation to the rad so the tubes coil up.
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NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
- Thread starter wahaha360
- Start date
Half Life
Weaksauce
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AFD
2[H]4U
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NCASE M1 built by DIRAC at Tsukumo PC @Akiba-PC (JP) (Nov. 6, 2014)..
akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/news/20141106_674792.html
F'ing brutal bend on the internal PSU cable!
akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/news/20141106_674792.html
F'ing brutal bend on the internal PSU cable!
Luckily this showed up when it did - I have just enough time to incorporate one more revision to the bracket design that should alleviate the cable bend issue. The rest of the world might never get that PSU, but at least in Japan they'll be able to use it in the M1 without worrying.F'ing brutal bend on the internal PSU cable!
but i see everyone is going bracket->fan->rad in the image thread
Either way really. I was thinking you get extra room for tubing with the rad on the bracket, but with the H100 it doesn't actually matter that much. Bracket->fan->rad has the benefit of only needing one set of screws as well, so it's probably more convenient overall.
No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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So freaking pumped to finally get one! I wont be able to even build it out until i sell my current parts and case but im not going to miss my chance at owning it this time
veryrarium
Weaksauce
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I have a question which may have been already mentioned/answered, but couldn't find it...could Necere or any M1 owner tell me how many millimeters the top of a motherboard when mounted in M1 is from the interior side of the chassis top (the top frame along the right side panel on which the top panel sits on)? In other words, what's the maximum length by which you can shift a motherboard upward from the default mounting position before hitting the top side of the case?
AFD
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Worse-case scenario, they could always order the left-angle alternate power cable from W360 (think the alternate is LA, and stock is RA C13.. always get the direction confused
).Should have a little more room going in that direction, and the bend shouldn't be quite as severe..
Qrash
Gawd
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I'm getting tired of waiting for my Demciflex filters to get here (Ottawa, ON Canada area) from South Africa (how long does it take?) so I decided to finish my build with filters included with the M1. I got the NH-C14 installed and the last step was to install my Zotac 970 (the short 204 mm version).
My plan was to remove the heatsink shroud, remove the two 80 mm fans and plug my Noctua NF-P12 PWM fans at the bottom of the case into the graphics card's fan connectors (outlined in red below). Unfortunately, I was wrong about the fan connectors: they are not the standard ones that a 120 mm fan can plug into. Looks like I'll need those mini-to-standard PWM adapters afterall. So for now, I've put the 80 mm fans back onto the card, but left the shroud off so that the two 120 mm fans can also blow onto the naked heatsink.
BTW, the heatsink fans are Apistek model G881S2U which draw up to 0.38 Amps (at 12 Volts). The Noctua fans only draw 0.05 Amps, so I think the graphics card's fan controller should be able to handle them (eventually).
My plan was to remove the heatsink shroud, remove the two 80 mm fans and plug my Noctua NF-P12 PWM fans at the bottom of the case into the graphics card's fan connectors (outlined in red below). Unfortunately, I was wrong about the fan connectors: they are not the standard ones that a 120 mm fan can plug into. Looks like I'll need those mini-to-standard PWM adapters afterall. So for now, I've put the 80 mm fans back onto the card, but left the shroud off so that the two 120 mm fans can also blow onto the naked heatsink.
BTW, the heatsink fans are Apistek model G881S2U which draw up to 0.38 Amps (at 12 Volts). The Noctua fans only draw 0.05 Amps, so I think the graphics card's fan controller should be able to handle them (eventually).
AFD
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That kinda sucks, but thanks for the nudie ZOTAC pic!
I've ordered from them twice, and both times took ~2 to 3 weeks to eastern US, iirc.
Qrash
Gawd
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No problem! The frame for the fans seems to be held on by bent metal clips at the top and bottom edges, but I'm not sure. I'd like to remove the frame, but don't want to break the heatsink.
I ordered the fan adapter from FrozenCPU, along with a 2.5 mm thick Fujipoly thermal pad to help cool my Plextor M.2 SSD. More waiting for packages to arrive!
I ordered the fan adapter from FrozenCPU, along with a 2.5 mm thick Fujipoly thermal pad to help cool my Plextor M.2 SSD. More waiting for packages to arrive!
There's 7mm from the edge of the motherboard to a small part of the right side rail where it meets the rear of the chassis. For the most of the rail the clearance is 8.5mm.
South Africa Post Office has been affected by industrial action since the middle of August. Some mail is getting sent, but I presume there is a massive backlog.
can anyone here recommend fans for mounting on the bottom to feed an open air graphics card? I just put in a MSI gtx 980 Gaming 4G and it's running hotter than I'd it like to. Overclocked, with panels on and fans left on auto, I'm hitting around 84/85'c in heaven and far cry 3. Not sure if slim or regular 120mm, focused air flow or not, would be more ideal for feeding cool air into the gpu fans
ghostwich
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There have a few things attempted in the build thread, with a few different fans used, including some creative ducting.
Something to consider is that the third-party cooling solutions generally dump the heat into the inside of the case; Nvidia's reference cooler exhausts the heat out the rear. It might be worth looking into ways to pull the hot air out of the case, as opposed to feeding cool air in.
my experience with blower style cooling is that they become very loud, which is why I've gone with a third party cooler this time. I've thought about ways to exhaust the hot air from the gpu but there just isn't any. The addition of a long and wide graphics card such as the 980 Gaming 4G effectively creates two compartments in the NCASE: a lower compartment where all the hot air dispelled by the gpu is trapped and an upper compartment where everything else resides. The upper compartment can stay very cool because we can mount fans on the side panel and at the rear of the case and there are vents on the top panel. But in the bottom compartment, the size of the graphics board is trapping most of the hot hair exhausted. So the only option for pulling hot gpu air out is mounting exhaust fans on the bottom but that is only going to fight the intake fans directly above them. I agree with you that letting the hot air out would be a good idea as I've noticed that taking even just the front panel off while benchmarking reduces the temps by a good 8-10 degrees. Ducting seems effective also but it's inelegant. Therefore adding intake fans to feed the gpu intake seems like the only formal way to address this issue
No Hands 55
Limp Gawd
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this is my dilemma as well. i am going to test and see if adding them on the bottom along with 2 side intakes will result in good temps. i may add a rear exhaust if there is room with the h105. but i feel like with all that positive pressure hopefully most of the hot air will be forced out the top, a bottom to top airflow.
Also im running the gigabyte 970
Qrash
Gawd
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This is a real problem and I'm not sure if anyone has done experiments with having the bottom 120 mm fans as exhaust and then another test with them as intakes. Perhaps putting a PCI expansion slot fan in the third slot to exhaust air would help? Or, with all the fans as intakes, remove the third expansion slot cover? Would that let too much air out and ruin the positive pressure affect or only cause a local outflow?
In my case, I picked up the non-overclocked Zotac 970 just because it was in stock, but in retrospect it was a good choice for the M1. It is very short (204 mm) and of regular height so I think it won't cause the separation of the case into two regions that a large graphics card may cause.
wow, reading your post just made me realize something. We can remove that pci retention plate thing to the right of the pci slot covers. that actually creates a pretty sizable hole for air to escape. For future production runs maybe Necere can consider perforating those plates? For now, I'll probably just drill some holes into it..
I recall a while back a member did run the bottom fans as exhaust. I recall that it did function decently too, but my concerns are more along the lines of the VRM possibly not getting as much directed airflow, and the GPU getting second hand warmer air.
Best options some people have found (in potential order of effectiveness)
1) ducting from bottom to GPU fan intakes
2) bottom 120mm intake fans (with or without stock GPU fans, and with or without ducting)
3) exhaust bottom (May also mean some or all of the following: bottom 120mm fans, removal of GPU fans, and ducting between the bottom fans and heatsink)
4) nothing
Thinking about airflow design is the best way to start. Although I am no expert at all, and only go by what seems logical to me, the following thoughts seem to explain the above results.
It is correct to see that the case is split into 2 compartments, and this is true if you have a non-blower cooler in the bottom area. The way the cooler circulates the air, you can imagine that it would pull in air from the middle of the space, exhaust it out the sides of the GPU and into the area around it. This hot air would simply circulate back to the bottom of the space and the hot air recycled through the heatsink. The GPU further heating up hot air, creating high localised ambient temps. Very bad as far as the GPU is concerned, and as a result, fan speeds (and noise) go up to compensate.
But the bottom of the case is open to get fresh air you say? yes, but its not the easiest place to pull air from. Because of the triple slot design, a double slot GPU will not necessarily pull air very well through the bottom vent. Fans work by creating a low pressure area in front of the fan, so air will be drawn towards the fan to fill this low pressure region. Naturally, the path of least resistance will prevail, so air to the sides are unobstructed, while air outside the case is behind a metal grille, and possibly a dense filter too, similar to the effect of a fly screen. Yes air will be drawn in from outside, but the air next to the GPU is far more likely to be recycled back through the GPU.
The solution is to help the GPU get cool air, and to get the exhausted hot air get out of the GPU compartment. Air from anywhere else is most likely much cooler than what was in the GPU compartment.
So how do we get air into the GPU compartment, or get the hot air out? - Simply having lots of holes is one way, but MUCH more importantly, Creating a pressure difference between the GPU and "other" compartments. Putting fans in the right spot that encourage displacement of the hot air in the GPU section. This is where we come to options 1) and 2) from the list above
1) means you install a duct between case bottom and GPU intake fans. This works on a few levels.
a) Based on the earlier description, we can understand that doing this will prevent the GPU recycling hot air, and it can only pull in air from outside the case. (Yay!)
b) Secondly, by having only outside air enter the GPU fans, you are now pulling air into the case, so this air must go somewhere. If you have successfully blocked all other holes in the bottom of the case, this air can only go up and out into the other compartments, so the back vents, and the top/side panels. Essentially, as far as the GPU is concerned, it only gets fresh air, and it should be happy! (rest of the system is another story)
So this is why this should be the first port of call for your GPU, as it is the simplest modification (in theory), and safest too in that you have not changed anything on the GPU itself, and the fan control system still works as it should)
2) - Assisted ventilation options - Regardless of combinations being used (ducted, intake/exhaust) having a secondary fan on the bottom panels have the (potential) to help by creating a pressure difference between the GPU compartment and the outside of the case at the bottom. How well this works is dependent on many factors though, so there is no single solution applicable to everyone. Things to consider when choosing your setup
a) Fans create pressure, some are better at doing so than others - Pressure is important if you are planning to have a restrictive setup - things such as - Filters, close proximity to a flat surface (such as using the bottom fan as an intake, the tabletop is very close), obstructions down the line - if the air is to exhaust through the top panel, and competing fans - if you have 4 fans on the case all blowing into the case, they are all competing for the same exhaust holes, so they are increasingly pushing against each other (and reducing actual air flow). Pressure is dependent on RPM, so any fan will generate a higher pressure if you speed it up. Therefore when comparing, remember to keep in mind the RPM that the pressure is measured at.
b) Developing on the concept of airflow direction - you need to plan where air goes in and air goes out, and not just put fans in anywhere.Convection is relevant in fanless systems, but in a system where the fans are never off, convection flows are pretty irrelevant as they are very weak.
c) Airflow priority - If not all components get fresh cool air, which do you want to receive the coolest air. Ideally everything should get fresh air, but really in our case, its a situation of, do you want the GPU to be as cool as it can be at the expense of the rest of the system, or are you prepared to give the GPU second hand air after the CPU. Depending on what your priorities are, there will be an "ideal".
A collection of some thoughts, hope they help.
Best options some people have found (in potential order of effectiveness)
1) ducting from bottom to GPU fan intakes
2) bottom 120mm intake fans (with or without stock GPU fans, and with or without ducting)
3) exhaust bottom (May also mean some or all of the following: bottom 120mm fans, removal of GPU fans, and ducting between the bottom fans and heatsink)
4) nothing
Thinking about airflow design is the best way to start. Although I am no expert at all, and only go by what seems logical to me, the following thoughts seem to explain the above results.
It is correct to see that the case is split into 2 compartments, and this is true if you have a non-blower cooler in the bottom area. The way the cooler circulates the air, you can imagine that it would pull in air from the middle of the space, exhaust it out the sides of the GPU and into the area around it. This hot air would simply circulate back to the bottom of the space and the hot air recycled through the heatsink. The GPU further heating up hot air, creating high localised ambient temps. Very bad as far as the GPU is concerned, and as a result, fan speeds (and noise) go up to compensate.
But the bottom of the case is open to get fresh air you say? yes, but its not the easiest place to pull air from. Because of the triple slot design, a double slot GPU will not necessarily pull air very well through the bottom vent. Fans work by creating a low pressure area in front of the fan, so air will be drawn towards the fan to fill this low pressure region. Naturally, the path of least resistance will prevail, so air to the sides are unobstructed, while air outside the case is behind a metal grille, and possibly a dense filter too, similar to the effect of a fly screen. Yes air will be drawn in from outside, but the air next to the GPU is far more likely to be recycled back through the GPU.
The solution is to help the GPU get cool air, and to get the exhausted hot air get out of the GPU compartment. Air from anywhere else is most likely much cooler than what was in the GPU compartment.
So how do we get air into the GPU compartment, or get the hot air out? - Simply having lots of holes is one way, but MUCH more importantly, Creating a pressure difference between the GPU and "other" compartments. Putting fans in the right spot that encourage displacement of the hot air in the GPU section. This is where we come to options 1) and 2) from the list above
1) means you install a duct between case bottom and GPU intake fans. This works on a few levels.
a) Based on the earlier description, we can understand that doing this will prevent the GPU recycling hot air, and it can only pull in air from outside the case. (Yay!)
b) Secondly, by having only outside air enter the GPU fans, you are now pulling air into the case, so this air must go somewhere. If you have successfully blocked all other holes in the bottom of the case, this air can only go up and out into the other compartments, so the back vents, and the top/side panels. Essentially, as far as the GPU is concerned, it only gets fresh air, and it should be happy! (rest of the system is another story)
So this is why this should be the first port of call for your GPU, as it is the simplest modification (in theory), and safest too in that you have not changed anything on the GPU itself, and the fan control system still works as it should)
2) - Assisted ventilation options - Regardless of combinations being used (ducted, intake/exhaust) having a secondary fan on the bottom panels have the (potential) to help by creating a pressure difference between the GPU compartment and the outside of the case at the bottom. How well this works is dependent on many factors though, so there is no single solution applicable to everyone. Things to consider when choosing your setup
a) Fans create pressure, some are better at doing so than others - Pressure is important if you are planning to have a restrictive setup - things such as - Filters, close proximity to a flat surface (such as using the bottom fan as an intake, the tabletop is very close), obstructions down the line - if the air is to exhaust through the top panel, and competing fans - if you have 4 fans on the case all blowing into the case, they are all competing for the same exhaust holes, so they are increasingly pushing against each other (and reducing actual air flow). Pressure is dependent on RPM, so any fan will generate a higher pressure if you speed it up. Therefore when comparing, remember to keep in mind the RPM that the pressure is measured at.
b) Developing on the concept of airflow direction - you need to plan where air goes in and air goes out, and not just put fans in anywhere.Convection is relevant in fanless systems, but in a system where the fans are never off, convection flows are pretty irrelevant as they are very weak.
c) Airflow priority - If not all components get fresh cool air, which do you want to receive the coolest air. Ideally everything should get fresh air, but really in our case, its a situation of, do you want the GPU to be as cool as it can be at the expense of the rest of the system, or are you prepared to give the GPU second hand air after the CPU. Depending on what your priorities are, there will be an "ideal".
A collection of some thoughts, hope they help.
so I just took off the plate to side of the pci slot openings in the middle of a game and immediately I could feel a huge increase in hot air exhaust. Temperature wise, I'm seeing a 5 degree decrease than from before (79-80'c). I still plan on adding intake fans on the bottom but this is a pretty good half-way fix. Definitely recommend perforating that plate for future productions
EDIT: nvm it's more like a 3-4 degree improvement from before, eh..
EDIT: nvm it's more like a 3-4 degree improvement from before, eh..
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veryrarium
Weaksauce
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Thanks Necere for the detailed answer, really appreciate it!
Phuncz
2[H]4U
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This actually shows something else than a slight improvement: that hot air can't escape at all. It's the problem with open-style coolers (non-reference cards): they are designed for a larger case with lots of airflow. The problem is this case isn't like that. That's why it is recommended to use a reference card. Especially since the Nvidia Titan-design coolers are very good. Sure they can be noisy, but so will your open-style cooled card when it keeps recycling it's own hot air.
I'm likely the only M1 user running bottom fans as exhaust. VRM temps are not a problem because they're usually blocked by the heatsink. I get roughly the same VRM temperatures, although I didn't do any overclock. Temperatures are decent although I didn't record any numbers. Using my toasty PCS+ R 290, I'm getting 70-75C in CivBE, 1080p with max settings.
But ducting is required, GPU shroud has to be removed, it can be done but I don't recommend going through the trouble. And here is me pushing my agenda again: I wish the future version of M1 have holes on the side panel on the GPU area to the following case:
1) 2-slot open-air GPU with shroud on
2) bottom intake fans
This is to allow some of the hot air to leave the case through the sides.
Most of the GPUs out there are non-reference so it's weird that we can only choose between water cooling, Titan blowers or the whiny AMD blowers.
The problem is - and I'm fairly certain I've explained this before - that it requires punching a lot more holes in the side panels, which would exacerbate potential warping, as well as making the panels that much more fragile. I understand the reasoning for it, and it's something I've used in other designs, but the fact is the M1 design simply isn't suitable to implement it. I'd have to drop the dual 120mm side intakes, and with it goes the entire design.
More holes punched = more potential for warping and more fragile panels. There's no way around that with the current design.
I might add, it would also look like rubbish to have the ventilation sectioned up like that.
It has been done before but I wouldn't argue with you because I care too little about what the case looks like.
Although I can agree that the vents might improve potential air exhausting through the side, with the primary benefit of helping ambient air temps in the case), visually I find it too much a compromise. As practical as I might be with functionality, I don't feel so keen on side panel holes for the GPU when weighing up the pros and cons. (edit: yes its been done on your example case, and still don't feel like the case looks as premium for it Unfortunately… )
Functionally, the hot air from the GPU (in my V1 too) does ventilate through the gap between the mobo and backplate, and exits through the top vent anyway. I think mine would benefit more from having holes in the motherboard back plate at the GPU level (the V2 onwards addition). I guess I am also less affected by this because the CPU and PSU still gets fresh air regardless.
And yes, I think cowsgomoo, you were the one I was referring to with the reverse fan direction. That said, your temps are still very impressive!
Unfortunately… )Functionally, the hot air from the GPU (in my V1 too) does ventilate through the gap between the mobo and backplate, and exits through the top vent anyway. I think mine would benefit more from having holes in the motherboard back plate at the GPU level (the V2 onwards addition). I guess I am also less affected by this because the CPU and PSU still gets fresh air regardless.
And yes, I think cowsgomoo, you were the one I was referring to with the reverse fan direction
. That said, your temps are still very impressive!
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The PC-Q07 side panels are screwed into the chassis, which prevents panel warping or fragility issues to a large degree.
Unlikely those extra holes in the motherboard tray do much as far as airflow, actually. There's only 1.5mm between the tray and the side panel, whereas there's 8mm between the motherboard tray and the back of the motherboard.
Damn. I hadn't considered the impact of that plate at all. Did lots of temp testing two weeks ago and never really considererd this. I had it off while I was pulling my rig apart several times in a row, but i don't remember if I re-attached it before or after i did my final conclusive tests. I need to do a rerun of my ducting tests to find out. From your results I can expect one of two. My system is either running 5 degrees hotter than i thought, or ducting is far superior to bottom fans on open air coolers.
Im using the ECS H81H3-M4 motherboard in my M1 and would really appreciate if someone could be so kind to explain whats involved in getting the CPU_FAN to alter RPM according to temperature? (if its possible?)
My CPU cooler is a NH-9UB SE2 and so far ive been using the included resistors to lower the RPM but I guess its better to have a temp controlled fan so that it would alter the rpm instead of the constant speed that perhaps is a bit loud on idle and not enough on load?
Ive never done this before, usually I just hook up a old Zalman Fanmate but it would be nice to have the RPM-control automated, is it possible with my setup?
My CPU cooler is a NH-9UB SE2 and so far ive been using the included resistors to lower the RPM but I guess its better to have a temp controlled fan so that it would alter the rpm instead of the constant speed that perhaps is a bit loud on idle and not enough on load?
Ive never done this before, usually I just hook up a old Zalman Fanmate but it would be nice to have the RPM-control automated, is it possible with my setup?
EightCounts
n00b
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The stock fans on that cooler are only 3 pin...you need 4 pin fans which allows for PWM fan control. In short, you can't actively manage speed with those fans.
With that said, you also need 4-pin fan headers...it looks like your mobo has one 4 pin....not sure if you can run two fans on one header...maybe someone else can chime in.
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AFD
2[H]4U
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Don't think anyone's ever tried it to verify.. you'd be the first.
I don't see why it wouldn't fit, as long as you don't have anything else installed at the bottom of your case. Hopefully Necere can comfirm.
Def post up some pics if you get one!
First question is whether your motherboard allows control of fan speed in the first place. Is there any software included with the motherboard that allows you to alter fan speed? This can be a) in windows, or b) in bios.
Next, if you find any fan speed control, (Most likely for CPU temps), the next question is, does it apply to the CPU header, SYS header, or both. (Most likely CPU, and only maybe SYS header).
And finally, if it does work for SYS header, you can connect your Noctua fans there, because thats a 3 pin header, and if there is speed control, it must be voltage control rather than PWM.
Having a look through the online manual for that motherboard, I can't find any specifics to the above questions. The manual tells you how to get into the bios, but thats all it says.
http://download.ecs.com.tw/dlfileecs/manual/mb/H81H3-M4/H81H3-M4 MANUAL V1.0A.pdf
FourOhFour
n00b
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- May 12, 2013
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I use a Sunbeam PL-RS-PCI fan controller to convert a 4-pin PWM-controlled header to 3-pin voltage controlled for my NH-9UB SE2. Works well, though the first one I had failed.