NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

Phuncz said:
That's not a short card, it's about as long as my R9 290X.

The fan setup is not really what I'd use, the fan filter and fan grill alone is more than 8mm I recon. With 2x 15mm thick fans, that's basically 38mm of width which allows the use of higher static pressure fans like the Scythe Ultra Kaze.
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oh really? whats the length difference? i assumed the 760 was far shorter than higher end cards. this news makes my beard stroking increase significantly.

yes that would be my approach - one 25mm/38mm fan in push or pull rather than skinnies in push/pull
 
It depends, the GTX 760 can be a short card if it is supplied with a short cooler.
The reference PCB itself is short, but it requires a specific cooler:

TZ8VwMJXtTMkq9eP_500.jpg

ASUS GTX760-DC2T-2GD5-SSU

uFHGZnCImjCmeVoy_500.jpg

ASUS GTX760-DCMOC-2GD5

The picture I commented on isn't using a reference GTX 760 (don't know which card it is) but is much longer than the GTX 760 PCB. The main reason to go for a short card is so you can use an ATX PSU, but this also prohibits the use of a 240mm radiator on the sidepanel.
 
Curiositie said:
The 750ti only has a TDP of ~60w, so that and a 3570K will be 100% fine on a 240mm rad.

People have built this case with hotter hardware on just a 240mm rad and done fine tempertures-wise.
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A top of the line graphics card and any processor you want will be fine on a 240mm radiator. Just look at the 295x2, which only has a 120mm rad and consumes 500W of power. (Although it does have a few air cooled fins on it as well.)

Plenty of people have been running whatever single card/CPU setup they please on 240mm rads for a long time. It may run a few degrees hotter than a 260/480, but not by much.
 
Bobalias_LeShay said:
Plenty of people have been running whatever single card/CPU setup they please on 240mm rads for a long time. It may run a few degrees hotter than a 260/480, but not by much.
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Few degrees is quite an understatement.

I just spend the past few days grinding M1 water cooled builds. Very few were getting decent numbers when pushing their systems.

It's possible, and I'm planning on water cooling my M1, buy saying that plenty of people are doing it with only a few degree difference is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't want anyone getting the idea that it's easy to throw a 240 rad in an M1 and a huge graphics card. Then water cool the entire system.
 
What are "decent numbers" ? A CPU and a GPU performs exactly the same at 30°C or 70°C, so if you were hoping for almost above ambient temperatures, you are right that it isn't easy without sacrifices in the M1. But it also doesn't matter.
 
Phuncz said:
What are "decent numbers" ? A CPU and a GPU performs exactly the same at 30°C or 70°C, so if you were hoping for almost above ambient temperatures, you are right that it isn't easy without sacrifices in the M1. But it also doesn't matter.
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Why are you arguing with me? I never said anything about hoping for almost ambient temps or anything even remotely close to that?

Did you miss read something I said?

My comment was in relation to making sure someone doesn't read that post and think any cpu/high end card can be water cooled off a single 240 rad.

Please don't twist my words.
 
humenbean said:
Few degrees is quite an understatement.

I just spend the past few days grinding M1 water cooled builds. Very few were getting decent numbers when pushing their systems.

It's possible, and I'm planning on water cooling my M1, buy saying that plenty of people are doing it with only a few degree difference is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't want anyone getting the idea that it's easy to throw a 240 rad in an M1 and a huge graphics card. Then water cool the entire system.
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humenbean said:
My comment was in relation to making sure someone doesn't read that post and think any cpu/high end card can be water cooled off a single 240 rad.
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The accurate statement would be: any high-end CPU and single-GPU card at stock clocks (and probably modest overclocks) can be cooled off a single 240 rad, with temps that are still better than air (for the GPU, at least). You don't have to do anything special to achieve that, so it's just as "easy" in that respect as it would be with a larger rad. But yeah, you can't expect the much lower ("decent?") temps you'd get with more/bigger rads. So set your expectations accordingly. For me, watercooling is more about noise reduction than performance improvement, and the performance/noise/size balance the M1 allows for is without peer, IMO.
 
Unless you're overclocking, or trying to cool using the minimum fan speed possible, any single GPU card and single CPU that you can fit onto an ITX board (so no LGA2011 Xeons) should be easily handled by a 240mm radiator. 375W (PCI-E max) + 95 watt (1155 Max) means your radiator has to dissipate 470w with an equilibrium temperature below the temperature at which CPU or GPU would begin to throttle. Both begin to safety throttle at around 95° * (speed throttling is power-gated rather than temperature gated), so as long as loop temperature remains below that you're fine (i.e. 'decent numbers' are anywhere below that temperature). Remember that 470W is the peak load, if you're pegging that all the time, you've got some seriously odd workload running.

You might run into issues with a 'thin' radiator cooling a Titan and a Devil's Canyon i7, but a regular thickness radiator should be sufficient for the same load. If you're having problems, it's likely a mounting issue. The M1 is cramped and hard to pack things into tightly while still being able to work in, so stress transmitted by the tubing could be enough to distribute clamping pressure unevenly.

If you;re aiming to overclock, or to chase minimum possible nose levels, then having more cooling area will be beneficial.

* The throttle temperature is deliberately below the breakdown temperature for the silicon. Chips don't 'wear' if you run them below the breakdown temperature.
 
Then I misread it too.

Can you show your inferences, from the grinding you did of people's build logs, that any particular cpu+gpu cannot be cooled off a single 240 rad, at a lower temperature than stock air solutions?
 
Hi guys, could you please give me some feedback on my build.

Current plan is as follows.

Case: Ncase M1
Motherboard: Asus Rog Maximus VII Impact
Processor: Intel Core i7-4790K
CPU Cooler: Swiftech H220 Liquid Cooling
Memory: 2x 8GB VLP 1600MHz (?) Brand (?)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 780 Ti Superclocked 3GB (seems to be the only reference 780Ti I can find in Australia)
Storage: Samsung 830 256GB SSD or similar (maybe a larger one but i am also thinking about an M2 PCIe drive)
Power Supply: Silverstone SX500LG PSU (if it fits and is quieter than the Silverstone SST-SX600-G 600w Gold SFX. Otherwise I'll go for the SX600).

I have taken inspiration from Phuncz's build (thanks) but updated it with some new stuff coming out soon. Mainly want to use it for gaming and a mild overclock. Order of priority for me is: quiet, then cool, then fast.

In particular:
- Will I need 'very low profile' RAM? I think I read somewhere that it helps with clearance against something else internally, but I don't remember what.
- Any suggestions on memory brand or speed? or do i just go for whatever is cheapest and around 1600 or faster?
- I've never done anything with watercooling however I assume the all-in-one nature of the H220 makes it easy to use. I also assume it will fit ok because others are using it, but are there any constraints i need to be aware of?
- Will I need any additional fans?
- Am i missing anything? (monitor/keyboard/mouse already sorted)
 
NeonWhite said:
Memory: 2x 8GB VLP 1600MHz (?) Brand (?)

I have taken inspiration from Phuncz's build (thanks) but updated it..

- Will I need 'very low profile' RAM? I think I read somewhere that it helps with clearance against something else internally, but I don't remember what.
- Any suggestions on memory brand or speed? or do i just go for whatever is cheapest and around 1600 or faster?
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Not sure if VLP is 100% necessary, but I really don't see any downside, and you'll definitely be minimizing your chances for any clearance issues.

There's lots of low-profile RAM (some more so than others), but I think there's really only one true very low-profile kit.. the Crucial Ballistix Sport VLP. Should be the same stuff Phuncz is running. The part number for the 2x 8GB kit is # BLS2K8G3D1609ES2LX0
 
NeonWhite said:
- I've never done anything with watercooling however I assume the all-in-one nature of the H220 makes it easy to use. I also assume it will fit ok because others are using it, but are there any constraints i need to be aware of?
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If you are only installing it on the CPU, then it's easy. If you want to extend the loop to include the GPU then you need to take some time to follow Swiftech's instruction videos.

AFD said:
There's lots of low-profile RAM (some more so than others), but I think there's really only one true very low-profile kit.. the Crucial Ballistix Sport VLP. Should be the same stuff Phuncz is running. The part number for the 2x 8GB kit is # BLS2K8G3D1609ES2LX0
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mp-parts-4_zps7215449f.jpeg
 
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humenbean said:
Few degrees is quite an understatement.

I wouldn't want anyone getting the idea that it's easy to throw a 240 rad in an M1 and a huge graphics card. Then water cool the entire system.
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True, few degrees is probably very generous, but my point is that it's easy to cool any CPU and any card with a single 240mm radiator.
humenbean said:
My comment was in relation to making sure someone doesn't read that post and think any cpu/high end card can be water cooled off a single 240 rad.
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That's exactly where I'm respectfully disagreeing with you. Any card and any CPU will be just fine on a single 240mm radiator. (For definitions of "any" including standard desktop 88W CPUs and top of the line single GPU 250W cards) In general, enthusiasts dramatically overstate the needed size, fans, and fluid flow rate needed for water cooling.
 
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NeonWhite said:
Storage: Samsung 830 256GB SSD or similar (maybe a larger one but i am also thinking about an M2 PCIe drive)
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The Samsung 830 has been out of production for a while now and has been replaced by the 840 Pro and more recently the 850 Pro. These don't perform any different that most could notice. I'd recommend the Crucial M550 or the Samsung 840 EVO, which should perform the same but cost a lot less.
Only if you are going for an M.2 drive, you'd need to be very aware what you are buying. People are having success with the Samsung XP941 which at the moment is about the fastest M.2 PCIe x4 SSD out there, but it is hard to get.

NeonWhite said:
In particular:
- Will I need 'very low profile' RAM? I think I read somewhere that it helps with clearance against something else internally, but I don't remember what.
- Any suggestions on memory brand or speed? or do i just go for whatever is cheapest and around 1600 or faster?
- I've never done anything with watercooling however I assume the all-in-one nature of the H220 makes it easy to use. I also assume it will fit ok because others are using it, but are there any constraints i need to be aware of?
- Will I need any additional fans?
- Am i missing anything? (monitor/keyboard/mouse already sorted)
Click to expand...
- VLP memory is not needed but it helps a lot to avoid clearance issues with for example the waterblock. It doesn't really have any disadvantages except being more expensive (depends).
- the type I'd recommend that is true VLP is the one AFD and WiSK already mentioned. It has a 1600MHz speed and low latencies, the speed is the max one supported with the Haswell CPU's without overclocking.
- the H220 is very straight-forward in usage, it only gets more involved when you want to add a GPU waterblock (if you want to do this, PM me for any questions).
Just check before installing the radiator that you have enough access to install the backplate but I expect it not to be an issue. Also, run it outside the case for a while to make sure you don't have a faulty one. Mine was DOA (Dead On Arrival) and never worked. Luckily I tested it before installing it, so it saved me time to reassemble it. In the box there's a fan splitter that allows you to attach the pump and fans to it, powering off of a SATA power connector.
- I don't recommend having extra fans because in my opinion they don't add much. I like to keep my builds simple, with as little cable & clutter as possible. The bottom fans are not needed for a reference GTX 780Ti card and the rear fan will not help airflow much since the case already has so many holes. I'm running my rig (see signature) with just the H220 fans at 1000-1200rpm and I don't ever see a component hit 70°C under load.
- I'd recommend getting some Artic Cooling MX-4 cooling paste, as it's cheap and does it's job. I strongly recommend the DemciFlex fan filter kit for the Ncase M1, it has a complete kit on their website. You could get some nicer port plugs here (you need two of the 25mm ones) but that's just gravy.
 
Phuncz said:
- the type I'd recommend that is true VLP is the one AFD and WiSK already mentioned. It has a 1600MHz speed and low latencies, the speed is the max one supported with the Haswell CPU's without overclocking.
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Just wondering.. what are the basic BIOS config options for the Sport VLP?

My Tactical LP show up automatically as 1333 in the BIOS, with options for XMP #1 (1.35V at 1600) and XMP #2 (1.5V at 1600). Performance-wise, there's not a noticeable difference between the three settings, but at 1333, my CPU actually runs about 10C cooler during benchmarks (vs 1.5V at 1600) and at XMP #1 (also 10C cooler) the system consistently crashes during benchmarks. ASUS support didn't have any ideas, and the RAM passes testing. Timings in the advanced section appear correct, but I'm not sure what else the XMP profile is changing that would cause the crashing at 1.35V and the CPU temp increase at 1.5V

I've been racking my brain for months trying to figure it out
 
My VLP run at their rated speed and timings without any bios modifications. This is on an Asus Z87i-Deluxe. My assumption had been this is because they follow the official jedec spec, though I thought all Crucial ram did. Have you contacted Crucial?
 
My Crucial Ballistix Sport (VLP) have two XMP options. #1 runs at 1.35v and #2 runs at 1.5v. Been running them on #1 in my ASRock Z87E-ITX w/o any issues.
 
Vittra said:
My VLP run at their rated speed and timings without any bios modifications. This is on an Asus Z87i-Deluxe. My assumption had been this is because they follow the official jedec spec, though I thought all Crucial ram did. Have you contacted Crucial?
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Thanks Vittra! So your VLP show up in BIOS as 1.35V, 1600 without selecting an XMP profile?

CPU-Z only lists 2 JEDEC profiles.. JEDEC #3 (609 @1.35V) and JEDEC #4 (666 @1.35V). And 2 XMP profiles.. XMP #1 (800 @ 1.35V) and XMP #2 (800 @ 1.5V).

CPU-Z also shows PC3-10700 as the max bandwidth, when PC3-12800 (1.35V, 1600) is the advertised spec for this kit.

I always thought anything above 1333 was considered overclocked. Dunno.. just shot Crucial an email about it.


EDIT: And thanks WiSK and Synomenon! XMP #1 would give me the advertised specs, but it's the only profile that will consistently crash during testing (Prime95 and even under WEI; AIDA64 and Intel ETU are usually fine).
 
AFD said:
Just wondering.. what are the basic BIOS config options for the Sport VLP?
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This is that memory on my ASRock Z87E-ITX at default settings:

4m4Bd45.png
8VlFlWE.png


So the motherboard apparently automatically selects the first XMP profile.

AFD said:
... but at 1333, my CPU actually runs about 10C cooler during benchmarks (vs 1.5V at 1600) and at XMP #1 (also 10C cooler) the system consistently crashes during benchmarks.
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This is new for me, has anyone else noticed this behavior of the lower temps at lower RAM voltages or lower RAM clocks ?
 
Phuncz said:
This is that memory on my ASRock Z87E-ITX at default settings:
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Thanks Phuncz, appreciate that! The only thing different on my CPU-Z "memory" tab is the NB Frequency is 3899.1MHz (not sure what that is), and the timings are a little different (8-8-8-24 as advertised on the Tactical LP).

But on the "SPD" tab, it's way different.. 800MHz on the XMP tables only. Looks like I paid for PC3-12800, and received PC3-10700..

EhzyKvD.jpg


Not amused :(
 
I might be beating a dead horse here, but the H220-X has come up on tom's hardware today and looks pretty... are we sure it won't fit? I'm planning on getting a Z77N-Wifi or the B75 version of the same board, it's flat (some mobos have an audio/power board up at the top?) so I'm not sure what might get in the way of the pump assembly on the side of the rad - it'd be over the rear fan vent, or tucked in the front next to/interfering with the psu.

Would it just be too deep and the pump would end where the motherboard begins? looks like it might be anywhere up to ~140mm deep if those are 25mm fans. Rad+fan thickness ~60mm, same distance again for the pump mount, pump etc?

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/swiftech-h220-x-water-cooling,news-48424.html
http://media.bestofmicro.com/0/I/445842/original/H220-X-800.jpg

Getting a bit excited while the cases are in production... that Crucial Sport CL9 stuff is £104 on amazon btw, ~£16 cheaper than the corsair stuff I'd got tentatively in my basket. Excellent!
 
It seems the solid portion where the pump is attached, hits either the CPU block (or tubing), the motherboard in some way or when turned 180° around, it will hit the PSU. It might not hit the motherboard or CPU block on some motherboards (MSI has CPU socket closer to PCIe port) though, but that's a guess on my part.
 
I'm looking at the GA-B75N, and the pump/tubing would fit next to or occupy the same space as the sata ports/southbridge http://cutedevice.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/GIGABYTE_GA-B75N.jpg - tubing to the cpu block could be a problem, but the block itself is much flatter than one with a pump built in so it shouldn't get in the way too much.

Is there an internal measurements diagram of the ncase? I've been frantically googling for stuff to compare the H220-X diagram to, 'cause this looks like a nice bit of kit and I'm all excited that there's a slim chance it might fit.
 
I think the H220X is fine for tower cases where it can be mounted at the top, and the reservoir can be viewed through a window or such. The orientation of the pump, in such a case, is good for clearance as it hangs parallel to the motherboard.

But it's not ideal for SFF at all.

What is it about the H220X that you feel gives it an advantage over the regular H220, or even one of the Asetek/Coolit all-in-one solutions?
 
I think it's a case of "new is always better", it's got a fancier block and pump than the H220/Kelvin/H110 which implies it'll perform better, for similar money - in most cases it'd be a no brainer, but fitment is king here :)

At the moment I've got an old MSI twin frozr iii 6950, which I'll be running with the air cooling - I was looking at expandable aio gear so I could include the gpu when I upgrade the card (probably a year down the line still) without having to go to a proper custom loop. There's conflicting advice floating around the internet about the expandable aio loops, some say it'll perform fine and others say the pumps are pretty weak when you add in the extra block and tubing. H220-X is stronger again than the original one while still staying AIO, and this'll be my first foray into water cooling so I'd prefer something a bit more straightforward than going in and building the whole thing myself.

I've not looked at Asetek or Coolit, the usual recommendations I see are H220 or (I can't remember now...) or wait for the Fractal Design one to release which will definitely fit. It can't hurt to look at other options, but I don't want to waste too much of people's time chasing a pipe dream :)
 
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whiteface said:
it's got a fancier block and pump than the H220/Kelvin/H110 which implies it'll perform better
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H220X pump is improved on the H220 pump, which means it will likely be more reliable and they've increased the maximum rpm from 3000 to 4500 I believe. However, these type of pumps already have 'enough' head pressure for a CPU only loop at ~1500rpm and at ~2200rpm for a CPU+GPU loop. After that, the increased turbulence at higher speeds isn't going to win you more than a few degrees.

Generally, in w/c systems "performance" is mostly a function of fan speed and frontal radiator area. Things like pump speed and block restriction and radiator depth/fins-per-inch are secondary. Moreover, the H220X doesn't bring anything innovative, it's much the same design mechanically as all the other 240 CLCs.

Although I've not read any reviews, or independent tests of the H220X, I'm going to guess that at same fans speeds it'll be in the same ball-park as H220, Corsair H100, Seidon 240, etc.

I don't mean to be overly negative, just I mean to convey that the extra difficulty of fitting such a device isn't worth the returns, if there are even any.
 
That sums up exactly what I needed to know, cheers! I have a tendency to try and do things the hard way, but sometimes it's a bit daft. H220 was the original plan and I'll likely stick with it - it'll be cooler and quieter than the stock hsf I'm currently running, and it doesn't hurt that they look pretty sweet in the side of an M1.

Thanks for the input, all I've got to do now is wait for the cases to be built+shipped and for the new silverstone sfx psus to release :) I feel like a kid at christmas...
 
Phuncz said:
You have the Ballistix Tactical, I have the Ballistix Sport. The Tactical has a higher heatsink and lower latencies (8-8-8-24 vs 9-9-9-24).
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Yeah, I know they're different. But shouldn't a kit advertised by Crucial as 1.35V PC3-12800 be recognized as such, and not as PC3-10700?

It's just really strange that the cheaper Sport VLP can run at 1600 via JEDEC, where as the Tactical LP will only run at advertised speed via XMP. I just had to get the lower timings and damn mustard yellow heatsink :D
 
Hey everyone.

The pump in my H220 is dead, uff!

I have been cooling both CPU and GFX with it, unfortunally it seems that H220 is sold out from every store here in denmark :(

What is the best alternative to use instead? I can get the Hydro H100i Extreme Performance easilly - but i read somewhere the pump is weak.. too weak for both GFX and CPU? Using the Swiftech radiator? Also is the tubing same size as the H220?

Or should i look after something else?

Thanks! :)
 
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Thanks for your answer Phuncz.

The Eisberg could be a good solutiuon, but is there room in the M1 for it? It looks like it is much taller than the H220 pump?
 
Ok - I decided to go with the Apogee Drive II, change my H220 pump out with it.

It seems like it should fit in the M1 case without any trouble.. and also that its a better pump than the H220, hopefully this one lasts longer :)

If someone is using it and know it fits, please let me know then I have one thing less to worry about - Thanks :)

Changing the pump instead the CPU head seems like too big a risk for me.. maybe its easier than it looks.. but.. :)
 
Cederstrom said:
Ok - I decided to go with the Apogee Drive II, change my H220 pump out with it.

It seems like it should fit in the M1 case without any trouble.. and also that its a better pump than the H220, hopefully this one lasts longer :)

If someone is using it and know it fits, please let me know then I have one thing less to worry about - Thanks :)

Changing the pump instead the CPU head seems like too big a risk for me.. maybe its easier than it looks.. but.. :)
Click to expand...

what motherboard you have?

fits on the asus impact:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040516276&postcount=9493
 
It's been about a month since the last update, what's the production status? Are things shipping soonish or did we get pushed back in the production schedule? I'm like a giddy gaming schoolgirl with the Oculus DK2 and this case both shipping soon, and hopefully 880's in a couple months.
 
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Bobalias_LeShay said:
It's been about a month since the last update, what's the production status? Are things shipping soonish or did we get pushed back in the production schedule? I'm like a giddy gaming schoolgirl with the Oculus DK2 and this case both shipping soon, and hopefully 880's in a couple months.
Click to expand...
W360 recently sent out confirmation emails to everyone who ordered, so you might want to check your spam folder if you didn't see it. Latest report is that everything is proceeding as scheduled.
 
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