It depends.
In cases where you have plenty of flow and a positive pressure you will find hardly any dust.
But for example, my Zalman Z-Machine GT-1000 can get sort of grey after a while.
So does my room btw as I live close to two different highways.
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NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
- Thread starter wahaha360
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In cases where you have plenty of flow and a positive pressure you will find hardly any dust.
But for example, my Zalman Z-Machine GT-1000 can get sort of grey after a while.
So does my room btw as I live close to two different highways.
David164v8
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It depends.
In cases where you have plenty of flow and a positive pressure you will find hardly any dust.
But for example, my Zalman Z-Machine GT-1000 can get sort of grey after a while.
So does my room btw as I live close to two different highways.
Ah, thanks. Is the M1 one of those cases that are more prone to dust?
Type of case is not the main factor. It's more to do with fan speed and how much dust is in your house in the first place.
Which features a 120mm fan, not a 80mm fan. Most complaints about the 450W SFX PSU was the fan noise (bigger fan should help a lot) and that it's just enough for a high-end reference GPU with high-end consumer CPU without overclocking. The 500W SFX-L solves the fan issue and the Watt issue partially, the 600W SFX solves the Watt issue completely and the fan issue partially.
This 650W SFX-"M" (L is already taken
Maybe the Dirac psu uses a 25mm thick fan, instead of the puny 15mm in Silverstone's? If so, chances are good it will be quite a bit more silent. Slightly smaller than the SFX-L so it may fit the M1 better, and more silent than the SX600-G? For me, that would be a winner. But there's too many unknowns, with both the SX600-G (e.g. how loud will its fan be?) and these Diracs, so it's just wait and see...
Too bad the SX600-G release schedule has been budged, according to Tony Ou himself. They ran into some engineering problems with the first batch, and system builders will take all non-problematic units. The rest of us will have to wait. September, maybe.
Edit: apparently the fan in the Dirac is 92mm. It's starting to smell "winner" all over it, for my purposes. As long as it's not a slim 15mm.
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AFD
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The Dirac has a 92mm fan, not an 80mm..
http://www.dirac.co.jp/wp-content/gallery/teslacube-sfx/tcsxg-18.jpg
In theory, it should be silent some of the time. When the PSU's temp is below 45C, the fan will be completely off.
No idea what normal idle/low-load temps for their PSUs are, so hopefully the 45C trigger is enough to allow it be dead silent at idle and while doing minor tasks (surfing [H] and watching movies in silence would be nice).
Geoffrey4283
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I'll bet a dollar that it is a 92mmX15mm. If you look at the pics, it looks like they used most of the additional length to accommodate moving the power plug out of the way of the larger fan. I'm not sure how they're going to squeeze 50W more power than the Silverstone, while also reducing the overall depth of the power components.
Blorgon
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Would love to see an answer for this question. I've been up and down and across this way too long thread, but I haven't read it completely through, and am having a difficult time searching for posts talking about blower-style GPUs.
I've seen a few pictures of builds with blower-style GPUs and intake fans on the bottom, just underneath the cards, but I haven't found anybody actually talking about whether the extra intake blowing into the GPU makes any significant difference. The only info I found was about fan stalling, but that seems only to apply to fan-cooled GPUs.
My questions are: does a bottom intake fan blowing into a blower-style GPU make enough of a difference to warrant the extra fan? AND, would a 92mm fan be able to focus more airflow actually into the blower, or would a 120mm fan be preferable for the extra ventilation it would provide to the case?
Has anybody done any temp testing with and without bottom fans?
Again, I had trouble finding any info for my questions using the search function, so please forgive me if this has been covered somewhere in the last six hundred pages.
The M1 is as close to my dream case as I've ever seen outside of my CAD program. It's gorgeous, and I cannot wait to get my hands on one, whenever the next used one pops up
Cheers!
Phuncz
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Ah sorry, my bad.
If that graph is somewhat accurate, it will correlate to 0-20% load and 0-45°C for fanless mode. So that means it's good for <120W I guess, which should be easy with a non-overclocked Intel CPU and an Nvidia GPU (AMD uses more power for video apparently).In theory, it should be silent some of the time. When the PSU's temp is below 45C, the fan will be completely off.
No idea what normal idle/low-load temps for their PSUs are, so hopefully the 45C trigger is enough to allow it be dead silent at idle and while doing minor tasks (surfing [H] and watching movies in silence would be nice).
AFD
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That would be good, I think. AiSuite says my CPU is using less than 10W while watching a 1080p video w/iGPU. Heck, even while running an x264 encoding test, it's only reporting around 50W.. that's with all 4 cores running at 3.7GHz and 8 threads at 100% usage. Dunno.. might be an inaccurate measurement?
I rarely hear my PSU fan get loud under heavy CPU use.. it's mostly just noticeable at idle/low usage, when the other fans are being quiet.
Phuncz
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That's probably JUST the CPU, your motherboard and components still use power too. 50-70W is normal for a idle system using normal, default clocked components.
At idle, the power consumption is not very different between GeForce and Radeon (at least for high-end gpus), so <120W should not be a problem with a Radeon either.
Edit: sorry, I misread, you were talking about video playback, not idle. Don't know about power consumption in that case, so I take your word for it.
I really hope Silverstone actually have and use a temperature sensor in the 600W, because it seems they don't in the 450W Gold. The fan speed appears to be 100% load-controlled, not temperature, according to my recent experience when flipping the intake from inside to outside in my M1. Taking in cold air from the outside, with a lot cooler exhaust air, the horrible little fan is still exactly as noisy as when taking in hot air, it seems. Not sure if I'm correct, but it's still depressing. I hate that fan.
Get a reasonably accurate external power meter (I recommend an NZR SEM for the 230V electrical system) and measure at the wall socket instead. You need to compensate for the conversion loss in the psu of course (taking a look at its efficiency curve to find the percentage needed for calculation), to find the actual DC power consumption. It should be a lot more than 50W, for sure.
The fan in my 450W Gold is horrible, making a lot of noise at idle. It's a version 2.0, but I'm starting to wonder if it's actually a rebranded 1.0 or something...
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Phuncz
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I don't disagree with you on that, but I said 'video' meaning playing video files. A member on this forum mentioned that playing video meant that AMD GPU's clock the memory to 100%. I've noticed this too. He claimed Nvidia doesn't have this so I guess that AMD GPU's use more power when watching video.
This the Aquacomputer R9 290X full-cover block. What I observed, 29mm measured just past the PCB would mean it would just (not) hit the fan bracket. But that is inset into the case, which means it will just clear the side panel. The only question is the plugs, will they hit. I suggest using L-shaped pivot plugs so you can potentially adjust it a little inward.
I'm probably at a point going to try this if I convince myself I somehow need watercooling for my GPU.
Anyone know what res that is?
Looks like there is a pump underneath. I'll search a bit for it but chances are it is too big to fit inside anyway.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Anyone feel like hanging one of these on the inside from the ceiling?
http://www.alphacool.com/product_info.php/info/p943_Alphacool-Cape-Corp-AGB2-Black-Rev--2.html
Probably too wide as well.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Anyone feel like hanging one of these on the inside from the ceiling?
http://www.alphacool.com/product_info.php/info/p943_Alphacool-Cape-Corp-AGB2-Black-Rev--2.html
Probably too wide as well.
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Zangmonkey
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Phuncz
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The PCB seems to be standard-spec, so you won't have a problem with the power cables. The cooler doesn't seem to be excessive. I guess it would fit, but be sure to measure it.
My build is finally done. A big thanks no Necere and Wahaha360, as it's been almost a year since I joined the forum upon hearing about the case. Just gonna list everything inside so you know what fits.
Asus Z97i-Plus
Intel i7-4790K
Noctua NH-C12P
16GB Corsair Vengeance Pro 2400MHz
EVGA GTX 750 Ti SC
Plextor 128 GB M6e M.2
Samsung Spinpoint M9T 2TB
Corsair CXM 430W Modular
Asus Z97i-Plus
Intel i7-4790K
Noctua NH-C12P
16GB Corsair Vengeance Pro 2400MHz
EVGA GTX 750 Ti SC
Plextor 128 GB M6e M.2
Samsung Spinpoint M9T 2TB
Corsair CXM 430W Modular
yes, it will fit without any problems
Ifaik any MSI Twin Frozr board from them fits the M1.
The limit for the case is 140 mm height.
You have 128 i think.
My gtx 760 is almost the same as your 750. Mine is 126.
The 780 Ti is 129.
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AFD
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How's your temps?
Haven't built a system for more than 10 years, so I am just getting back into it.
I started by ordering an M1 and am looking forward to its delivery in August/September... In the meantime I have been researching what I need to put in it. For GPU I have been thinking about going with the MSI Gaming 780 Ti mainly because the chart here says that it is the quietest 780Ti while still being pretty good performance-wise. Anyone have any views to the contrary?
One thing that confuses me during the recent research is the talk of 'reference card' vs. 'non-reference'. I guess reference card equals the stock nvidia card, whereas non-reference is when GPU manufacturers take the basic chipset and add more features. These tend to come with blower-style fans rather than the opposite (where the GPU fan(s) draw air away from the card/heatsink rather than blowing onto it).
Do I have that right? Where does one actually buy a reference card? Direct from nVidia? All of the reviews and the cards I see for sale are for non-reference cards (e.g. the Asus/MSI/EVGA versions of the 780Ti).
I realise I could post this in a different forum here, however my most important question is whether the MSI Gaming 780 Ti (being a blower-style non-reference card) is suitable for an M1 case? This is a question of fit (though i think Rorschach was pretty clear in saying that any MSI Twin Frozr board would fit) and also a question of whether the blower would make things too hot inside the case.
Any help appreciated. This is all a bit new...
Reference cards are the ones using NVIDIA's design (which includes NVIDIA's cooler design). They're still assembled and sold by vendors, NVIDIA doesn't sell graphics cards to the consumers. Any card with the reference cooler is usually a reference card. Non-reference cards have a different cooler or a different design. For example ASUS DC2 cards have additional power delivery components and a cooler designed by ASUS so they're non-reference cards. MSI's Twin Frozr is also non-reference.
This and this are reference cards.
This and this are reference cards.
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A 'reference card' is one that uses Nvidia's stock (reference design) PCB and cooler. A non-reference card may simply replace the cooler, use a new PCB layout, or in extreme cases add actual additional features (e.g. more memory, multi GPU cards).
A 'blower' cooler is one with a radial-flow ('squirrel cage') fan at one end, with all the hot air exhausted out the back of the case via vents in the PCI support bracket. Stock/refernce coolers, particularly for midrange and high-end cards, are invariably blower coolers.
Non-reference coolers are usually 'non-blower' coolers, with big heatsinks and one or more large axial-flow fans, exhausting hot air into the case. In a large case with several ventilation fans, the larger (and thus slower spinning) fans will often be quieter than a blower-style cooler, as the big case fans can take up the slack of exhausting the hot air.
In the Ncase, because there are few-to-no case fans, the blower cooler design is preferable as it gets hot air right out of the case. A non-blower cooler will dump hot air into the case, where it will loiter rather than being exhausted (until it drifts out a grill from drafts from the CPU cooler, or pressure from a radiator intake fan). The non-reference cooler will then be intaking hot air it's just exhausted, not only raising the temperature of the air in the case (heating every other component), but causing the GPU cooler fan(s) to have to spin faster to keep the card cool, minimising or negating the noise savings.
Ideally, you want either a reference design (in the case of Nvidia cards, the reference cooler is widely regarded as excellent), a non-reference card with a blower cooler, or any card with an aftermarket blower cooler.
A couple of things before you se the picture with the results. I only have the fan that came with the cooler in my case. Also, the filters by demciflex are in my opinion very restrictive in terms of air flow. I have all4 installed and plan on putting the one designed for the sfx psu that came in the bundle on the back of my M1 cause there are all sorts of small bugs where I live and don't want one snooping inside my case. There is over 800£ pounds f components there without including the case.
The other things is that I will never use my cpu at those loads. If I did my backup plans involve replacing the fan with the new noctua industrial fan at 3000rpm and if that fails I will delid and lap both cpu and cooler. Further down the road I plan on upgrading the gpu and getting an sfx psu, but for the foreseable future this is my system of choice.
As you can see the maximum temps reached were 98ºC. Quite high, but like I said, if this scenario presented itself while gaming I would go with the backup solutions.
Now If you'll excuse, I have some Trials Fusion to play.
AFD
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Thanks! Are you running the 120mm or 140mm fan on the C12, and is it mounted directly to the heatsink or mounted on the fan rack?
I've been considering upgrading my 4770k to a 4790k, since the idle temps appear to be around 10C cooler (and similar, or just slightly hotter at stock load from most reviews.. plus it's moderately faster). Dunno.. ~100C is 10 to 20C above where I'd really like to be at stock when running benchmarks.
To reiterate what's been said (and with pics):
Reference vs. non-reference refers to the standard or reference PCB and cooler as designed by either AMD or nvidia. Neither company sell cards themselves (with a few exceptions). Instead, companies like ASUS, Gigabyte, EVGA, etc. release cards, either based on the reference design, or with their own customized version of the cooler and/or PCB. Most of the time, a "non-reference" card will still use the reference PCB, but with a different cooler.
Reference cards usually have centrifugal (AKA "blower," "squirrel cage") fan coolers, which are designed to push air laterally from the fan through a fin stack and out the back of the card:
Axial fan ("open") coolers are much more common on non-reference cards, and typically have 1-3 axial fans sitting on top of the heatsink fins:
The advantage of axial fan coolers is they tend to cool better and be quieter compared to centrifugal fan coolers. The disadvantage is that they dump all their hot exhaust into the case, relying on system fans to keep air moving through. The latter is sometimes a problem for smaller cases, where compact layouts preclude effective intake-exhaust fan placement. It's for this reason that axial fan coolers are not well-suited for the M1.
In addition, non-reference cards sometimes have wider coolers and/or PCBs (e.g., EVGA Classified cards), which may be too wide to properly clear the sidepanel in the M1. In contrast, reference cards almost always follow the PCIe electromechanical specifications, which the M1 was designed around. Currently, the best choice for an air cooled GPU in the M1 is any card using the nvidia reference Titan-style cooler (found on some GTX 780 and 770s):
Compared to the reference AMD blowers, the Titan cooler is significantly quieter.
As a sidenote, GPU waterblocks are usually designed for the reference PCB, so that's something to keep in mind if watercooling is a consideration.
drklu
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Quick question for H220 users. Does anyone have the screw length for mounting the H220 rad with the M1 dust filters? Just wanting to double check before I order new ones. I must have lost my originals, Swiftech's site says they are (8) 6-32 x 1 3/16 (30mm) but I'm thinking I will need longer ones with the dust covers plus the thickness of the mounting plate. If anyone knows which screws will work I would really appreciate it. Using AP-14 fans with the dust filters that came with the m1.
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I'm using the stock fan that came with the cooler mounted on the cooler itself. It's one of those 140mm fans with 120mm mounts. I've just finished a session of Trials Evolution (decided to give the older game a try) and maximum temps were 68ºC. The Computer is virtually silent. even the Corsair psu immits a very low sound.
Zangmonkey
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Has anybody put a Kraken G10 in an M1?
AFD
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Thanks again, appreciate it! Hmm.. that 4790k might be a little more heat than I'd like then (at load during Prime95). Especially since your C12 config should cool a little better than mine (120mm F12 mounted on side-rack w/gap). Dunno.. still might give it a try.
It might fit but it's going to be tight,
It is 5.4" wide compared to the max of 5.5" however that does not include the mounts for the water cooling you would be using, the card itself should fit but you won't be able to water cool it
It is 5.4" wide compared to the max of 5.5" however that does not include the mounts for the water cooling you would be using, the card itself should fit but you won't be able to water cool it
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Blorgon
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I hope you guys don't mind me bringing this up again, but my post kinda got buried a few pages back.
I'm wondering if those of you not watercooling your GPUs (and also using blower-style coolers) are also using an intake fan on the bottom of the case, and if there's a significant difference between using a fan to feed the blower versus letting the blower pull air in through the bottom of the case.
Again, I tried searching the thread, but was having a difficult time finding any results, only pictures of builds with this set up.
My main concern is whether a fan can even be effective that close to the card, and also if a smaller diameter fan would be better suited to directing airflow straight into the blower.
Thanks for your patience!
I'm wondering if those of you not watercooling your GPUs (and also using blower-style coolers) are also using an intake fan on the bottom of the case, and if there's a significant difference between using a fan to feed the blower versus letting the blower pull air in through the bottom of the case.
Again, I tried searching the thread, but was having a difficult time finding any results, only pictures of builds with this set up.
My main concern is whether a fan can even be effective that close to the card, and also if a smaller diameter fan would be better suited to directing airflow straight into the blower.
Thanks for your patience!