NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

Phuncz said:
it will never be easy I guess. Have you seen this one ?

http://www.ably.com.tw/pdt/viewpdt.asp?absp=28&cat=PCIE_RISER

While still not ideal, it might let you bend the cable enough under it and it has mounting holes.
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Ah, that one looks exactly like Delock's, so I guess you've found where Delock are sourcing them (because Delock explicitly state that it's an import from China or Taiwan).

It could work, unless it has the same problem as Delock's (which seems highly likely), i.e. that not all wires/pins are connected, and hence won't work with a graphics card. May also have problems with signal strength, though I find that a bit strange.
 
The website says a GPU with a blower design is recommended. Unfortunately the AMD reference design is the only one that has this type for their cards.

How do normal designs like say the tri-x/windforce/directcu etc cope in this case? I would probably be using a AIO like the H100i on my CPU.

Really a reference 780 Ti would be best from every perspective, but I'm seeing a great deal on a Sapphire 290X Tri-x which is supposedly a very cool and quiet design. Does the small size of the M1 negate this?
 
Phuncz said:
What I can see on the picture, all pins are connected. But that can also be said about the Delock one...
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The problem according to the reviewer on Amazon, is that some of the pins are terminated at the source, requiring a surface mount soldering iron and a steady hand to fix. That rules me out completely, with my regular old soldering iron and shaky hands. :D

I posted a question about this to Delock yesterday though, and will hopefully get a definitive answer sooner or later.

Aibohphobia said:
Here's a reversed angled extender that may work better then the normal angled extenders: http://www.ameri-rack.com/ARC1-PERX16A1-Cx_m.html, it's only rated for PCIe 2.0 though.

This is the place I got my extenders from and while I haven't tested this particular model the ones I got were high quality.
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Ok, thanks for the tip. The pci-e 2.0 rating might be troublesome though; I recall reading about a 85 Ohm cable impedance requirement for 3.0 devices to work properly, but not sure if that also applies to 2.0. Plugging a 3.0 device into a 3.0 slot via a 2.0 extender smells a bit problematic. But maybe not. :)
 
David164v8 said:
The website says a GPU with a blower design is recommended. Unfortunately the AMD reference design is the only one that has this type for their cards.

How do normal designs like say the tri-x/windforce/directcu etc cope in this case? I would probably be using a AIO like the H100i on my CPU.

Really a reference 780 Ti would be best from every perspective, but I'm seeing a great deal on a Sapphire 290X Tri-x which is supposedly a very cool and quiet design. Does the small size of the M1 negate this?
Click to expand...

I had a 290X Tri-X in my M1 for a couple of months. You don't want that. Heat. Immense heat. Painful heat. Turned the M1 into a toaster. :)

I have a reference 780 Ti now. Much better. Also more expensive, but I'd say it's worth it.
 
backfeed said:
I had a 290X Tri-X in my M1 for a couple of months. You don't want that. Heat. Immense heat. Painful heat. Turned the M1 into a toaster. :)

I have a reference 780 Ti now. Much better. Also more expensive, but I'd say it's worth it.
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Was it actually painful to touch? :eek: Did it still manage to be quieter than the reference 780 Ti? If it's only the case that gets hot, and not the card itself I don't really mind.
 
backfeed said:
Ok, thanks for the tip. The pci-e 2.0 rating might be troublesome though; I recall reading about a 85 Ohm cable impedance requirement for 3.0 devices to work properly, but not sure if that also applies to 2.0. Plugging a 3.0 device into a 3.0 slot via a 2.0 extender smells a bit problematic. But maybe not. :)
Click to expand...

On some boards you can manually set the slot to 2.0 mode in the BIOS.
 
David164v8 said:
Was it actually painful to touch? :eek: Did it still manage to be quieter than the reference 780 Ti? If it's only the case that gets hot, and not the card itself I don't really mind.
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I highly recommend the reference cooler, the Titan cooler is best for the moment. Otherwise, you'll have an oven in the case ,seriously think about this !
 
David164v8 said:
Was it actually painful to touch? :eek: Did it still manage to be quieter than the reference 780 Ti? If it's only the case that gets hot, and not the card itself I don't really mind.
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Yes (I'm talking about the top panel of the M1), though I didn't take any measurements.

The problem is not the graphics card itself, it'll do just fine. The problem is that everything else above it will be cooked, and if you have the psu intake on the inside of the case, it will use hot air to cool itself, which as you can imagine doesn't work very well (the fan will spin at max rpm, and the heat is probably not very good for the longevity of the psu components).

Since the fan in my 450W sfx psu is so horribly loud, overpowering everything else, I can't say if the reference cooler on the 780 Ti is louder than the Tri-X cooler on the 290X, though I think the Tri-X cooler SHOULD be more silent.
 
In most scenarios in the Ncase M1 you should install the SFX PSU so that it's fan is facing the outside of the case. Warm air of the CPU and GPU will be able to escape through the thousands of holes anyway, atleast let the PSU breathe cool air. It will also help reduce the PSU's fan noise most likely.
 
I've posted this before but I'll ask it again since we're on the topic. Why is an open cooler GPU design an issue when the case is so small that the fans can cycle the full volume of air multiple times per second? Yes I understand the heat will go through the case on its way out rather than directly out, but still, it doesn't seem that bad?
 
Because the hot air moving across your motherboard at a constant rate will keep heating up your other components, giving them a hard time to keep cool. most of the heat of the GPU will be trapped anyway, since that area doesn't have a real exhaust. This is negated by a blower-style cooler, because it acts as the intake itself and it blows the heat out at the back of the case.

People using a 240mm radiator also don't have this problem, due to the large amount of ventilation holes on two sides. This is all my assumption, I'm in no way an aerodynamic expert.
 
backfeed said:
Yes (I'm talking about the top panel of the M1), though I didn't take any measurements.

The problem is not the graphics card itself, it'll do just fine. The problem is that everything else above it will be cooked, and if you have the psu intake on the inside of the case, it will use hot air to cool itself, which as you can imagine doesn't work very well (the fan will spin at max rpm, and the heat is probably not very good for the longevity of the psu components).

Since the fan in my 450W sfx psu is so horribly loud, overpowering everything else, I can't say if the reference cooler on the 780 Ti is louder than the Tri-X cooler on the 290X, though I think the Tri-X cooler SHOULD be more silent.
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irek83 said:
I highly recommend the reference cooler, the Titan cooler is best for the moment. Otherwise, you'll have an oven in the case ,seriously think about this !
Click to expand...

Okay yeah the tri-x is definitely going to need rethinking. Maybe I'll just step down to the 780 reference.
 
I'm using the PowerColor PCS+ r9 290 open air. Bottom intake is needed to push the hot air out the upper part of the case, while it's not really needed for reference. But other components don't really get hot in the temperature readings. The top of the case will feel like it's a toaster under load but that's because of the amount of hot air passing through the aluminium every minute.
I still have a trauma over AMD's reference cooler noise, even though I know Titan cooler is a lot better, I refuse to touch a reference cooler. :D
 
Bobalias_LeShay said:
I've posted this before but I'll ask it again since we're on the topic. Why is an open cooler GPU design an issue when the case is so small that the fans can cycle the full volume of air multiple times per second? Yes I understand the heat will go through the case on its way out rather than directly out, but still, it doesn't seem that bad?
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Case fans will vent the whole case as you suggest. But as soon as you add the GPU you are compartmentalising the case into two. The fans on an open GPU will suck air from the bottom, but also create a low pressure zone. The effect is that some of the GPU exhaust air is pulled back underneath. To counteract that, you can make the case fans exhaust.
 
I was curious so I ran some (very) rough numbers. If you simplify the case volume to 15L and assume a 290X puts out 200W and the air is exchanged once per second (i.e. ~30CFM of flow), then you'd raise the temperature of the air by 11C. ( 200J / (15 Liters * 0.00121 J*cm^-3*K^-1) )

So that's considerable, but not really that much to worry about, since that's a hard gaming load. Also, it's not going to be heating the air evenly, so if you strategically place some exhaust fans I think you'd be fine.
 
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That's a gross simplification :)

Firstly heat transfer is not only by convection - heat by radiation is significant. Secondly, the convection isn't perfectly removing the heat, even if you would get 5000rpm fans. Thirdly, as I mentioned compartmentalisation means some heat is recycled.
 
WiSK said:
That's a gross simplification :)

Firstly heat transfer is not only by convection - heat by radiation is significant. Secondly, the convection isn't perfectly removing the heat, even if you would get 5000rpm fans. Thirdly, as I mentioned compartmentalisation means some heat is recycled.
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That's why I said "(very) rough" ;) What can I say, I'm an electrical/computer engineer, not a mech/chem one.

Seriously though, I can't imagine that radiation plays much factor at graphics card temperatures below 80C. You have to get things a lot more toasty than that before the radiation term becomes significant, no?

Also, I've realized this is a silly discussion, because there isn't any more heat coming out of the card than when it's in a larger case, so it can't be much worse.
 
irek83 said:
(DEMCiflex REF NO: 03744)
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I got in contact with Roxanne from DEMCiflex and referenced your order number. She told me the following:

Thank you for the info.

I had a look at his order and cutfiles, and the exact measurements we used for his filter were as below:

Maybe there was a mistake when re-typing the dimensions.



1 x DEMCiflex Filter Non-Ferrous Black/black O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each

Postage USD 13.11



If he said that this filter fits fine, then you can also go ahead with the order.

Would you be able to check to see if those I/D measurements are correct?
 
I'm interested why do you believe heat by radiation is only significant above 80C?

If you doubt that open blowers are no different in a small case than a large case, it can easily be proved emperically :)
 
Ace of Six said:
I got in contact with Roxanne from DEMCiflex and referenced your order number. She told me the following:

Thank you for the info.

I had a look at his order and cutfiles, and the exact measurements we used for his filter were as below:

Maybe there was a mistake when re-typing the dimensions.



1 x DEMCiflex Filter Non-Ferrous Black/black O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each

Postage USD 13.11



If he said that this filter fits fine, then you can also go ahead with the order.

Would you be able to check to see if those I/D measurements are correct?
Click to expand...

That seems different than what was quoted here:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040928629&postcount=12180
 
Ace of Six said:
I got in contact with Roxanne from DEMCiflex and referenced your order number. She told me the following:

Thank you for the info.

I had a look at his order and cutfiles, and the exact measurements we used for his filter were as below:

Maybe there was a mistake when re-typing the dimensions.



1 x DEMCiflex Filter Non-Ferrous Black/black O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each

Postage USD 13.11



If he said that this filter fits fine, then you can also go ahead with the order.

Would you be able to check to see if those I/D measurements are correct?
Click to expand...


Sorry, my mistake :( here are the correct dimensions :


1 x DEMCiflex Filter Ferrous Black/black O/D 280mm x 150mm (I/D 252mm x 122mm) @ USD 10.55 each
1 x DEMCiflex Filter Ferrous Black/black O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each
1 x DEMCiflex Filter Ferrous Black/black O/D 100mm x 90mm (I/D 80mm x 70mm) @ USD 2.56 each
 
Curiositie said:
The original quote says:

O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 262mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each

The one Roxanne pulled up was:

O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each


So the I/D is different between them.
262x102mm vs 242x102mm.
Click to expand...

Yes,
correct size 1 x DEMCiflex Filter Ferrous Black/black O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each

I copied the message from Roxanne and I overlooked mistake, sorry.
 
cowsgomoo said:
I'm using the PowerColor PCS+ r9 290 open air. Bottom intake is needed to push the hot air out the upper part of the case, while it's not really needed for reference. But other components don't really get hot in the temperature readings. The top of the case will feel like it's a toaster under load but that's because of the amount of hot air passing through the aluminium every minute.
I still have a trauma over AMD's reference cooler noise, even though I know Titan cooler is a lot better, I refuse to touch a reference cooler. :D
Click to expand...

How does your PSU get on? Perhaps I could get away with the Tri-x after all using a bottom fan and the PSU drawing air from outside the case. I'm sure the temps won't be great but as long as it stays relatively quiet I can't justify spending the extra £100 on a nVidia card.
 
David164v8 said:
How does your PSU get on? Perhaps I could get away with the Tri-x after all using a bottom fan and the PSU drawing air from outside the case. I'm sure the temps won't be great but as long as it stays relatively quiet I can't justify spending the extra £100 on a nVidia card.
Click to expand...

I'm using the bronze 450W PSU. Mine is also drawing air from outside the case. Power draw max out at 410W at the wall running Furmark only.
 
irek83 said:
Yes,
correct size 1 x DEMCiflex Filter Ferrous Black/black O/D 270mm x 130mm (I/D 242mm x 102mm) @ USD 9.17 each

I copied the message from Roxanne and I overlooked mistake, sorry.
Click to expand...

So the top filter dimension is O/D 280x150mm?
 
Mind you that it isn't a true SFX spec PSU, it's 20mm longer. Although TechPowerup says differently, the Silverstone SX600-G will still be the true SFX king.
 
Which features a 120mm fan, not a 80mm fan. Most complaints about the 450W SFX PSU was the fan noise (bigger fan should help a lot) and that it's just enough for a high-end reference GPU with high-end consumer CPU without overclocking. The 500W SFX-L solves the fan issue and the Watt issue partially, the 600W SFX solves the Watt issue completely and the fan issue partially.

This 650W SFX-"M" (L is already taken :p) still has a small fan and it's slightly better than the 600W. Although the quality is still unknown for all these units. But the thing I know is that I'll be able to buy the SX600-G before the end of the summer, while we might never see the Dirac PSU, along with all those other "600W+" SFX PSU's (that people were drooling about last year) in any brick&mortar store or even a webshop in the same continent. Unless you live in Asia ofcourse.
 
Are fan filters a necessity for this type of case? I see a lot of people buying the Demciflex filters. I personally have never seen any dust in my PC, and it's not like I keep my room meticulously clean. Maybe it was just the case design (NZXT Phantom 410) and number of fans I had installed.
 
The 600W SFX from SilverStone will be silent most of the time right? Its fan only runs once internal temps. get higher?
 
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