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NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
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Phuncz
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I haven't done it but there is no reason to think it will perform much worse than it would in an (m)ATX case. It might even do better in some 'cases' with a 120mm fan in the sidepanel just above the cooler.
quest_for_silence
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Hi Phuncz:
can you kindly point me out where I can find the rev2 actual differences (if any) in the >500 thread pages?
Best regards,
Luca
ITALY
He can't, because I haven't posted the final changes for M1 v2 yet. Discussions regarding many of them are in this thread. The changes are all small adjustments to the design - nothing major. Edit: just updated that thread with the expected changes.
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quest_for_silence
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Thanks for the prompt answer, Necere, much appreciated.
Here's photos of my Hackintosh/Gaming system Build. Specs below. It's an absolute dream system in a perfect form factor.
Mobo: GA-Z87N-WIFI
Cpu: i7 4770k @ 4.5ghz 1.28v
Cooler: Cooler Master Glacer 240L (It's great but the pump is a bit loud
Fans: 2X Gentle Typhoon AP14s and a slimline 92mm Noctua for my GPU (tried another AP40 but it was loud for my tastes.
Gfx: EVGA GTX Titan SC
Ram: 16gb Crucial low profile Ballistix
SSD: Windows 7 1TB Samsung 840 EVO | OSX 500GB Samsung 840
Driven to a Dell U3011 and a Asus vg248qe
Mobo: GA-Z87N-WIFI
Cpu: i7 4770k @ 4.5ghz 1.28v
Cooler: Cooler Master Glacer 240L (It's great but the pump is a bit loud
Fans: 2X Gentle Typhoon AP14s and a slimline 92mm Noctua for my GPU (tried another AP40 but it was loud for my tastes.
Gfx: EVGA GTX Titan SC
Ram: 16gb Crucial low profile Ballistix
SSD: Windows 7 1TB Samsung 840 EVO | OSX 500GB Samsung 840
Driven to a Dell U3011 and a Asus vg248qe
AFD
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Nice build! Just wondering, are you using the VLP Ballistix Sports or the yellow LP Ballistix Tactical?
Anyone know the screw sizes for the feet?
Edit: found them, http://www.focusattack.com/40mm-black-aluminum-anti-slip-joystick-case-feet-set-of-4/ not sure how to delete this post
Edit: found them, http://www.focusattack.com/40mm-black-aluminum-anti-slip-joystick-case-feet-set-of-4/ not sure how to delete this post
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Phuncz
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I'm quoting and replying to a post made in the Ncase M1 Improvement suggestions topic that should belong here:
Some people disagree with me on the bottom fans and I can't deny it's a preference and situational thing. But seeying my rig as an example, it is perfectly possible to run high-end hardware in this case with a minimum of fans with very low noise (960rpm on the the fans at idle/browsing). I dislike adding hardware for the sake of feeding the habbit (filling every slot with fans), because they tend to be points of failure, generate noise and needlessly fill up the very little room the case has left.
Since this case has a lot of ventilation holes (top, sides, rear, bottom), you can't really create a "windtunnel" (having equal volume intake and exhaust fans) but the case still has a lot of ways to get rid of the heat because of this "open" design. So just placing intake fans will do, preferably with dust filters if you dislike cleaning it regularly.
But high end GPU's have been the top heat sources in a PC for a while now, the high end single-GPU cards are using 2 to 3 times more power. So in my opinion, you are best off with a loop for your CPU and GPU.
But you negate a lot of these with just the fans on the side panel because they blow over almost your entire motherboard. The only problem are 3,5" mechanical drives but I'm also very opposed to them inside this case (having a NAS on a Gbit network solves that completely unless you travel with your PC).
Thanks, I am very happy with it, it performs better than expected !
It is dependent on your GPU choice if you value quietness, I'd never again go with an reference Radeon R9-290 series card because their cooler is bad. I'd go with a reference GTX 780 (Ti) or an R9 290 with a good open-style cooling (all non-reference ones). Or a full block watercooled GTX 780 or R9 290, if we are looking at the high-end solutions. But you wouldn't need bottom fans for those setups.
Some people disagree with me on the bottom fans and I can't deny it's a preference and situational thing. But seeying my rig as an example, it is perfectly possible to run high-end hardware in this case with a minimum of fans with very low noise (960rpm on the the fans at idle/browsing). I dislike adding hardware for the sake of feeding the habbit (filling every slot with fans), because they tend to be points of failure, generate noise and needlessly fill up the very little room the case has left.
Since this case has a lot of ventilation holes (top, sides, rear, bottom), you can't really create a "windtunnel" (having equal volume intake and exhaust fans) but the case still has a lot of ways to get rid of the heat because of this "open" design. So just placing intake fans will do, preferably with dust filters if you dislike cleaning it regularly.
I disagree on this point as using a CLC just for the CPU is not needed, unless you are going to do serious overclocking. A good Noctua CPU cooler will do that job just fine.
But high end GPU's have been the top heat sources in a PC for a while now, the high end single-GPU cards are using 2 to 3 times more power. So in my opinion, you are best off with a loop for your CPU and GPU.
The trouble with watercooling is that you sometimes forget that other components also need to be cooled, like the storage drives, voltage components and chipsets.
But you negate a lot of these with just the fans on the side panel because they blow over almost your entire motherboard. The only problem are 3,5" mechanical drives but I'm also very opposed to them inside this case (having a NAS on a Gbit network solves that completely unless you travel with your PC).
The fans on my H220 are in a pull configuration, both these and the PSU fan are installed as intakes.
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Gotta stuff every hole with fans.
To me, it's a form of cheating where one leaves a very important part of the PC out of the case while in the pursuit of size/noise/performance, like "hey guys, look how quiet and powerful my case is, I'm just leaving the storage out of my system, that's all!" Why not go one step further and use an external PSU and make the case even smaller? Or move the entire liquid cooling system out of the case and make that even smaller? To me that's no point if a person's entire computing experience is not contained within the tiny box, of which storage is an important part of.
To me, it's a form of cheating where one leaves a very important part of the PC out of the case while in the pursuit of size/noise/performance, like "hey guys, look how quiet and powerful my case is, I'm just leaving the storage out of my system, that's all!" Why not go one step further and use an external PSU and make the case even smaller? Or move the entire liquid cooling system out of the case and make that even smaller? To me that's no point if a person's entire computing experience is not contained within the tiny box, of which storage is an important part of.
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AFD
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^Lol, at the fans on that.
I have 4 fans in my M1, and there's still plenty of space to work around them, and even at full tilt the noise isn't bad at all. To lower the speed, or turn them off entirely via BIOS is a trivial process. Do you need 4 or 5 fans in the M1? No, probably not.
If adding 5 fans and 2 mechanical hard drives makes you happy, then go for it.. it's your money, your case, and the M1 is designed to fit them if so desired. You don't see me giving guys shit for squeezing in a monster foot-long GPU card and watercooling in their M1, just cause there's room for it
I do agree with Phuncz statement that such things are a preference.
I have 4 fans in my M1, and there's still plenty of space to work around them, and even at full tilt the noise isn't bad at all. To lower the speed, or turn them off entirely via BIOS is a trivial process. Do you need 4 or 5 fans in the M1? No, probably not.
If adding 5 fans and 2 mechanical hard drives makes you happy, then go for it.. it's your money, your case, and the M1 is designed to fit them if so desired. You don't see me giving guys shit for squeezing in a monster foot-long GPU card and watercooling in their M1, just cause there's room for it
I do agree with Phuncz statement that such things are a preference.
Phuncz
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Maybe with one drive, but considering my NAS is made out of six 2TB drives in RAID-Z2 configuration, netting around 8TB with two drive redundancy and available over my entire network, I must disagree.
PlayfulPhoenix
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I completely relate to the idea that putting in stuff for the sake of filling a space is needless and wasteful. The reason I am hoping to have two bottom fans is something I'll elaborate on in a moment, but I recall a friend with a modified (and gargantuan) CM tower that had at least twelve fans, some of them well over 140mm - and he complained that the airflow was poor. After removing four of them, his temps improved, because the prior arrangement basically did a fantastic job of recirculating hot air around the case... And keeping it in there
I disagree a tad here - with a rad and fans (more on this in a bit) covering one side, and the motherboard and PSU covering the other, I would think that bottom fans would allow for good upwards airflow that would at least keep temps of non-CPU/GPU components from ever becoming an issue. For a non-water-cooled GPU, you would have the added benefit of better intake. The exhaust would effectively be the top and the side if you treated it as such.
In the past I've let the GPU stay as-is, and overclocked the CPU. But I admit that I've been slowly convincing myself to get the CM Glacier 240l and incorporate the GPU into the loop. It would at the very least be a new experience - I've only ever used AIO loops as far as WC has been concerned.
I'd go SSD only for local storage - I just don't have that much data anyway. All my media is stored elsewhere. (This is why I was advocating for the removable 2.5" bracket in the front of the case, where the GPU access cutout is). But I have never liked the idea of having a radiator and fan act as the intake for a computer, since you are pumping every bit of heat generated by the loop back into the box. Although the GPU would obstruct the bottom fans somewhat, my initial impression is that two bottom intakes, with the side fans and radiator acting as an exhaust, would be the best possible arrangement. There would probably be some resultant airflow and radiation out of the top as well... Plus, with that many fans you could probably get away with spinning them a little slower, which would negate noise increases, or perhaps lower overall noise.
I much appreciate your input, Phuncz! And your sharing your own experience with the case. Thanks again!
I disagree insofar as storage and data is concerned. Most people have the majority of their data footprint belonging to media, and it is more accessible to more devices (as well as easier to make redundant, access remotely, etc) if you put that on a cloud service, or even a NAS. Furthermore, if your computer dies, you lose data access, period - offloading the information to a dedicated service/devices eliminates that problem, and reduces the chances of ever being unable to access it.
I totally understand the principal and philosophy of doing it all in one box, but the practical reality of everyday life encourages certain degrees of separation for specific needs. With data, a single box can only ever be so redundant.
AFD
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Or.. you can store your data both on the M1 *and* on a NAS (or in the cloud, or on other computers). Data redundancy can be a good thing
Phuncz
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Yes, if you need that drive to be in the Ncase because you go to LAN-parties or move around a lot with your PC. Otherwise a cloud service (like PlayfulPhoenix mentions), external drive or a(nother) NAS will still be a better choice for a backup of your data, in my opinion. There is no need for internal HDD's when a halfway decent NAS can provide your files at 50-100MB/s.
Bobalias_LeShay
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I don't know about you, but I haven't had a spinning platter drive in any desktop I've built in quite some time. SSDs are plenty large to be your only storage, unless you have an egregious amount of media, in which case you probably need a NAS anyway.
AFD
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Think if I was going to be moving my M1 around a lot, I'd probably prefer to go with SSD only.. lighter, and less chance of damaging the mechanical HDD. But since my M1 is mostly going to stay in one place, I'm using large low-power HDDs (in addition to SSD & NAS) mostly as temporary storage, but also as a secondary backup for some of my NAS data (also plan on getting a 2nd NAS eventually).
The additional noise and power draw is negligible, and my front-bottom fan should easily push the added heat out the top of the case (I'm going for a mini GPU, solely because I value storage space over gaming capability.. many folks are probably the opposite). For many, getting 100MB/s+ from adding an internal HDD is also insanely cheaper than investing in a high-quality NAS.
Different strokes for different folks, and the number of fans and drive selection for this particular case really isn't that big of a deal one way or the other.. if it was a smaller, more limited case design, then yes. But for the M1, I think it really boils down to what a person needs (or wants) and of course, what their budget and other component selections are.
It doesn't look like that person completed the build. The pictures are all just there for sizing. There's no pump, the tubes are not connected. In short, I don't think we have seen any evidence of a running NCase M1 with 2 Radiators.
PlayfulPhoenix
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Out of curiosity I've been trying to find someone - anyone - who has said they have done this, or has pictures demonstrating as such. So far, no dice. That thread is the closest, but isn't of a functioning (let alone functional, practically speaking) unit. If only I knew Chinese!
Let's be honest, though...That's probably for the best. I mean, one dual radiator in this size of case is pretty crazy. But two is just ridiculous. To wit: if you had a pie chart representing how much volume everything took up, nearly 20% of the computer would be radiators and fans! It would literally challenge open air for the most prominent thing in the case by volume.
That said, the crazy system builder inside me wonders about the possibility of using a Cooler Master Glacer 240L, and having that run through the CPU, GPU, the provided dual-radiator (on the side), and a second thinner radiator with dual-fans at the bottom. The pump can certainly handle it - it's more powerful than the H220 which can run through three blocks and three radiators. And you would have the convenience and space savings of an AIO (no bulky reservoir or pump to mount since they are both integrated into the loop).
Only real issue beyond the routing of tubing would be interference of the inlet/outlet of the bottom radiator with the front I/O, assuming a single-slot-thickness video card and thin fans...
...Well, that, and the ridiculousness (again) of the idea.
But that at least would be the least ridiculous way to go about it, I think.PlayfulPhoenix
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Irek83, a casual Google search yields a card length of 11", and a card height of 4.95" for the Classified 680. Strike that, see Necere's post below. I went off of this (incorrect) Anandtech review.
The Indiegogo page for the M1 says the following on GPU compatibility:
GPU:
Rear exhaust cards recommended.
Max length: 12.5" (slots 1 & 2), 11" (slot 3)
Max width:
-For cards up to 11.5" in the first or second slot: 5.5" (4.7" at the PCIe power connectors)
-For cards up to 12.5" or cards in the third slot: 4.4"
Rear exhaust cards recommended.
Max length: 12.5" (slots 1 & 2), 11" (slot 3)
Max width:
-For cards up to 11.5" in the first or second slot: 5.5" (4.7" at the PCIe power connectors)
-For cards up to 12.5" or cards in the third slot: 4.4"
Though I'm not sure if clearance will be an issue with the plugs, it seems like it should fit fine.
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PlayfulPhoenix
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Wiregen, how loud are the fans for the rad? And can you describe the noise the pump makes? Are you running it pretty hard?
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Hi, this is my M1. I don't know with graphics card would be best for my config. I think about gtx 770 with the reference cooling. Maybe in the future install water block but i'm still not believe about good temps. Here is someone who can do a temps and noise tests with H220 on the CPU and GPU ? Stress tests have not seen here.I will be very grateful for the honest test, may OCCT, games, blu ray.
adudeinblue
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I finally got my GPU integrated into my H220 loop last Friday and everything was doing great. The most noise I can hear was actually the Silverstone SFX PSU. That fan is loud. But unfortunately today my mobo couldn't power the H220 Pump. I tried it in all the fan pins and none was able to power it.
I think I'm going start a RMA with swiftech after I get in touch with them tomorrow but I'm hoping people with longer history with their h220 loops with happy stories do exist? And I hope that most of these bad pumps are one in a hundred odd number pumps. I love the H220 but I feel like if it's gonna fail again, I need to plan what pump and res I should get next.
I think I'm going start a RMA with swiftech after I get in touch with them tomorrow but I'm hoping people with longer history with their h220 loops with happy stories do exist? And I hope that most of these bad pumps are one in a hundred odd number pumps. I love the H220 but I feel like if it's gonna fail again, I need to plan what pump and res I should get next.
voklskier4452
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Question for those of you running the h220 and particularly those of you who are cooling GPU and CPU with the h220. How are you all filling the loop if you have had to drain it. I am used to having a reservoir when running water cooling. I am considering this as an upgrade to my system for the summer since I will be running an R9 290 and 4770k and my case will be getting toasty without some better cooling.
I'm running a 680 (older 770) and I'll run Intel's Burn Test and Furmark at the same time for 30 min. My 4670k stays a bit under 50C and my 680 thats oc'd and bios moded stays under 55C. it's dead quiet. Not silent, but if you have any sort of volume going through a video/game/music it will be louder than the H220.
I do have the fans replaced with GT's and I did the fan mod on the PSU as well.
My RMA experience was pretty awful. Quick summary http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040672869&postcount=53
Just recently received my replacement after about 6 weeks. Actually seems to be working quite a bit better vs my original one. They told me it was a newer revision so I was ok with waiting if it's going to continue to work.
It's a pain. The H220 has a res built into the rad but it's not that nice. I'm fairly confident it wasn't going to leak and had assembled the whole thing, then filled the rad, and it's a lot of picking up and rotating from there. Then I quickly power it on a few times to get it mostly full and you have to continue rotating to work the air bubbles into the rad. PITA
1 tip....put a few drops of water into the "in" part of the H220 before connecting it. If you do that, it will usually prevent air from getting trapped and you'll avoid the gurgling sound
AFD
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Just wanted to give you guys a heads-up that the Panasonic UJ-265 and UJ-8C5 slim slot-loading optical drives (the same ones we got from the group deal from Digistor, and I think the same ones used in the EVGA and Silverstone drives) have just been announced as end-of-life/discontinued by Panasonic, with no plans for future replacements at this time.
I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like Panasonic might be getting out of the slim ODD market, leaving only the very expensive TEAC models for us to buy.
If this is the case, it might be wise for the guys planning on purchasing the future M1 v2 and needing an ODD, to purchase theirs sooner rather than later.
TL;DR - Slim slot-load optical drives may be harder to find in the future.
I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like Panasonic might be getting out of the slim ODD market, leaving only the very expensive TEAC models for us to buy.
If this is the case, it might be wise for the guys planning on purchasing the future M1 v2 and needing an ODD, to purchase theirs sooner rather than later.
TL;DR - Slim slot-load optical drives may be harder to find in the future.
Hi guys,
Still debating whether to go air or water with my M1.
With silence in mind, water will be a good option for the GPU.
A plus would be helping to get a decent o/c on a CPU.
I know Phuncz is happy with his H220 cooling both GPU and CPU, but according to that review http://www.thinkcomputers.org/swiftech-h220-adding-to-the-loop/6/, an AIO like the H220 is not able to cool properly both a GPU and an o/c CPU.
Do you think a custom loop will do it thanks to a deeper rad (29mm for the H220) and a bigger res?
If so, should I order the M1 res at frozenq ? I see someone here have a leaking unit, bad luck or product to stay away from?
Any other res recommanded?
Best rad that fit? What is the thickness limit btw? 35mm max or under 40mm?
Still debating whether to go air or water with my M1.
With silence in mind, water will be a good option for the GPU.
A plus would be helping to get a decent o/c on a CPU.
I know Phuncz is happy with his H220 cooling both GPU and CPU, but according to that review http://www.thinkcomputers.org/swiftech-h220-adding-to-the-loop/6/, an AIO like the H220 is not able to cool properly both a GPU and an o/c CPU.
Do you think a custom loop will do it thanks to a deeper rad (29mm for the H220) and a bigger res?
If so, should I order the M1 res at frozenq ? I see someone here have a leaking unit, bad luck or product to stay away from?
Any other res recommanded?
Best rad that fit? What is the thickness limit btw? 35mm max or under 40mm?
Temps are good, similar to what I get in my build at load (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e--k2WPimrg). I'm in the 30C's at idle. Long as you far away from 80C.
That's the FrozenQ reservoir for the M1, which you can get through their site. We (w360 and I) aren't involved with it. It was created by another user here, Adamantium.
Geoffrey4283
Weaksauce
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Sold separately.
Searching this thread (or the internet) for "FrozenQ", would be a good place to start.
/beaten to it by the ever-helpful, near god-like Necere, praise be unto him who made this awesome case.
Thanks, but I should give credit where it's due and say that this project wouldn't have happened without w360's drive and tenacity to see it through, and of course, the continuing support of the community. I'm only one part of the larger picture that brought this case into being.
First of all congratulations on the awesome case. I only just started looking at SFF but there is no question that this is exactly what I wanted. I will be buying one in the next round for sure.
Second I'm trying to keep costs down and I already have a 750W non-modular Corsair PSU like this:
I read that a non-modular ATX case should fit but it sure looks like it's going to be hard to tuck that jungle of cables away. Has anybody tried?
Second I'm trying to keep costs down and I already have a 750W non-modular Corsair PSU like this:
I read that a non-modular ATX case should fit but it sure looks like it's going to be hard to tuck that jungle of cables away. Has anybody tried?
To be precise, a non-modular ATX PSU with a maximum length of 140mm (5.5") will fit. That's if you want to use a GPU longer than 200mm (7.87"). If you use a shorter GPU you can use a longer and/or modular ATX PSU.
Using an ATX PSU also takes up the front half of the side fan bracket, which means you can't use a dual radiator or the 3.5" HDD cage there. So you have to pick and choose what you want, and plan accordingly.
As far as cables: I've done it, and I really, really, don't recommend using an ATX PSU in the case unless you mod the cables (or are using a modular PSU w/short GPU). It's a giant pain all around. Here's the non-modular 140mm long PSU I used, with unmodded cables:
Looks okay, but was it ever a pain. You can also see how there's very little space between the PSU and the video card. That's what prevents a longer or modular PSU being used. As an example of a longer PSU in the case, see this post.
Edit: not sure whose build this, but here's another pic I saved showing an ATX PSU and short GPU installed:
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