NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

xDezor said:
Well that sucks... Why'd I wait till today to check the forum! I can't believe I was literally 1 day too late to order, I would have bought one in an instant. :eek:

And before anyone asks, I didn't have any real "disposable" income before to help fund the project...
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No worries, no one expects you to go into debt just to get this case. If you didn't have the money to spend, you should not even consider it and certainly not feel bad about it. There are more important things in life than a computer case. Even an awesome one like the Ncase M1 :)
 
Yippie Ka Yee motherfuckers!

I'm a tech freak and wanne build something insane in this case!

I'm gone read trough ALL of the pages on my mobile in the train to and from work everyday.

I was planning on a fx-8350 sli 770/7970 build before this case got my attention. Now im planning on intel 4670/4770 and nvidia 780/(ati 7990 that wont fit or will it?)

Or in january we will have the new ati cards? Newer cpu's? I'm drooling already.

Anyhow, my budget needs to go up, but it will be worth it as this project will me more of a hobby for me than actually wanting to make a simple powerfull gaming rig.

I want it all! All console emulators on it, steam, origin, wireless controllers for multiplayer sessions. Extra storage for porn/music/video's. Is it januari already???
 
Easy there, ADHD symptoms are showing :p

At the moment the AMD HD 7990 is a nice price/performance card when only one PCIe slot is available but it is probably too much for the recommended PSU's (Silverstone SFX 450W). Newer GPU's are expected to be launched in the next few months but if they are new or just a rebrand is still to be seen. I certainly hope AMD can put some pressure on Nvidia and keep them from dozing off.

I'm going for a GTX780 because it will be plenty for GTA 5 and BF4 (the games I'll be playing the coming year) most likely, being a high-end card. Intel isn't really pressured by AMD's lack of good (100+W doesn't count) perfomance CPU's to force Intel to refresh early, so we're probably almost a year away from a new CPU. And even then, it's not certain what they will do, Intel has been vague about it's desktop CPU future.
 
Lord_Vale3 said:
GTX 780 also has what is probably the best blower cooler ever created, which is ideal for this case.
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About this; Does anyone have a hunch how the H220 (on CPU+GPU) will compare to the reference cooler on 770/780/Titan?
 
xinux said:
About this; Does anyone have a hunch how the H220 (on CPU+GPU) will compare to the reference cooler on 770/780/Titan?
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My guess is it would run hotter, I'm going to throw another 120mm rad /w a slim fan below the graphics card.
 
xinux said:
About this; Does anyone have a hunch how the H220 (on CPU+GPU) will compare to the reference cooler on 770/780/Titan?
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GPUs pretty much always run cooler when water cooled than stock air. This because the die is big and the heat is spread out. Pretty sure you'll be looking at less than 60C on your Titan compared with whatever it does on air (70C+ ?).

Apples to oranges I know but my 660ti stays under 50C on a single 120 rad even when my i7 is loaded as well.
 
Yeah! Just ordered my NH-C12P SE14 heatsink (not using the 140mm fan), x3 NF-F12 fans (x2 for bottom intake, x1 for side intake/C12 cooling) & 1x NF-A9x14 for rear exhaust.

Now just need PSU, RAM, SSD/HDD, ODD, OS & random doo-dads. Oh, and the M1.. I'll probably need that at some point :D

Hey Necere, could you clarify what "All screws and mounting hardware" included means? Does this also include those tiny slot-load mounting screws, or any SSD/HDD mounting screws and/or rubber isolation washers? Thanks!
 
AFD said:
Hey Necere, could you clarify what "All screws and mounting hardware" included means? Does this also include those tiny slot-load mounting screws, or any SSD/HDD mounting screws and/or rubber isolation washers? Thanks!
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Yes, the M2 screws for the slim optical drive are included. There's also M3, 6-32, and M4 screws, plus a bunch of the rubber washers for drive mounting.
 
Necere said:
Yes, the M2 screws for the slim optical drive are included. There's also M3, 6-32, and M4 screws, plus a bunch of the rubber washers for drive mounting.
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Sweet, thanks for the info!
 
WiSK said:
GPUs pretty much always run cooler when water cooled than stock air. This because the die is big and the heat is spread out. Pretty sure you'll be looking at less than 60C on your Titan compared with whatever it does on air (70C+ ?).

Apples to oranges I know but my 660ti stays under 50C on a single 120 rad even when my i7 is loaded as well.
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My Titan goes up to 84C when benchmarking.
I'm just a tiny bit worried it would be a downgrade, but looking at your numbers, that probably won't be the case.

edit: Or will it? I can't risk it. Cancelled my order on the H220.
Looking back at Necere's watercooling test, he got the 7970 to 77C during furmark.. the Titan probably runs hotter..

drklu said:
My guess is it would run hotter, I'm going to throw another 120mm rad /w a slim fan below the graphics card.
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You mean you're going to add another rad to a H220 loop? With CPU+GPU?

edit 2: I got another idea. I could run the H220 on the GPU only, and my current Antec 620 on the CPU.
Thoughts? Will it fit?
 
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Might work if you somehow mount the 620 in the bottom of the case but it won't be ideal.
 
SithSolo1 said:
Might work if you somehow mount the 620 in the bottom of the case but it won't be ideal.
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Hmm, I guess.

Custom loop seems to be the only alternative to effectively cool both cpu and gpu for overclocking, though I haven't built one before..
Would a custom loop be a lot better than the H220 though?
Maybe it was wishful thinking to be able to overclock both my titan and cpu..
 
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I'm really trying to understand how Necere's 7970 got to 77C on stock clocks with only Furmark running. His hardware is producing only ~100W more heat than mine, yet he needed twice the rad and fans running at full to cool it.

Thing about the H220 is that it uses components that would be adequate for a custom loop. The pump is better than any XSPC or Phoyba kit pump, so is the CPU block, and the fans are pretty good too. The radiator is old fashioned design, but doesn't matter so much. So what are you gaining with a custom loop? You can put a full copper rad instead of brass, but then you have to find space for a separate reservoir.

Drklu's idea of an extra 120 rad is interesting, but if it's only got space for thin fans and it would blow against the GPU, then I'm not sure what gain it is.
 
WiSK said:
GPUs pretty much always run cooler when water cooled than stock air. This because the die is big and the heat is spread out. Pretty sure you'll be looking at less than 60C on your Titan compared with whatever it does on air (70C+ ?).
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That is a strange statement, since it seems that water jets were developed to aid in cooling a smaller surface better, because bigger dies are actually easier to cool. Most cooling solutions, based air or water, are basically just transfering the heat from the base to a bigger cooling area. As long as the die isn't bigger than the base, it will be able to extract heat optimally (barring bad design). But a too small of a die in contrast to the base will mean that only a portion of the base is being used.

WiSK said:
Thing about the H220 is that it uses components that would be adequate for a custom loop. The pump is better than any XSPC or Phoyba kit pump, so is the CPU block, and the fans are pretty good too. The radiator is old fashioned design, but doesn't matter so much. So what are you gaining with a custom loop?
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While I agree with you that the H220 is very good, I cannot support the statement that the type or quality of the radiator "doesn't matter so much". It is the part that transfers the heat from the water to air, so it does matter much. You can have the best cooling block, the largest tubes and the best pump in the world, if your radiator is too small or inefficient, it won't be able to dissipate the heat optimally.
 
Phuncz said:
That is a strange statement, since it seems that water jets were developed to aid in cooling a smaller surface better, because bigger dies are actually easier to cool. Most cooling solutions, based air or water, are basically just transfering the heat from the base to a bigger cooling area. As long as the die isn't bigger than the base, it will be able to extract heat optimally (barring bad design). But a too small of a die in contrast to the base will mean that only a portion of the base is being used.
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Not sure what you're driving at. I meant GPU dies are bigger than CPU dies. Titan is like 560mm2 while i7-3770K is like 160mm2. So it is able to transfer a lot more of its heat into the waterblock plate. Also the hot areas are spread better around on GPU, while on CPU the cores are bunched together in one quarter of the die area. This is why you tend to get much more impressive temps cooling a GPU than a CPU.

Phuncz said:
While I agree with you that the H220 is very good, I cannot support the statement that the type or quality of the radiator "doesn't matter so much". It is the part that transfers the heat from the water to air, so it does matter much. You can have the best cooling block, the largest tubes and the best pump in the world, if your radiator is too small or inefficient, it won't be able to dissipate the heat optimally.
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You are talking about a difference of a few degrees, and the MCR220-QP-RES-R2 on which the H220 is based is by no means "inefficient". What is old fashioned about it, is the use of brass tubes rather than copper tubes. The Alphacool ST30 would have a the edge on this rad, but we're not talking 10C, only a few degrees.

Much more significant is fin density and how fast you run your fans.
 
WiSK said:
Not sure what you're driving at.
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I wasn't driving at anything, but you make claims that defy physics and are the opposite of the experience I have and others have taught me.

WiSK said:
I meant GPU dies are bigger than CPU dies. Titan is like 560mm2 while i7-3770K is like 160mm2. So it is able to transfer a lot more of its heat into the waterblock plate. Also the hot areas are spread better around on GPU, while on CPU the cores are bunched together in one quarter of the die area.
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That's because a Titan pulls about 250W and a Core i7-3770K about 75W. So that die that's about 4 times bigger also pulls about 4 times as much power.

WiSK said:
This is why you tend to get much more impressive temps cooling a GPU than a CPU.
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You get better results with GPU's because they produce much more heat in general. You'll rarely see a GTX 650 (~65W) watercooled.
You also can see this with overclocked CPU's, watercooling shines with overclocking because of it's thermal headroom and capacity. It's only when you have huge air coolers that you see this too. Because of the relationship between surface area.

WiSK said:
You are talking about a difference of a few degrees, and the MCR220-QP-RES-R2 on which the H220 is based is by no means "inefficient". What is old fashioned about it, is the use of brass tubes rather than copper tubes. The Alphacool ST30 would have a the edge on this rad, but we're not talking 10C, only a few degrees.
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I didn't say the H220's radiator was inefficient, I only said that the radiator has much more to do with cooling than you say it has. If the radiator has little more to offer in terms of cooling, why don't people just use insanely powerful pumps and huge blocks ? Because those two components only pull the heat away from the CPU, but not dissipate it into the air that needs to be expelled.

WiSK said:
Much more significant is fin density and how fast you run your fans.
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A high fin density will ofcourse help performance (more surface area), but only with high static pressure fans, not just "fast" fans. If you want to use low static pressure fans, you require less dense radiators but larger ones.
 
This is how I plan to run both CPU & GPU watercooling. Use this Swiftech kit then add a second 120mm rad to the loop. Regarding the clearance issues with the fan and gpu. Could you put the fan below the rad? Or put the fan on the top of the rad and have it output through the rad and out the bottom? Versus having it intake and blowing directly on the bottom of the gpu? I was looking at this fan to use for this. So that puts us at 34mm+15mm for a total of 49mm. I will have to look back and see if that will fit. Regarding fittings I think the best solution will be these. I have no idea if I will need 90's or 45's until I get the case and mock everything up. Compression fittings may be to bulky all together so I may opt for using barbs (suggestions?). I just like the look of compression fittings so I have always used those. Let me know if you guys see anything wrong with this setup and as always I'm open to suggestions.
 
Phuncz said:
I wasn't driving at anything, but you make claims that defy physics and are the opposite of the experience I have and others have taught me.
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I said (paraphrasing) "GPUs cool well because the die is big" and you said "That is a strange statement ... bigger dies are actually easier to cool". This is what I don't understand what are you are driving at. Quote splitting and picking out each of my points is also quite hostile. I could pick apart your assertions as well, but don't think it will achieve anything.
 
WiSK said:
I said (paraphrasing) "GPUs cool well because the die is big" and you said "That is a strange statement ... bigger dies are actually easier to cool". This is what I don't understand what are you are driving at. Quote splitting and picking out each of my points is also quite hostile. I could pick apart your assertions as well, but don't think it will achieve anything.
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Agreed, Wisk you have been very helpful in this thread. Let's quit bickering and start posting your builds so we can all find the best water cooling solution :D
 
drklu said:
This is how I plan to run both CPU & GPU watercooling. Use this Swiftech kit then add a second 120mm rad to the loop. Regarding the clearance issues with the fan and gpu. Could you put the fan below the rad? Or put the fan on the top of the rad and have it output through the rad and out the bottom? Versus having it intake and blowing directly on the bottom of the gpu? I was looking at this fan to use for this. So that puts us at 34mm+15mm for a total of 49mm. I will have to look back and see if that will fit. Regarding fittings I think the best solution will be these. I have no idea if I will need 90's or 45's until I get the case and mock everything up. Compression fittings may be to bulky all together so I may opt for using barbs (suggestions?). I just like the look of compression fittings so I have always used those. Let me know if you guys see anything wrong with this setup and as always I'm open to suggestions.
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Well the advantage of the H220 over the H20-220 is that the pump is lower profile. Also because the inlet and outlet make everything taller. You will need 90 degree fittings coming out of the pump. I managed with Monsoon rotaries in my FT03-mini, but the M1 has less clearance. I think the shortest 90s are EK-CSQs, but it will still be overall taller than the H220 swivel fittings.

The Swiftech 120 rad you link is 34mm wide, maybe Alphacool ST30 is better?

Those XSPC fittings are short (15mm) so should be okay. Do they look good on an EK-CSG 90 degree fitting though?
 
That page doesn't do a particularly good job at explaining just how the "semi-fanless" functionality works. Specifically, the red line and the temperature scale in the fan speed graph don't make any sense to me at all.
 
vipz said:
That page doesn't do a particularly good job at explaining just how the "semi-fanless" functionality works. Specifically, the red line and the temperature scale in the fan speed graph don't make any sense to me at all.
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This snippet in the middle of the page explained the semi-fanless operation a little..

Ultra-quiet 80mm fan with intelligent RPM control guarantees cool performance and silent operation with minimum of 18dBA during fan operation. The fanless mode operation deactivates when PSU’s internal temperature reaches 55°C.
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It seems the PSU runs passive til 55C, then the fan kicks on with the pictured blue RPM curve afterward. Just looking at the pictures, the fan looks different than the previous SF power supplies.. maybe a quieter, higher quality fan? Box & build quality looks slightly nicer too.

If Silverstone doesn't get around to releasing a ≥500W SFX anytime soon, I'd really be interested in a very similar setup for an ST45SF-G revision (if better fan, build quality and/or semi-fanless).

ST30SF-2.jpg
 
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Just thought I'd list the current Mini-DTX motherboards I know of for people looking to make use of all three expansion slots in the M1. There's a new one I discovered from Biostar that I hadn't seen before:

Biostar H61MGV3 (socket 1155, H61 chipset)

ECS H61H2-MV (socket 1155, H61 chipset; same one I used in testing)

ECS H81H3-M4 (socket 1150, H81 chipset; doesn't seem to be available yet)

These are all budget boards with lower-end chipsets, and only the H81 chipset board has USB 3, but it's still quite possible to build a nice fast system with one. They're all listed as being microATX form factor as well, but don't let that fool you - their actual dimensions makes them effectively mini-DTX.
 
For the hardcore crowd, there's also the Shuttle FX79 (would require some decent modding and an alternate PSU location, thus the initial qualifier) :D
 
Machupo said:
For the hardcore crowd, there's also the Shuttle FX79 (would require some decent modding and an alternate PSU location, thus the initial qualifier) :D
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Much as I'd like to see someone get W/C SLI/CF with a Shuttle board inside the M1, I just can't see it happening. With an external rad and custom PSU mounting, sure, but I can't see doing it all internal.
 
Necere said:
Much as I'd like to see someone get W/C SLI/CF with a Shuttle board inside the M1, I just can't see it happening. With an external rad and custom PSU mounting, sure, but I can't see doing it all internal.
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I was doing a thought experiment the other day and I think you might be able to do it with a psu moved to the "standard itx location" (ala sg05/q02), because the FX79 has the cpu at the front; bottom 780/titan/whatev on stock air, top 780/titan/whatev on an H220 to the side dual 120 mount (obv. psu would have to be flipped for the psu fan to link up with the radiator fan flow at the rear of the case). CPU would have to be a custom job if you had a longish PSU (front mount AIO radiator w/ a modded internal mount, increased venting at bottom/top behind front fascia) or an air cooler linked to the front radiator fan if you had a stubby psu.

At any rate, I'd need to win the lottery first before I tried to do something as ridiculous as that! Definitely for the hardcore-mod / "makin' it rain" crowd. :p Oh, and it'd be loud as hell.
 
Anyone know approximately, what would be the most suitable SATA cable lengths for this setup..

2x HDD in side rack, connections facing downward, with length enough to leave the drives connected when the rack is unscrewed and laying beside the M1. ~10" seem enough?

2x SSD interior by PSU, again with connections facing downward. Maybe only 6"?

And, for both drive sets mounted this way, use one 90° (right-angle) cable, and one 180° (left-angle) cable, with straight ends?
 
WiSK said:
I said (paraphrasing) "GPUs cool well because the die is big" and you said "That is a strange statement ... bigger dies are actually easier to cool". This is what I don't understand what are you are driving at.
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Your comment was a reply on someone who wants to cool their GPU and CPU on the H220 and your comment gives the idea GPU's "cool better" because their die is bigger and their heat is spread out. But the heat is in relation to the die size about equal and the only reason a GPU has so much to gain from watercooling is because most GPU's that are watercooled tend to release multiples of the heat a high-end CPU does.

Let me be clear and totally emotionless here and say: I did not say anything bad about you, I just don't agree with your opinion and that is all my is about. This is a public forum read by many people and it needs multiple opinions and discussion to be of a certain quality. Otherwise this won't be a forum, just a public announcement board.

WiSK said:
Quote splitting and picking out each of my points is also quite hostile. I could pick apart your assertions as well, but don't think it will achieve anything.
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My comments weren't meant as hostile and I don't split quotes to pick apart anything, but to make my replies more readable and make sense of the various aspects I refer to.

Otherwise it would look like this:

WiSK said:
I said (paraphrasing) "GPUs cool well because the die is big" and you said "That is a strange statement ... bigger dies are actually easier to cool". This is what I don't understand what are you are driving at. Quote splitting and picking out each of my points is also quite hostile. I could pick apart your assertions as well, but don't think it will achieve anything.
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Your comment was a reply on someone who wants to cool their GPU and CPU on the H220 and your comment gives the idea GPU's "cool better" because their die is bigger and their heat is spread out. But the heat is in relation to the die size about equal and the only reason a GPU has so much to gain from watercooling is because most GPU's that are watercooled tend to release multiples of the heat a high-end CPU does.
Let me be clear and totally emotionless here and say: I did not say anything bad about you, I just don't agree with your opinion and that is all my is about. This is a public forum read by many people and it needs multiple opinions and discussion to be of a certain quality. Otherwise this won't be a forum, just a public announcement board.
My comments weren't meant as hostile and I don't split quotes to pick apart anything, but to make my replies more readable and make sense of the various aspects I refer to.

​
 
Stop fighting.....

I want to see pictures of the 3rd Prototype !!! :D

(I hope Lian Li got everything right ...)
 
milkcow said:
Stop fighting.....

I want to see pictures of the 3rd Prototype !!! :D

(I hope Lian Li got everything right ...)
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Same, I been checking the thread at least once a day to hopefully see some new pics, or news of the latest prototype.
 
Diverge said:
Same, I been checking the thread at least once a day to hopefully see some new pics, or news of the latest prototype.
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That would be nice, I wish we could see some testing with dual loop water cooling.
 
I would like to know if there's any flaws in the final case (I hope not) and if there's any temperature improvement with right panel now filled with holes.
 
FYI for those of us who messed up our orders and were expecting refunds, I received mine sometime yesterday into my Paypal account.

Thanks for your help guys! Congrats on the success too.

Now...lets get some more watercooling discussion going so i can decide what I want to get because it looks like a Swiftech Apogee Drive is about the only option block and pump wise
 
Hopefully I see my refund soon. I got my H220 yesterday from NCIX, the build quality of the unit is great and am excited to put it to use.
 
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