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NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)
- Thread starter wahaha360
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Alright your input and explanation is much appreciated. Will keep it anyway for a secundary system. Sigh, why is it impossible for a SFX PSU to be quiet! I understand that smaller places constraints but still. Guess the demand isn't high enough. Will mod the fan too then I guess. There goes my idea of silent idle build probably
HAve you guys been actually keeping track on this thread? Because if you did you would know the that Silverstone, the only company putting in effort and has been driving ITX for almost a decade now. Reworked the fan choice and configuration in V2, to one that was as quiet as the noise-blocker (almost silent) at idle without losing the air movement at load that you lose with the noise blocker.
And no Pointfiveo, you don't as Phuncz, stated know anything about PSU manufacturing. It would be damn near impossible to create a silent PSU for SFX and if they did it would probably top out at 200W and overheat like crazy with continual draw at that amount. The choice in fan that Silverstone chose originally for V1, they made that choice to protect the unit in high temperature environments, where even if the draw isn't very high, it could still end up being to much for the little PSU. Don't speak in "fact" with guesses and conjecture.
Substantial is probably a bit of a subjective statement. I don't think you will ever see an SFX get as quiet as the noiseblocker is, it is both set to run at low RPM at the low power mode and also uses fin's that reduce noise level but push less air. I don't think it would ever be in a PSU manufacturers best interest to get it that low, they have to worry about the environment the machine will be used in, even if you don't. But the V2 is spinning damn near as slow as the noise blocker at that level, so again I think we are talking a blade choice and substantial becomes subjective.
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Yeah, I wonder why they aren't used in more power supplies, oh I know, because they aren't cheap, and while they have dozen's of configurations, I doubt they can have a comparable CFM fan the has the pressure Silverstone desires at the loads they desire at the dba you desire, at the cost everyone else desires.
They don't sell one quieter because charging an extra $30-$40 for one to fit the SPCR crowd is going to turn the device away from the main target, performance computing ITX crowd. You know the one running devices that would spin up and be louder then the PSU by far anyways. Otherwise why would they be making a 450w SFX PSU.
This thread is a perfect example of comprises that it takes into design and we got to keep a lot other manufacturers would have had to drop because this is a small run case going to a select group of people that have a decent Idea of what they are doing before purchasing it. When you have to worry about selling to thousands, tens of thousands, millions, all while making a profit, you can't expect every variation of desire to be covered.
Phuncz
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I'll be in his ignore list I guess but atleast other people won't take his remarks as truth:
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=produkte&lng=en#fans
Noctua doesn't have any slim 80mm fans. Noctua is also not thé brand for the best fans, just for high build quality ones.
So you're saying that the V2 ST45SF-G is "as quiet as the noise-blocker at idle", and yet you don't think you will ever see an "SFX get as quiet as the noiseblocker is."
bbskd87's observations bear out what I already knew - the stock V2 fan will be too loud for me, even at idle. And no matter what speed it spins at there will likely be bearing and/or motor noise present.
I have read this entire thread, as well as the thread about the ST45SF-G and doing the noiseblocker mod, as well as countless other threads, articles, reviews and anything else over the years about quiet computing and modding components for silence, as excessive noise is a pet hate of mine. I returned a Sony TV last year because it emitted a very faint, high-pitched electrical whine. No-one else could even hear it. I live in a small town in one of the more rural parts of England and at night the sound floor in my house is very low. You can hear a pin drop. You could say that I'm a bit obsessive about noise.
I'm fully aware of the engineering challenges involved in balancing PSU fan noise with electrical functionality, especially in smaller form factor ones. I'm not knocking Silverstone - the ST45SF-G is perfect for me in most aspects of its functionality. It's just a little too loud for my tastes. But since I will only ever be using about 50-60% of it's rated capacity at the most, I feel quite comfortable with reducing it's airflow a bit to reduce noise. I understand that not everyone using it has this luxury. I also understand that when shoving a load of hot, power hungry components in to a box as small as the M1 sacrifices will have to be made. However, noise - or lack of it - is not something that I'm willing to sacrifice.
Phuncz
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So you would agree that your demands are not realistic in respect to the general populace, just you and a small set of people in the world that are obsessive about noise. Since most people in first-world countries still live variably-dense packed in cities where background noise is the norm.
So you can put it into perspective why people question this "loud" fan issue when many say it's quiet (enough).
I based that on the information that the V2's rotational speed is as low if not lower then the Noiseblocker at idle. The fact that someone still hears a difference and "it's substantial" tells me that they won't ever get what they want from Silverstone or anybody else for that matter. It just isn't feasible to ask Silverstone to take the PSU out of it cooling requirements, or increase the cost substantially for a botique fan, to put into what is already niche product for a niche of computer users. Add on top of that a system that requires that kind of power is almost the exact opposite of the quest for silence.So you're saying that the V2 ST45SF-G is "as quiet as the noise-blocker at idle", and yet you don't think you will ever see an "SFX get as quiet as the noiseblocker is."
bbskd87's observations bear out what I already knew - the stock V2 fan will be too loud for me, even at idle. And no matter what speed it spins at there will likely be bearing and/or motor noise present.
I have read this entire thread, as well as the thread about the ST45SF-G and doing the noiseblocker mod, as well as countless other threads, articles, reviews and anything else over the years about quiet computing and modding components for silence, as excessive noise is a pet hate of mine. I returned a Sony TV last year because it emitted a very faint, high-pitched electrical whine. No-one else could even hear it. I live in a small town in one of the more rural parts of England and at night the sound floor in my house is very low. You can hear a pin drop. You could say that I'm a bit obsessive about noise.
I'm fully aware of the engineering challenges involved in balancing PSU fan noise with electrical functionality, especially in smaller form factor ones. I'm not knocking Silverstone - the ST45SF-G is perfect for me in most aspects of its functionality. It's just a little too loud for my tastes. But since I will only ever be using about 50-60% of it's rated capacity at the most, I feel quite comfortable with reducing it's airflow a bit to reduce noise. I understand that not everyone using it has this luxury. I also understand that when shoving a load of hot, power hungry components in to a box as small as the M1 sacrifices will have to be made. However, noise - or lack of it - is not something that I'm willing to sacrifice.
I feel for people that sensitive to noise. But it's not about whether or not that they can make what you want and pointfiveo doesn't understand is that it may infact be implausible even if technically feasible (and for Warranty concerns it might not even be feasible), do just to the ability to move units.
This case is a perfect example of what should be material wise a 100-125 case. Costing nearly 100 more because the 600 cases have to share initial tooling costs and just the cost of doing such a small run. A lot of people are buying this case because it's both a good new design, limited amount, and designed/built by normal people. Silverstone not creating a PSU for a 200 unit run that will cost $140-$160 isn't showing a lack of support. As stated High power has a 500W PSU waiting for a 1000 unit order and no company is willing to do a run even that small.
Of course I would agree. I never said that my demands are anything other than niche, and I never asked, nor ever would ask, a company such as Silverstone to cater to my own personal needs. I can do any modding that I require myself. So yes, I can put it in to perspective, and indeed already do given that this isn't the first time I ve encountered these arguments.
By the way, I feel that both yours and Topweasel's posts are perhaps somewhat mis-directed at mine, or at my point of view, given that all I was doing was stating that the stock ST45SF-G is too loud for me and that I will have to mod it. I fully understand where you are coming from and agree entirely with you about the market forces and needs as regards these issues and, as I said before, the design challenges regarding these issues. Or, for most buyers, non-issues. We are (literally) on the same page here guys.
Hi there! I've been watching the indiegogo campaing and this thread for some time now. I'm quite happy with my SG05 currently, but would like it to be a bit more silent, and to have slightly more storage capacity. The M1 seems perfect for this, and it's supersexy looking too.
The Indiegogo specs don't really clarify what room is given up in terms of storage space if a full size ATX psu is used though. I guess you'd be limited to a 3.5" drive on the bottom and a 2.5" drive on the front?
What if you use one of those short length GPU's like the Asus mini cards? (like: http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/GTX760DCMOC2GD5/#specifications - 17.01 x 12.19 x4.06 Centimeter ). I guess it would allow one to use any size PSU (and a modular one to boot), but does it free up any room for storage? Old fashioned as I may be, I'd like at least 2x3.5" in my case.
Ready to hop on this at the last second ^_^
The Indiegogo specs don't really clarify what room is given up in terms of storage space if a full size ATX psu is used though. I guess you'd be limited to a 3.5" drive on the bottom and a 2.5" drive on the front?
What if you use one of those short length GPU's like the Asus mini cards? (like: http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/GTX760DCMOC2GD5/#specifications - 17.01 x 12.19 x4.06 Centimeter ). I guess it would allow one to use any size PSU (and a modular one to boot), but does it free up any room for storage? Old fashioned as I may be, I'd like at least 2x3.5" in my case.
Ready to hop on this at the last second ^_^
drklu
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I'm not entirely sure if this was answered or not, so excuse me if so. Regarding sleeving the V2 ST45SF-G, is the pin layout for the 24pin 1 to 1? Are there any other concerns I need to know about ? I plan on going with a gtx 780(blower style) and a Asus Impact mobo with a single SSD. I want all cables sleeved and the shortest possible length. I was going to buy all the tools and materials but wanted to make sure I wasn't biting off more than I should be given this is my first time custom sleeving.
With an ATX PSU you can fit:
- 1x 3.5" on the bottom (or 2x 2.5", using the stacking bracket)
- 1x 2.5" on the inside front
- 2x 2.5" on the outside front (using the stacking bracket), in place of the ODD
If CPU/system cooling is less of a priority, you could also use the dual 3.5" cage over the motherboard, like I showed here.
I probably still wouldn't try to go over 180mm long or so for the PSU, just because cables are such a pain with ATX.
Using a short card doesn't free up any room for more drives.
AFD
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I really don't see this case ever retailing for $100, even if Lian Li had complete control throughout the process (without sacrificing the design for ease of manufacture in some way). The M1 design just appears a lot more complex than than their sub-$100 cases, and probably even more so than Lian Li's $200 aluminum ITX cases.
And if the 500W High Power PSU is too large to fit some Silverstone cases, then Silverstone really has no incentive to do a run for customers they'd rather have purchasing their own cases. Their ST45 is the only >400W SFX PSU on the market, so they really have no competition, and not much incentive to press for something better (more power, premium fans, whatever). However, I am sure myself, and many others here would be willing to pay extra for something better.
Of course I would agree. I never said that my demands are anything other than niche, and I never asked, nor ever would ask, a company such as Silverstone to cater to my own personal needs. I can do any modding that I require myself. So yes, I can put it in to perspective, and indeed already do given that this isn't the first time I ve encountered these arguments.
By the way, I feel that both yours and Topweasel's posts are perhaps somewhat mis-directed at mine, or at my point of view, given that all I was doing was stating that the stock ST45SF-G is too loud for me and that I will have to mod it. I fully understand where you are coming from and agree entirely with you about the market forces and needs as regards these issues and, as I said before, the design challenges regarding these issues. Or, for most buyers, non-issues. We are (literally) on the same page here guys.
No not aimed at you,. Though yours got the other guys more inflammatory post started and just felt I could build on what I am saying while responding to you about the competing comments I made. I had already said that substantial ends up being a very vague and subjective term, specially when talking about the sound two similar sized fans spinning at the same speed make. So going 180 on my comments was a direct response to his requirements. Though i did read your responce as the 450w G was still an issue for you which probably added on to my post as you being one of the people that are so niche in a niche in a niche that I doubt a manufacturer could build something for you.
I was thinking more along the lines of the Q28p being a larger case with nearly the same materials being $100-$120. The features add on in terms of what they could sell it for but materials and tooling on like a 5k-10k run would put the guy cost wise about the same point. It's definitely not the simple aluminum SG05 that W360 wanted originally. But I don't think that its overly complex to have to compete with premium tower cases. But again its very niche, very clean and interesting, and very feature filled. For people looking a certain type of build knowing the other options available, this case could easily be worth $300 maybe a little more. I don't have a problem spending $200 on it and my wallet has already talked on that one, I just think that costs would be pushed down a ton on a larger run sold and distributed by a manufacturer like LL. Reverse end, knowing LL pricing on their own hardware, I am surprised how low they got an all aluminum case, at ~600 units, built by LL, to go. There are reasons boutique case builders end up charging an arm and a leg. Heck look at case labs, even a feature less shell is hundreds more then a fully featured case in any of the classes.
Edit: Oh yeah with the High Power. They are just an OEM like Enhance, so it's for companies like Silverstone (really the only company trying on the itx end) to purchase and brand. All Sliverstone has to do is release a a modified version of the two or three it won't fit into to make it work, or come out with a more job specific one. But "just" means like 2 years of design and testing, hoping it sells, and crying themselves to sleep when it doesn't, because for as fast as this guy got to 600, its taken weeks to close in on the 660. Demand even when at its best is still not enough and I fear for how long SS and the MB manufacturers can keep putting money into the FF to keep it viable. Specializing it more isn't what the FF needs. It needs a cost/usability/functionality/ more configurable advantage or at least on par with a small mATX FF, while actually being smaller. The last part is what products like the Caselabs and Prodigy hurt. They are pretty capable cases, but at their sizes mATX is as good or better solutions.
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Ah right. So if I understand the mounting system correctly, there's an another way of configuring it: I could build the system with an ATX power supply, and a 3.5" HDD mounted on the rear position of the side panel bracket, with no custom modifications to the case, as long as my CPU heatsink is low enough? (I'm using the Silverstone NT-06 Pro which is 82mm, which should allow enough room between the heatsink and the side panel for a 3.5" HDD). Together with the bottom mounted HDD would make the case perfect for me
Can the front and rear 3.5" "bracket arms" (don't know a better word
) be mounted seperately on the side bracket, or they come in 1 piece? I guess if they're stuck to eachother, I wouldn't be able to mount the bracket because of the ATX psu in front."As long as the heatsink is low enough" is key, and I don't think the NT-06 Pro is, unfortunately. The Big Shuriken I used is 57mm and it comes pretty close to the drive. You do gain a bit of room by only using one drive in the bracket, but not quite enough for an 82mm tall cooler. By my measurement, there's about 75mm available for a cooler with one drive in the cage over the motherboard.Ah right. So if I understand the mounting system correctly, there's an another way of configuring it: I could build the system with an ATX power supply, and a 3.5" HDD mounted on the rear position of the side panel bracket, with no custom modifications to the case, as long as my CPU heatsink is low enough? (I'm using the Silverstone NT-06 Pro which is 82mm, which should allow enough room between the heatsink and the side panel for a 3.5" HDD). Together with the bottom mounted HDD would make the case perfect for me
Not sure I understand the question, but maybe this pic answers it for you?Can the front and rear 3.5" "bracket arms" (don't know a better word
Thanks for the precise answers! The picture definitely helps. So if I see that bracket, the clearing between NT-06 Pro and the case side panel does allow for the height of 1 3.5" HDD, but not by using the current bracket, because the bracket itself is too big to fit between the cooler and the case side panel (I see that the bracket is higher than 1 3.5" HDD). So, I could do a dirty mod by sawing off the top of the bracket, which I guess would allow the 3.5" HDD could be mounted above the NT-06 Pro? (a 3.5" HDD 41.4mm + the NT-06 Pro 82mm = 123.4mm. The case is described as allowing heatsink clearance up to 130mm.)
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Yes, you could do that. 3.5" HDDs are ~26mm thick, BTW. There'd be about 90-92mm of clearance to the drive itself.
Four of Lian Li's standard plastic frame filters will be included. You can see these in some of the testing images. The Demciflex filters were going to be too expensive and problematic to order/ship separately and not everyone was interested in them.
The case is 100% aluminum (excepting the feet and latches for the panels). Note that Demci's standard filters for 120mm fans are too large for the M1, so you'll need to custom order a set. I can provide the drawing for the 120mm filter I designed so people can do that.
Mmm, no. ~145mm is the distance from the face of the motherboard to the side panel; the face of the CPU sits at about 7-8mm above the face of the motherboard, so there's a total of ~137mm of room before hitting the side panel. That's without the fan bracket, though, which takes up 5mm by itself. So you're looking at 132mm total between the CPU and fan bracket.
The top face of the SFX bracket is ~20mm from the top panel, but there's only about 19mm if you factor in the right-side chassis flange. But yeah, the baffle on the bracket is going to prevent any fan larger than 50-60mm sitting on top of the PSU exhaust.
Yes.
A 25mm thick fan will fit underneath any card that is exactly two slots thick or less. So you're fine.
Correct.
AFD
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Yup, me too.
Is your filter design able to fit between the interior side panel and fan rack (inside of case), and will it also fit properly on the bottom (outside of case)?
I don't mind doing the custom order though DemciFlex, but it would probably be much easier for them if they had just one person submit the design so they could add the M1 to their case list for others to order.
They fit on the fan bracket fine. There's 3mm between the bracket and side panel, which is enough for the Demciflex filters plus magnetic backing.
The same design also fits on the bottom, although it's less than perfect due to all the vents and mounting holes there. The design I came up with uses four separate strips for the magnetic backing, you can see in a couple areas where it would need to be trimmed:
Real estate is at a premium on the bottom, and it's a bit of a challenge to come up with a design that clears all the mounting holes. The current solution is less than ideal though, so I don't know... maybe I'll take another stab at it, see if I can some up with something better.
That is not true. They are not 'just' an OEM but also sell products under their own brand.
But yeah the Silverstone ST45SF (bronze) seems to be a relabled FSP Forton PSU
edit: Also afaik the High Power 500W SFX PSU wouldn't fit in to many Silverstone cases (e.g. in the SG05 you'd have to remove the ODD tray)
Sure, why not. Had to do a quick-and-dirty model of the Node 304 though, so some details are missing and it's not as realistic as it could be:
Wow really thank you, just what I needed! I like my node for quietness, nut the M1 looks so awesome. And it will be lighter than my node build with a noctua nh-d14 lol ;p
AFD
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Thanks for the info Necere!
Even if it's not 100% perfect, I'm sure it'll still be easier to work with than having to loosen up the fan screws for every cleaning. Would it be better or an easier design if the magnets & filters were mounted on the inside of the side panel, instead of the fan bracket? Not sure if being mounted backwards would effect the airflow through the filter, though. But it would be nice to be able to filter the perforations on both side panels.
Pulled the trigger and bought one! There were only 10 cases left so I hope I still got one. So happy excited and unpatient! Looking forward to january!
Also Phuncz, you are also from Belgium like I am? I read about shipping problems to our little country? Maybe we can work something out together.
Also necere and whaha, a cool idea. I saw this in the compact splash thread: make a world map and indicate how many cases shipped to each country, looks really cool and makes you feel unique
Also Phuncz, you are also from Belgium like I am? I read about shipping problems to our little country? Maybe we can work something out together.
Also necere and whaha, a cool idea. I saw this in the compact splash thread: make a world map and indicate how many cases shipped to each country, looks really cool and makes you feel unique
Some pedantry from me:
No, it's half the speed at idle. ST45SF-G V2 stock fan runs at 1300rpm at ~6V, NB-PCP runs at 600rpm at ~6V. The latter is really really hard to hear at idle.
Unfortunately there is no correct length for ITX, because each case has a different place where the PSU mounts, and each motherboard has the ATX24 socket differently. If you want exactly the minimum cable length then in fact each wire needs to be cut to size separately.
Silverstone designed it and Forton built it. The Silverstone was released first. You can tell because it has a lower 80Plus certificate #2052 - 10th May 2010. Silverstone agreed that FSP could sell the same design as well as you see certificate #2148 - 19th July 2010.
But the FSP450-60GHS(85) is not available globally and it also has a technical difference: two 'rails' on the 12V with breakers above 18A instead of the ST45SF's single 12V 36A 'rail'.
No, it's half the speed at idle. ST45SF-G V2 stock fan runs at 1300rpm at ~6V, NB-PCP runs at 600rpm at ~6V. The latter is really really hard to hear at idle.
Unfortunately there is no correct length for ITX, because each case has a different place where the PSU mounts, and each motherboard has the ATX24 socket differently. If you want exactly the minimum cable length then in fact each wire needs to be cut to size separately.
Silverstone designed it and Forton built it. The Silverstone was released first. You can tell because it has a lower 80Plus certificate #2052 - 10th May 2010. Silverstone agreed that FSP could sell the same design as well as you see certificate #2148 - 19th July 2010.
But the FSP450-60GHS(85) is not available globally and it also has a technical difference: two 'rails' on the 12V with breakers above 18A instead of the ST45SF's single 12V 36A 'rail'.
Then so be it but I could have sworn that earlier in the thread someone had a RPM chart for the V2 and NBLR and they were the same at idle and that the V2 still ramped up hire at load.
So if you are an idle silence lover fan on the silverstone will have to be replaced?
Also I want a super clean build, how hard is it to cut cables to the right size and sleeve hem for someone who has zero experience with this? Are many tools needed?
Also, ordered the case 2 hours ago through ncases.com paid with paypal. I got a confirmation of paypal that the payment got through but do I get a confirmation mail from ncases too?
Phuncz
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Then this must be one hell of a find for you, since it's about the last ones (I think) available. Some of us have been waiting around a year for this caseBought one. Found it today and was struggling for weeks which case to use for my upcoming mini itx build. I think its exactly the one i wanted (tiny, nice design, functional, aluminium).
Hopefully i've got one on these last samples
Try the PSU first and then decide if you want to do the mod. It might be more acceptable in the M1 than other cases people have tried. You never know
Sleeving: http://en.mdpc-x.com/ you need crimper and Molex de-pinning tool. It's quite an investment, but you can use it for years on many PSUs. It's not hard to do as long as you take your time, read the guides and watch the videos.
AFD
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I think he was maybe referring to Silverstone offering their individually sleeved PSU kits, like their PP06 series, but in a size matching the cables already included with the ST45 PSU (shorter than PP05). I'm sure the quality would be nowhere near that of a custom sleeve job, but for many of us, it might be good enough.
AFD
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Only 5 left at IGG folks!
drklu
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Exactly, I'm just going to get the supplies to sleeve it myself. Have you guys sleeved the 450w Gold SS V2 before? I know there was some talk a few pages regarding pin layout and how the 24 pin has some wires crossed. Is this the case with the gold version?
Both my rigs have a ST45SF-G sleeved.
It's difficult to describe without pictures, but think of a door handle. Normal door handles are a mirror of each other. If they were both exactly the same, then one of them would pointing the wrong way. Or you can turn it upside down, but then you have to open the door by pushing upwards. PSUs in the Silverstone Strider connectors are similar. The connectors on PSU side and MB side have exactly the same pinout. But because the sockets point towards one another, the wires all have to cross from one side to the other column-wise, while keeping the same row (mirrored). Or you turn the PSU upside-down and cross wires from one row to the other while keeping the same columns (interlaced).
Happily, in the NCase M1 the PSU points down and the motherboard towards you. So you'll have a natural curve so you can go with interlaced which looks a bit nicer.