My review-Good Headphones for gaming and music

I

Island

Gawd
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
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Greetings fellas....I actually just wanted to comment on what I have discovered and perhaps help others, and or get some feedback from any of you [H] audiophiles....

I've been using my Soundblaster X-fi for years and I still think it works great with (Danielk drivers), and have not felt the need to upgrade. I also have been using my Razer Tiamats which I know get a bad rap for being Razer not to mention being a headset in general, but I will happily say and defend it that it is an awesome set of cans that works great with games...Music though, it is a bit lacking...

Hence, why I started researching and I have been bitten by the dreaded audiophile bug, and I only see my addiction getting worse $$.......:rolleyes:

So, I decided to pick up a set of beyerdynamic Dt 990's which are the limited ED. I never have used open cans before or even tried them, but the thought of a larger soundstage really got me excited. I also purchased a Mayflower Version B Odac/amp which should be here in the next few days. I was going to get a Shiit stack, with a modi upgrade, but decided to opt for the Mayflower.

I tried my 990's for the first time last night and I plugged them into my Denon AVR. there is no documentation on the headphone jack impedance and calling Denon tech support is pretty much like it is calling any other electronic product tech support.....most of the time, [H] people like us, know more about wtf wer'e asking about then the "expert" on the other end of the phone.:rolleyes: needless to say, the guy politely says, "I'm sorry sir, I don't know or have that information."....But I digress...

Anyway, my AVR does seem to power the 250 ohm can's without an issue. I almost was tempted to cancel my Mayflower order, but I like tech, and it's one more item to add to my desk of treasure troves..... First impression is that I really like the larger sound stage. Music really sounds awesome and so much better then coming from the tiny drivers on my Tiamat. I will say though that even though it sounds better, it didn't BLOW me away. I hope the Odac, will change that and add to the sound quality on the 990's.

Gaming though is a different story. For some reason, stereo headphones just don't give me the "fun factor" in my gaming sessions. My Tiamat sounds awesome at 7.1 with all the games that I play. I do think the 990's sound crisp and the base is nice, but I think the sound positioning and overall gaming sound presence is better using my Tiamats. Like I said, once I hook up the Odac, maybe that will change. Atleast, I now have some nice cans to enjoy some good music with. I even went to youtube and listened to some Guitar players on Candyrat's channel....Sounds frekkin' amazing on my 990's even with Youtube's crap audio quality. I found myself closing my eyes and really enjoying the music as I could hear notes being played that I never heard before...Anyway...I'll post back once I get the Odac....
 
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Island said:
I tried my 990's for the first time last night and I plugged them into my Denon AVR. there is no documentation on the headphone jack impedance and calling Denon tech support is pretty much like it is calling any other electronic product tech support.....most of the time, [H] people like us, know more about wtf wer'e asking about then the "expert" on the other end of the phone.:rolleyes: needless to say, the guy politely says, "I'm sorry sir, I don't know or have that information."....But I digress...
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I sent Denon an email about a year ago(probably using their tech contact form) and was told my AVR-1612 was 32 ohms output impedance. Sometimes I think you get a more well-researched answer using email for this sort of thing, but maybe I just got lucky. 32 ohm is fairly high, though. Anyways, enjoy and let us know if the Mayflower 'gets you to a new world' ;)
 
John721 said:
I sent Denon an email about a year ago(probably using their tech contact form) and was told my AVR-1612 was 32 ohms output impedance. Sometimes I think you get a more well-researched answer using email for this sort of thing, but maybe I just got lucky. 32 ohm is fairly high, though. Anyways, enjoy and let us know if the Mayflower 'gets you to a new world' ;)
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Thanks for the reply. 32 ohms, but Iwonder how many Mwatts it being output at 32 ohms...If it's not that much, I would assume it would be worse at 250-600ohms.....

I have a Denon AVR-591 which is a nice, albeit a cheaper model that I bought at Fry's because it came with a nice set of Boston 5.1 surround speakers. The AVR also has Audessy built in.....Like I said, the AVR seemed to power the 990's quite well....I just hope the Odac's sound output will justify the $$ I spent, as I did opt for the larger headphone plug and upgraded volume knob, so it was pretty much $300....ehh..Oh well, I also picked up a nice woo black/chrome headphone stand to go with the rest of my gear...I guess sometimes you gotta splurge and say fuk it..... Now, time to look at some X2's, Hi-fi man's or some other ridiculously expensive cans
 
Island said:
...Iwonder how many Mwatts it being output at 32 ohms...If it's not that much, I would assume it would be worse at 250-600ohms.....
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Just to be clear, 32-ohm output impedance doesn't say anything about power output into 32-ohm cans. It does imply a poor damping factor into low-impedance loads.

Regardless, a transistor amp WILL push less power into a ~10x higher impedance, unless you're starting from extreme current limiting. Consider the O2, because we have numbers for it. According to this page (find "THD+N vs OUTPUT & MAX POWER ON AC"), it can provide a bit over 7V into loads above 80 ohms. Lower loads gradually push it into a current limit, so its maximum voltage drops.

Comparing the 80-, 150- & 600-ohm results, you see almost the same voltage. Therefore, the current & power fall evenly as the load increases. For example, at 600 ohms, current & power should drop to 1/4 of the 150-ohm values. 88mw/355mw = 24.8%, so close enough for this forum post.

With low impedances, the higher current increases power output even as voltage falls off. Power's almost the same into 15 & 150 ohms, despite a 3x voltage difference.

You can calculate maximum output levels for an amp/headphone system by voltage OR power, so work with whatever specs you have. Innerfidelity's measurements include both, but the 990's not listed. Either way, a basic understanding of Ohm's law & decibel calculations will carry you a long way.
 
HammerSandwich said:
Just to be clear, 32-ohm output impedance doesn't say anything about power output into 32-ohm cans. It does imply a poor damping factor into low-impedance loads.

Regardless, a transistor amp WILL push less power into a ~10x higher impedance, unless you're starting from extreme current limiting. Consider the O2, because we have numbers for it. According to this page (find "THD+N vs OUTPUT & MAX POWER ON AC"), it can provide a bit over 7V into loads above 80 ohms. Lower loads gradually push it into a current limit, so its maximum voltage drops.

Comparing the 80-, 150- & 600-ohm results, you see almost the same voltage. Therefore, the current & power fall evenly as the load increases. For example, at 600 ohms, current & power should drop to 1/4 of the 150-ohm values. 88mw/355mw = 24.8%, so close enough for this forum post.

With low impedances, the higher current increases power output even as voltage falls off. Power's almost the same into 15 & 150 ohms, despite a 3x voltage difference.

You can calculate maximum output levels for an amp/headphone system by voltage OR power, so work with whatever specs you have. Innerfidelity's measurements include both, but the 990's not listed. Either way, a basic understanding of Ohm's law & decibel calculations will carry you a long way.
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Thanks for the informative reply. So, to cut to the chase, in your opinion, do you think the Odac would be a significant upgrade over the AVR's headphone jack?
 
It's a coin flip. Frankly, I don't know squat about your Denon and don't want to assume it matches what John was told about his 1612.

Note that I lean to the objectivist side of audio. While I do believe different amps - and cables - can change a system's sound, I strongly believe that the differences are small, fairly well understood by audio engineers & over-hyped by the subjectivist school.

That said, the primary reason to amp higher-impedance cans is to make them play louder. My 250-ohm DT-880s sound okay from a Sansa Clip+, but peak volume is low. So you probably don't need an O2 if your system already goes as loud as you like.

Cans with wild impedance swings can benefit from amps as well, because they interact with the amp's output impedance to modify the system's frequency response. Because this is a bigger problem with low-impedance headphones & speakers, I suspect it won't be a big deal with your Beyers. But once again, I am assuming without measurements...

OTOH, an O2/ODAC provides known good performance as a baseline. Objectivists clearly love the combo, & the subjective reviews I've seen generally conclude that it's solid starter gear at a reasonable price. And it should drive most any headphone you're likely to try in the 1st few years in the hobby.

IMO, if you can afford the gear & either get a reasonable return policy or can sell it at a small loss, you might as well try it.
 
Thanks....Odac should arrive tomorrow so I will test my 990's via both the odac and avr and post back my findings
 
Well, I received the Mayflower Odac yesterday and got it plugged in. Windows 10 had no issues installing the driver. I disabled all enhancements and plugged in my Beyer dynamic Dt-990's First impression is that the sound is very clean. No hiss or noise at all. Music sounds very clear. My issue is that for $300, I really was not blown away, and my AVR was just as good if not better in the Amp department. I am disappointed in the Amp of the O2.

I literally have to keep the volume knob at 3 oclock or past to feel that the drivers are even getting pushed. If I turn on the gain, it does help, but when I play any games I have to keep the volume cranked at 100% to feel like my DT-990's are working. I do have windows volume set at 100% because I had it at 75% and the volume was too low even when I cranked to Odac to max. I am communicating with Tyler from Mayflower and I am asking if there could be an issue with the Odac I purchased. I doubt it as everything seems to be working and I am not having any audio issues. I would have just kept using my AVr and spent the 300$ on something else. Perhaps, I was expecting too much because I really thought an Odac/amp would take the headphones to a whole new level.
 
Island said:
Well, I received the Mayflower Odac yesterday and got it plugged in. Windows 10 had no issues installing the driver. I disabled all enhancements and plugged in my Beyer dynamic Dt-990's First impression is that the sound is very clean. No hiss or noise at all. Music sounds very clear. My issue is that for $300, I really was not blown away, and my AVR was just as good if not better in the Amp department. I am disappointed in the Amp of the O2.

I literally have to keep the volume knob at 3 oclock or past to feel that the drivers are even getting pushed. If I turn on the gain, it does help, but when I play any games I have to keep the volume cranked at 100% to feel like my DT-990's are working. I do have windows volume set at 100% because I had it at 75% and the volume was too low even when I cranked to Odac to max. I am communicating with Tyler from Mayflower and I am asking if there could be an issue with the Odac I purchased. I doubt it as everything seems to be working and I am not having any audio issues. I would have just kept using my AVr and spent the 300$ on something else. Perhaps, I was expecting too much because I really thought an Odac/amp would take the headphones to a whole new level.
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Holy crap, 3? You mean like 75% volume?! That's ridiculous. For me, "very loud" is 10-11 without the gain on at all (fyi I usually keep the thing at 9). And my headphones are the Beyerdynamic T1's, which are 600 Ohm. Just how much hearing loss do you have? I mean granted I generally listen to things quietly, but still. For what it's worth, mine is also a Mayflower. I got it from a Massdrop a year or two ago.

I'm not sure if something is wrong with the amp or not, but generally speaking the O2 package wasn't meant to necessarily "impress". The creator made it so that it would literally "get out of the way". IIRC that's literally how he described on his own blog. It measures extremely well in every computer-conducted test. In other words, it was made for measurements and accuracy first, for minimizing noise and such. Unlike other things, it doesn't add any noticeable distortion and whatnot. So "clean" is the goal. If you're ever noticing anything, it's doing its job wrong. You're buying the objectivist (fyi objectivist isn't necessarily a word in the way we're using it, but who cares...) dream.

Maybe your existing AVR had a good enough design that you can't notice the difference (if it exists). It's fully possible that it just had a good enough combo on board that you don't notice whatever difference might or might not exist. DACs and AMPs are have very quickly diminishing returns for most users. I bought the O2 because as an objectivist I decided that it was the last DAC/AMP I would ever need.

That being said, I'd fiddle with your Windows settings and such. Getting to 3 o'clock and then having to turn the GAIN on is kind of ridiculous. You either have a lot of hearing loss, or something's up.
 
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StoleMyOwnCar said:
Holy crap, 3? You mean like 75% volume?! That's ridiculous. For me, "very loud" is 10-11 without the gain on at all (fyi I usually keep the thing at 9). And my headphones are the Beyerdynamic T1's, which are 600 Ohm. Just how much hearing loss do you have? I mean granted I generally listen to things quietly, but still. For what it's worth, mine is also a Mayflower. I got it from a Massdrop a year or two ago.

I'm not sure if something is wrong with the amp or not, but generally speaking the O2 package wasn't meant to necessarily "impress". The creator made it so that it would literally "get out of the way". IIRC that's literally how he described on his own blog. It measures extremely well in every computer-conducted test. In other words, it was made for measurements and accuracy first, for minimizing noise and such. Unlike other things, it doesn't add any noticeable distortion and whatnot. So "clean" is the goal. If you're ever noticing anything, it's doing its job wrong. You're buying the objectivist (fyi objectivist isn't necessarily a word in the way we're using it, but who cares...) dream.

Maybe your existing AVR had a good enough design that you can't notice the difference (if it exists). It's fully possible that it just had a good enough combo on board that you don't notice whatever difference might or might not exist. DACs and AMPs are have very quickly diminishing returns for most users. I bought the O2 because as an objectivist I decided that it was the last DAC/AMP I would ever need.

That being said, I'd fiddle with your Windows settings and such. Getting to 3 o'clock and then having to turn the GAIN on is kind of ridiculous. You either have a lot of hearing loss, or something's up.
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Thanks for the reply man....Hah..no my hearing isn't shot. I'm in my 30's and I don't have any ringing. Well, I actually have been speaking to Tyler the owner of Mayflower. He is also confused and states that the Odac should power any headphone and full volume should be deafening. He says there could be a problem with the power adapter wall wart, so I told him I'd test it with my multi meter and make sure it's outputting the correct voltage amps. Yeah, I literally have to have the knob at 3 o'clock to fellike like the headphones are being pushed. Granted I have the 250 ohm 990's but YOU have the 600 ohm t-1's and you really get that much out of the dac/amp? Tyler said I could RMA it and he would test it but the unit does seem to work...just not very loud...Please post back some of your testing results if you don't mind
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
Holy crap, 3? You mean like 75% volume?! That's ridiculous. For me, "very loud" is 10-11 without the gain on at all (fyi I usually keep the thing at 9). .
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Are u serious? 10-11 and it's already very loud? I have mine at 12 and I can hear the music but it is just there...No where does it remotely feel too loud where I feel like it's blastimg
 
Mostly an issue when gaming? In Sound properties, go to Communications to verify it's not chopping volume by 50-80%.

If that's not it, is music loud enough at low gain? What playback software are you using? All sliders in the volume mixer are at 100%?

Changing Windows volume from 75% to 100% is only 2.5dB, so audible but not large. Certainly, it's nothing like the high-gain setting's extra 8dB.

Seems to me that even low gain should be adequate. The ODAC's rated for 2Vrms at full scale. This should give peaks over 100dB with NO gain. (Yeah, I'm extrapolating from Tyll's 880 & T1 measurements, but we should be in the ballpark.) Add 8dB at the O2's low gain, and you're at 110-115. Definitely "loud."

One final aside: volume pots tend to have balance issues in the lower half of the dial. You're generally better off with, say, 3 o'clock at low gain than 10 at high.
 
HammerSandwich said:
Mostly an issue when gaming? In Sound properties, go to Communications to verify it's not chopping volume by 50-80%.

If that's not it, is music loud enough at low gain? What playback software are you using? All sliders in the volume mixer are at 100%?

Changing Windows volume from 75% to 100% is only 2.5dB, so audible but not large. Certainly, it's nothing like the high-gain setting's extra 8dB.

Seems to me that even low gain should be adequate. The ODAC's rated for 2Vrms at full scale. This should give peaks over 100dB with NO gain. (Yeah, I'm extrapolating from Tyll's 880 & T1 measurements, but we should be in the ballpark.) Add 8dB at the O2's low gain, and you're at 110-115. Definitely "loud."

One final aside: volume pots tend to have balance issues in the lower half of the dial. You're generally better off with, say, 3 o'clock at low gain than 10 at high.
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Thanks for the reply Hammer...Yeah, in sound properties, communication is set to "Do nothing" I have all the enhancements turned off. I checked the power adapter with my multi meter and it is indeed outputting at 12.6 volts and the adapter is rated for 12 so that is not the issue. I'm glad you brought up the fact about the pots and I tend to agree with you. I actually have been playing around with the sound and it definitely is softer below the 12 o'clock setting and gets louder at around 2.

I also installed razer's surround software and that actually helped out a lot with the over all sound for games. I actually also turned on all the enhancements as well within windows and the overall volume also sounded louder and fuller....So, I don't really know...Perhaps the odac at neutral/flat EQ is not up to what I expected, if that makes any sense.

Either way, I have been speaking with Tyler the owner from Mayflower and he wants me to send the Odac back and he will test it for any issues and then let me know. I have to eat the cost sending it back but it's only 6$ for piece of mind I guess, but I really don't think the odac has any issues. I will post back once I get more info....Thanks again fellas for the replies and feedback
 
I don't have such great headphones, just a mortal Audio-Technica ATH-M50's (just 38 ohms), and have the Mayflower O2 set at like... I dunno... 9ish? If I even go halfway through, it gets unbearably loud.

Normally I have Windows at 50%, because I like to control de volume through the O2.

I should get nicer headphones! :D
 
KillerFry said:
I don't have such great headphones, just a mortal Audio-Technica ATH-M50's (just 38 ohms), and have the Mayflower O2 set at like... I dunno... 9ish? If I even go halfway through, it gets unbearably loud.

Normally I have Windows at 50%, because I like to control de volume through the O2.

I should get nicer headphones! :D
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Thanks for the reply...Yeah, my 990's are 250 ohms, but this odac should push 600 ohm cans without a problem from what I have been told. I definitely have to turn the knob pas t12 o'clock to feel like I'm getting good volume. I don't know if it's me or the amp in my odac is not functioning correctly
 
With the objective 2 amp and Odac you have to set the windows 10 volume to 80% and then just adjust the volume on the amp it's self. thats the correct way of using any usb amp/dac with a computer. Also a good amp or dac is suppose to be clean unflitered sound and no coloration. that's a good thing!
 
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