My letter to the AG's office over the recient microsoft bans

[docmal]

Whether I disagree or not I find it amusing that people still say "Read the EULA!"

EULA's are just like any other contract and are subject to litigation.

You shouldn't view them as a legal force field. You should view them as a legal front door with a lock on it.

Sure the door is locked, but that doesn't mean their is no physical way in.

 

[jgoewert]

Loki, I completely agree with you on this one.

Disabling live = Perfect response to the hacking action
Disabling functionality and data = Wrong
Zero tolerance for appeals = Intolerable

A problem that seems to be forming around this would also be the secondary market for system sales. One of my consoles was banned in this wave. Did I modify it? Nope. It is exactly in the same condition as when I bought it refurbished from a large chain retailer. I stopped pirating 12 years ago when I started to understand media rights and had a job that I could afford media purchases.

Now, I am caught in a catch-22. Microsoft won't allow me any sort of appeal, as they believe myself to have violated a TOS that I have followed and have kept myself a party to. Fine, as others have said, the retailer I purchased it from should be the responsible party. GameStop won't refund or exchange the system because they too believe I have modified the console after I bought it from them. Obviously, they didn't check the system properly to ensure what they were selling me was not going to be crippled at some later date.

 

[keenan]

Citation: Google Apple and "disabling".

This seems a rather different situation. It's an optional user-installable software update. Both Apple and the hacking community seemed to agree that it wasn't an intentional offensive move against hackers. It also seems that a simple restore-mode recovery of the iPhone would bring it back to normal operational status. Apple has a fairly strong argument that it was unintentional, it can be fixed fairly easily with Apple-provided tools. Microsoft's actions here were clearly punitive and targeted at a particular set of users (among whom are likely many legitimate users, not to mention the way this impacts the second hand market which MS would love to disappear, but which they can't legally control directly). At least it's a much more uphill battle against Apple saying it was accidental (and the hacker community generally in agreement) than MS clearly and openly breaking these users' consoles.

Late edit: Found some more detail on what the Apple update actually did, and it looks like all it did was re-lock unlocked phones to the ATT network. Intentionally or otherwise, they didn't affect the original functionality of the device in any way.

And just as a personal matter, I am quite opposed to Apple and take strong issue with a lot of the ways they do business, but I don't think they've ever done something quite as unreasonable as this to their end users. Yes they attack developers/hackers that do things they don't like, yes they rotate their closed protocols to try and prevent interoperability, and yes they try and lock their platforms down as much as possible - but I've never heard of anything like this from them.

...and what Microsoft has done here is no-where near as severe. Hell, not even close. Like it or not, MS provide regular software enhancements (which they own) to the system and could just as easily disable any of those enhancements at any time they choose, and for whatever reason they choose. This goes for Live access, or the ability of the system to install games to the HDD. You want to a buy a box with just the software that came with the system day one, be my guest... just don't expect it to stay that way if you connect it to Microsoft's services and accept any of their updates... especially if you've modded the machine and affected the system's integrity.

We disagree on this matter. The features they've disabled are features that are advertised on the box of the console, and as has been mentioned previously in this thread, the update isn't optional and installs without your consent. If the fact that the software broke were a direct result of the modifications made to the console that's one thing, but that is clearly not the case here (optical drive firmware obviously has absolutely nothing to do with media centre functionality). This is Microsoft outright disabling capabilities the console had when you bought it, unrelated to the online services, without your consent. I'm shocked that people would support this for any reason, and I think that there's a pretty strong legal argument against them being allowed to take such punitive actions, but as far as I know this has yet to be tested in court. Either way, this leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, and were I in the market for a console this would probably remove the 360 from consideration.

 

[Psychotext]

Zero tolerance for appeals = Intolerable

That's not entirely true though is it. You can appeal, but as you've got a machine that's been opened you wouldn't be likely to get anywhere would you.

But then your issue really lies with Gamestop. They sold you something that wasn't what it appeared to be.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

anyone got documented cases where MS has banned an unmodded console? that did not repeatidly violate the terms of use?

MS is quite clear on what they will ban you for.

 

[keenan]

anyone got documented cases where MS has banned an unmodded console? that did not repeatidly violate the terms of use?

MS is quite clear on what they will ban you for.

How many times does it need to be said? The XBL banning is fine and I don't see anyone taking issue with that.

 

[Capfarland]

Thank you for further proving my point. The issue is, and i stated in my email, that Live is a service and i understand they are within their right not to service someone who violates their ToS. However my issue is that i dont belive they have the right to cripple offline functionality of the xbox.

And yes, this latest wave of bans disables the use of media center extender, as well as the ability to load games from the harddrive. This is the area i felt they crossed the line.

You wasted your time with that email, at least you amused the rest of us. Heres a tissue, buy a new XBOX and go legit.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

reading the ms faq on the xbox home page results in this:

Why does my banned Xbox 360 no longer install to hard drive?

Once a console has been banned from Xbox LIVE, in order to protect the integrity of the Xbox ecosystem and its members, that console loses its ability to create trusted content. This means that, for example, the console can no longer create profile and game data that is recognized by other Xbox 360 consoles or on the Xbox Live service, and it cannot create trusted game files or recognize previously created game files using the install to hard drive functionality. The inability to create trusted content does not impact the console’s ability to play from discs in the optical disc drive.

so there is the explanation as to why media center no longer works on the console

 

[arentol]

Nope, even non Xbox Live users are forced to get it. Even If you have the ethernet cable plugged in such as if you were using it as a media center extender. If you turn on your Xbox 360 even without a hard drive it will install the update with no button to cancel before the dashboard even loads without you choosing to connect to Xbox live and without a Silver or Gold membership. You do not agree to a EULA when purchasing the product, you agree to the EULA when you sign up for Xbox Live. Even a non-registered user (No Xbox Live) who connects their Xbox 360 to an ethernet port will have the update downloaded.

Do you have any proof of this claim?

Also, you don't need to be on a live internet connection to use the media extender to connect to your home PC.

Oh, and the EULA is a set of rules. Not a law. Therefore it is not illegal to break the EULA unless there is a law against the exact rule you are breaking set in your area.

I know far better than you what an EULA is, and it is not a set of rules, and it is not a law. It is a contract. Breaking a valid EULA is no different than failing to perform on any other contract. It is not illegal in the way that breaking a criminal law is, but it can put you at the mercy of a civil suit, so it isn't exactly the most legal thing in the world.

The real issue with most EULAs is that they are entirely unenforceable because they are not on the outside of the box. If MS sells me a copy of HALO 3 and includes the EULA in the box, or in a game menu, then they are modifying the contract for sale after the sale has been completed. This is not legal unless they also accept open box returns, and make the return of their opened products a reasonable process. Reasonableness varies depending on the court, but here are some broad guidlines:

Able to return at the retailer from which I purchased it.
Able to call a number for MS printed on the box and have the return and refund arranged within a reasonable time.
Able to go on the internet to the MS site and arrange the return and refund in a reasonable time.

Otherwise the EULA is probably going to be ruled entirely unenforceable. Terms of Service are different, they are always enforceable unless unconscionable. Also if you install an update for a game and you agree to the EULA at that time, then you may be stuck as well.... Jury is still way out on this point.

 

[Damar]

People.... Please read.

Microsoft is going to the point where they are blocking 3rd party hardware and disabling offline functionality.

This is not about blocking live...

Don't even own a 360 but since I'm sitting here bored atm.......and half toasted......

There is no law that says MS has to allow for 3rd party devices to work on their console. It's also not up to them to support devices they didn't make or endorse. Nowhere on the packaging does it say the product is licensed from or endored by MS.

Blame Datel and others for making a "compatible" device that they didn't get a license from MS for, and now they are finally getting locked out. Datel and others were cashing in without paying MS a cent, so I don't see the problem with MS locking them out, and I don't think a judge would either.

Things like this are why I never bought a 360, and never will. Not enough control on my end to suit me. Even the PS3 isn't perfect in that area, but it's a lot better than a 360 right now until SONY starts the same sort of thing, which I expect they will.

 

[arentol]

The action of blocking a 3rd party memory card that you purchased in good faith and then saying you cant access the content off of that card until you buy our memory card IMHO is a pretty clear cut case of "Unjust Enrichment"

1. Was the defendant enriched?

Arguably yes.

2. Was the enrichment at the expense of the claimant?

What little there was of it... Yes.

3. Was the enrichment unjust?

No, claimant was using an unlicensed product in violation of the Xbox EULA and the Xbox Live TOS. (I don't have either of those in front of me, but I am pretty certain MS wouldn't have left that kind of thing out of either.)

4. Does the defendant have a defense?

Not needed, failed at point 3.

5. What remedies are available to the claimant?

None, because of failure on point 3.


Again, the responsible party is Datel, not MS. They knew a license was required, and they didn't get one. Maybe MS refused to sell them licenses, but it is still their fault.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Don't even own a 360 but since I'm sitting here bored atm.......and half toasted......

There is no law that says MS has to allow for 3rd party devices to work on their console. It's also not up to them to support devices they didn't make or endorse. Nowhere on the packaging does it say the product is licensed from or endored by MS.

Blame Datel and others for making a "compatible" device that they didn't get a license from MS for, and now they are finally getting locked out. Datel and others were cashing in without paying MS a cent, so I don't see the problem with MS locking them out, and I don't think a judge would either.

Things like this are why I never bought a 360, and never will. Not enough control on my end to suit me. Even the PS3 isn't perfect in that area, but it's a lot better than a 360 right now until SONY starts the same sort of thing, which I expect they will.

And no law that states Apple has to let others use their iTunes software, nor do they have to open up their iPhone/iPod touch to 3rd party gizmos.

Last I remember, you had to get approval from Apple to develop a gizmo for the iPod.

 

[Chombo]

People.... Please read.

Microsoft is going to the point where they are blocking 3rd party hardware and disabling offline functionality.

This is not about blocking live...

Its a console, not a computer.

 

[phide]

Last I remember, you had to get approval from Apple to develop a gizmo for the iPod.

Only if you want the "Made for iPod" logo on your product's packaging. Getting permission to use that only entails licensing Apple's dock connector technology, but it isn't a difficult connector to duplicate.

 

[Loki008]

3. Was the enrichment unjust?

No, claimant was using an unlicensed product in violation of the Xbox EULA and the Xbox Live TOS. (I don't have either of those in front of me, but I am pretty certain MS wouldn't have left that kind of thing out of either.)

Again, the responsible party is Datel, not MS. They knew a license was required, and they didn't get one. Maybe MS refused to sell them licenses, but it is still their fault.

Number 3 is more a jury question than one of fact. Is the xbox a hardware device and the OS firmware which is inextricably linked to the console? If so can a EULA be attached to hardware? If so is the eula even binding due to being a contract of attachement and arguably unconscionable due to its terms?

Live ToS has no bareing to the functionality of the xbox but rather apply to the online services and thusly are moot to any offline functionality.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Only if you want the "Made for iPod" logo on your product's packaging. Getting permission to use that only entails licensing Apple's dock connector technology, but it isn't a difficult connector to duplicate.

I think my info is now out of date.

I remember news about Griffen not getting access to the iPod API to develop a 'remote control' (like a IR remote) addon for the iPod.

 

[jojo69]

The real issue with most EULAs is that they are entirely unenforceable because they are not on the outside of the box. If MS sells me a copy of HALO 3 and includes the EULA in the box, or in a game menu, then they are modifying the contract for sale after the sale has been completed. This is not legal unless they also accept open box returns, and make the return of their opened products a reasonable process. Reasonableness varies depending on the court, but here are some broad guidlines:

Able to return at the retailer from which I purchased it.
Able to call a number for MS printed on the box and have the return and refund arranged within a reasonable time.
Able to go on the internet to the MS site and arrange the return and refund in a reasonable time.

Otherwise the EULA is probably going to be ruled entirely unenforceable. Terms of Service are different, they are always enforceable unless unconscionable. Also if you install an update for a game and you agree to the EULA at that time, then you may be stuck as well.... Jury is still way out on this point.

Hmmm, now there is some useful information. I think I will start buying about 20 software products a day, opening them, then returning them because I object to the EULA.

 

[PNut12345]

What property is stolen, exactly, other than Microsoft's apparent asserted right to its profits?

Spoken like a true pirate...

 

[phide]

Who said anything about piracy...?

 

[PNut12345]

Ok, let me put it another way. Had it just been the Live ban, and not the install issue would you be singing a different tune?

That's aside from the memory card thing (which you do have a point on) and the profile "corruption" which I don't think you understand properly. All that happens with the profile is that if you decide to keep using it after your ban it becomes locked to that console, and that console alone. If you transfer it immediately after your ban (before you play / save any more games) then it still works. You can also still download your profile from XBL if you choose to get a new box.

Nothing gets corrupted, simply locked.

Finally, someone who appears to have read the article linked to by the OP...

From the article: (large font and red text is mine)

Firstly, and most obviously, you cannot connect to Xbox Live on this console any more. This means no more game updates (aka title updates), XBLA games, marketplace content, netflix/sky player and so on. There is no way around this, all online capabilities are now disabled PERMANENTLY.

In all likelihood, your gamertag has NOT BEEN BANNED. When your gamertag gets banned, Microsoft sends you an email detailing why, if you have not recieved this email then your profile should be ok, to a certain extent.

Hard Drive installs are now disabled on the banned console. This means any disk-based games you have will no longer play off of the hard drive. If you attempt to play a game, it will tell you that it was installed on a different 360 and needs to be deleted/installed again. When you delete the game and attempt to install it, you are given a message telling you that it is not supported. There is no way to fix this, that functionality is simply gone from the banned 360.

The hard drive itself is left untouched - you can place it in another 360, even an unbanned one, and it will still work just fine. You do NOT need to reformat it to regain any kind of functionality. Any installed games will need to be reinstalled for the console you want to play them on. This is normal behaviour and happens when swapping HDDs on unbanned/legit 360's.

Windows Media Centre functionality is disabled. It is still possible to stream video/music content via the video library.

Your Gamertag may be corrupted. This does not mean your gamertag has been banned, you can recover it using any live-capable 360, however ANY ACHIVEMENTS YOU HAVE EARNED SINCE BEING BANNED WILL BE LOST (Not all achievements, just the ones you got since the ban). Your gamertag will be corrupted EVERY SINGLE TIME it is used on a banned console. This means you cannot use your banned console to play backups offline just to get achievements - it wont work, the second you put your profile back on a good 360, it will be corrupted and all progress lost. There is no way around this.

The same applies to game saves - if you access a game save on a banned 360, it too will be corrupted when accessed on a legit/unbanned 360! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! There is no way around this, either.

Your XBLA games and DLC will still be valid, however to play them on a different 360 you will need to be signed into Xbox Live. This is normal behaviour on unbanned/legit 360's as well. They may be corrupted and have to be re-downloaded if you attempt to access them on a banned 360. Buy a new Arcade, put your HDD in, recover gamertag, enjoy the content you paid for. Simple.

You can transfer all of your downloaded content to a new 360 here: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/licensemigration/default.htm however note that you can only do it once every 12 months. Don't get banned for piracy twice in one year.

So, in summary your Banned 360:
• Cannot go on Xbox Live
• Cannot install games to the HDD
• Cannot use Windows Media Centre extender
• Cannot be used to get achievements from backups without corrupting your profile

You cannot do anything about this, short of buying a new 360.

Read more: http://www.ps3news.com/XBox-360/mor...-crippling-possible-ban-causes/#ixzz0WqgPzXSB

Big. Fucking. Deal. Buy your games, don't steal 'em. Better yet, get a gamefly account, it's, what, 15 bucks a month? Lot cheaper than a new console.

And seriously, before I see another "I need to play 'backups' because my 5 year old kid/niece/nephew has access to my xbox all the time!!!!!" They're DVDs, not Faberge eggs for chrissakes! My niece and nephew never fucked up any DVD movies or game discs in their house, at any time, at any age. If you're letting your 5 year old relatives play with things sharp enough to scratch the shit out of a DVD, you've got bigger problems than not being able to play a game

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Loki, I completely agree with you on this one.

Disabling live = Perfect response to the hacking action
Disabling functionality and data = Wrong
Zero tolerance for appeals = Intolerable

A problem that seems to be forming around this would also be the secondary market for system sales. One of my consoles was banned in this wave. Did I modify it? Nope. It is exactly in the same condition as when I bought it refurbished from a large chain retailer. I stopped pirating 12 years ago when I started to understand media rights and had a job that I could afford media purchases.

Now, I am caught in a catch-22. Microsoft won't allow me any sort of appeal, as they believe myself to have violated a TOS that I have followed and have kept myself a party to. Fine, as others have said, the retailer I purchased it from should be the responsible party. GameStop won't refund or exchange the system because they too believe I have modified the console after I bought it from them. Obviously, they didn't check the system properly to ensure what they were selling me was not going to be crippled at some later date.

the person who had the console before you most likely modded it and that is why it got banned. MS just dosen't willy nilly ban consoles.....

 

[Ocellaris]

Loki, I completely agree with you on this one.

Disabling live = Perfect response to the hacking action
Disabling functionality and data = Wrong
Zero tolerance for appeals = Intolerable

A problem that seems to be forming around this would also be the secondary market for system sales. One of my consoles was banned in this wave. Did I modify it? Nope. It is exactly in the same condition as when I bought it refurbished from a large chain retailer. I stopped pirating 12 years ago when I started to understand media rights and had a job that I could afford media purchases.

Now, I am caught in a catch-22. Microsoft won't allow me any sort of appeal, as they believe myself to have violated a TOS that I have followed and have kept myself a party to. Fine, as others have said, the retailer I purchased it from should be the responsible party. GameStop won't refund or exchange the system because they too believe I have modified the console after I bought it from them. Obviously, they didn't check the system properly to ensure what they were selling me was not going to be crippled at some later date.

buying from the secondary market is a risk and you took it. its not microsoft's problem tha you bought a hacked console from a gamestop. gamestop should be on the hook for selling you a modded console, so take it up with them. however it is microsoft's problem that you have a console that can play downloaded games now (maybe), so you got banned from live and penalized. ms has no reason to grant you an appeal you are already guilty of violating the tos and they can't undo your mod for you. but feel free to buy another 360!
Posted via [H] Mobile Device

 

[Rash]

lol, this thread is funny reading, morale of the story: DONT PIRATE, dont buy second hand unless you get sufficient third party warranty/coverage from second hand retail shop, dont buy second hand console off ebay or out of paper, dont use third party peripherals and DONT PIRATE!! im just off to play forza on my brand new 250gb elite!!

anyway who reckons MS waited this long to ban so many users, just after a price drop and right before christmas!!? i reckon MS will be top of npd because of this in november and december!!

 

[Psychotext]

i reckon MS will be top of npd because of this in november and december!!

I think that might be going a little far. It'll improve their sales a bit, but I doubt it'll put them on top.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

I am not a console player nor do I use the xbox live service. I do however have been reading this topic and it does intrigue me. Here is the part that must be looked into

1- Xbox Live is a service and said service you the user has agreed to the terms and conditions. I have no issue with this. I agree with it

2- if you the user breaks the agreement then MS has the right to block/ban you from said service. Again I have no issues with it and I do agree with it

With both of those points said MS however has NO right to go into your xbox and disable features of it which has nothing to do with the live service. If I would go into bestbuy or who ever and buy a brand new xbox and get all the goodies for it and then use it to play a game(s) or what ever then so be it.

Now if I decide to NOT get xbox live service then I should be good to go. I can mod the hell out of it and do what I please. I am not a live subscriber so the xbox is all parts I can do with it what I want.

If I was a Live Subscriber then if I break the Live service agreement then I lose and forfeit all rights to said service. I do understand that my access to the live service can be terminated and banned/blocked. Well again I do agree with that and support it. However MS has no right to go into the xbox and cripple/disable features of it period.

Precedence -

Now some of you would say BS to that, well wrong why -

If this is the case then what is to stop your ISP from going into your pc and disabling features in it if you break the subscriber agreement. Its wrong and flat out illegal.

They can ban you from the service but they have no right into breaking your pc/xbox. Now if MS did cripple the xbox and its features like off line play and other things then they in my opinion broke the law. They can ban you, they can block your access to Live service but they don't have the right to break your console from ALL NON LIVE SERVICE features. Last I checked playing a game off line ( stock out of the box ) wasn't a crime.

If you think that MS has the right to go into your xbox/pc and break it then get ready for other companies to do the same. Soon ISP's will be terminating your ISP accounts and access if this continues and is allowed.

Again I am on MS side when it comes to the XBOX Live Service, if you break the agreement then you are blocked/banned from using the live service. I do not support MS in going into your xbox and crippling/breaking/disabling features of the xbox itself. In this case MS has gone way to far and has indeed crossed the line.

Edit:

There is a unban me hax that will be going LIVE soon to bypass the latest 1 million xbox banned crap that MS just did.

 

[Psychotext]

Have you actually seen that unbanning thing? You need a very specific model of xbox, with a particuar dashboard version (which hardly anyone has), and more than that... that particular xbox can't have been banned or you can't use the serial from it. Plus, of course, as soon as you take your previously banned xbox online it'll get that flagged again for banning, which will also take out your unbanned box (as they now have the same identifiers). Clever stuff. lol

Oh, and regarding the ISP situation you mentioned. The ISP doesn't own the software on your PC. Microsoft does own the software on the 360.

 

[Deleted member 136890]

Have you actually seen that unbanning thing? You need a very specific model of xbox, with a particuar dashboard version (which hardly anyone has), and more than that... that particular xbox can't have been banned or you can't use the serial from it. Plus, of course, as soon as you take your previously banned xbox online it'll get that flagged again for banning, which will also take out your unbanned box (as they now have the same identifiers). Clever stuff. lol

No I havent seen it in action, just some reading on it.

Oh, and regarding the ISP situation you mentioned. The ISP doesn't own the software on your PC. Microsoft does own the software on the 360.

So just because I run Win 7 Ultimate on my PC that gives MS the right to go into my PC and cripple/break it because I "modded" my pc.

 

[Psychotext]

No, but if you sign up to a service which says they can modify the system software at any point... then unsurprisingly they can modify the system software at any point. You might not like the modifications they make... but you play the game, you take your chances.

 

[Mekanic01]

Ok, didn't read the whole thread, and, not gonna.

Here's what you need to realize. EULAs, TOSs, disclaimers, etc. are designed in a progressive form. As a law suit pops up, they will get tighter. Burger King never needed an "It's hot!" sign, until some stupid lady spilled her McD's coffee in her lap.

Point being, people keep going after corporations for stupid little shit like this, and sooner or later, you'll be physically signing a contract to buy something. ESPECIALLY when it comes to Microsoft. Probably the most corrupt company in the world, been sued how many times now? They are going to do everything in their power to stay on top.

Hey, good luck.

 

[Psychotext]

Oh, and for what it's worth... if they've done something illegal here, they'll get pulled up for it. Especially by the EU who are always looking for new ways to fund their extravagant parties.

 

[Zachstar]

Loki, I completely agree with you on this one.

Disabling live = Perfect response to the hacking action
Disabling functionality and data = Wrong
Zero tolerance for appeals = Intolerable

A problem that seems to be forming around this would also be the secondary market for system sales. One of my consoles was banned in this wave. Did I modify it? Nope. It is exactly in the same condition as when I bought it refurbished from a large chain retailer. I stopped pirating 12 years ago when I started to understand media rights and had a job that I could afford media purchases.

Now, I am caught in a catch-22. Microsoft won't allow me any sort of appeal, as they believe myself to have violated a TOS that I have followed and have kept myself a party to. Fine, as others have said, the retailer I purchased it from should be the responsible party. GameStop won't refund or exchange the system because they too believe I have modified the console after I bought it from them. Obviously, they didn't check the system properly to ensure what they were selling me was not going to be crippled at some later date.

That is between you and gamestop. My local game exchange reported to me that they have rejected numerous console trades (Especially lately) because they do simple checks that have a high probability of detecting mods of voiding of warranty.

People when you buy a used console DEMAND to check to see if the warranty sticker is safe and secure! Bring a camera and DOCUMENT everything with the console you can see without voiding the warranty. Make sure you get an image of the warranty sticker.

Tho I have to admit I am skeptical gamestop does not check for mods. Are you 100 percent sure you diddnt have a friend or somthing that likes to suddenly mod consoles "For his buds" ?

 

[jgoewert]

buying from the secondary market is a risk and you took it. its not microsoft's problem tha you bought a hacked console from a gamestop. gamestop should be on the hook for selling you a modded console, so take it up with them. however it is microsoft's problem that you have a console that can play downloaded games now (maybe), so you got banned from live and penalized. ms has no reason to grant you an appeal you are already guilty of violating the tos and they can't undo your mod for you. but feel free to buy another 360!
Posted via [H] Mobile Device

Obviously, I have taken it up with GS, as I pointed out in my original post, even to the point of sending a executive email carpet bomb. Their contention is "I did it, sucks to be me."

"you are already guilty of violating the tos"
Really, I read through and I see absolutely nothing in there that says that I broke the TOS. I didn't mod it. I didn't get someone else to mod it for me.

And, while you state that you don't believe MS is a party to this. I couldn't understand this up until the point that they were the ones who own the Live service I use, not the console that I bought. If this had only affected Live functionality and had an inplace appeals or repair process, it wouldn't have been as bad of an issue.

Imagine if Ford (or whatever car you have) decides that they are going to permanently disable the air conditioner, windshield wipers, and headlights of all cars that have ever been used in a crime and you just bought a car from a used car company that just happened to have bought it from a police auction. The used car company wouldn't have any forewarning from Ford about this and let's face it, would you have thought "I wonder if next year Ford is going to start mess up used cars out of the blue?" No, you wouldn't have. 20/20 hindsight is a little hard to have. Hey, the car is still driveable, you just can't do it at night or when it is raining and during summer, you only get 4 window AC. So, just run out and get another one.

Tho I have to admit I am skeptical gamestop does not check for mods. Are you 100 percent sure you diddnt have a friend or somthing that likes to suddenly mod consoles "For his buds" ?

No, I'm sure they don't. From every forum I have been reading, all they do is check the sticker right behind the front cover is there and make sure it boots with the cables it comes in with. Maybe you teenies have "buds" that do those things, but being a pretty aged and quite technical man, I doubt I'd need a "bud" to softmod one of these for me. Open a case, plop on a spare SATA cable, extra a key from the firmware, change some stuff in hex and dump it back... I do more challenging things daily at work. And I highly doubt my oldest child of 9 year old could have done it. If he did, I'd be more proud about it.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

I am not a console player nor do I use the xbox live service. I do however have been reading this topic and it does intrigue me. Here is the part that must be looked into

1- Xbox Live is a service and said service you the user has agreed to the terms and conditions. I have no issue with this. I agree with it

2- if you the user breaks the agreement then MS has the right to block/ban you from said service. Again I have no issues with it and I do agree with it

With both of those points said MS however has NO right to go into your xbox and disable features of it which has nothing to do with the live service. If I would go into bestbuy or who ever and buy a brand new xbox and get all the goodies for it and then use it to play a game(s) or what ever then so be it.

Now if I decide to NOT get xbox live service then I should be good to go. I can mod the hell out of it and do what I please. I am not a live subscriber so the xbox is all parts I can do with it what I want.

If I was a Live Subscriber then if I break the Live service agreement then I lose and forfeit all rights to said service. I do understand that my access to the live service can be terminated and banned/blocked. Well again I do agree with that and support it. However MS has no right to go into the xbox and cripple/disable features of it period.

Precedence -

Now some of you would say BS to that, well wrong why -

If this is the case then what is to stop your ISP from going into your pc and disabling features in it if you break the subscriber agreement. Its wrong and flat out illegal.

They can ban you from the service but they have no right into breaking your pc/xbox. Now if MS did cripple the xbox and its features like off line play and other things then they in my opinion broke the law. They can ban you, they can block your access to Live service but they don't have the right to break your console from ALL NON LIVE SERVICE features. Last I checked playing a game off line ( stock out of the box ) wasn't a crime.

If you think that MS has the right to go into your xbox/pc and break it then get ready for other companies to do the same. Soon ISP's will be terminating your ISP accounts and access if this continues and is allowed.

Again I am on MS side when it comes to the XBOX Live Service, if you break the agreement then you are blocked/banned from using the live service. I do not support MS in going into your xbox and crippling/breaking/disabling features of the xbox itself. In this case MS has gone way to far and has indeed crossed the line.

Edit:

There is a unban me hax that will be going LIVE soon to bypass the latest 1 million xbox banned crap that MS just did.

they MS has the right to protect their content. They are so crystal clear on their position. If you mod their console, you pay the price. They disable the console's ability to create trusted content and that affects media center functionality and the ability to connect to their service (Xbox live).

and to the unban trick, yeah that'll work for all of about a minute before they (MS) ban the console that was used to unban the banned console and reban the orginally banned console. But they will most likely let the suckers think they got away with it before they slap the ban hammer down again.


For those of you whining about I didn't mod it but they banned me when you bought a used system....lol this is not their fault either as 5 seconds with google and common sense tells you not to buy a used console......i mean really are you to damed lazy to do some basic research?

I can sum up MS EULA in about 2 sentances

1. if you fuck with our or console in any way, we will shove a dick up your ass.
2. read the above.

 

[Mikerocks2112]

This whole fiasco has been hilarious. Pirates all over the internet trying to find sympathy for their illegal actions....just too funny.

 

[Zachstar]

Unban hax? LOL! MS has about 20 different ways to Ident consoles. I wonder how many idiots will try that unban hack and get a whole batch of actual Xbox live (Not just console) accounts banned,

I rub my hands with Joy! MS ban these idiots from Live this time as well as console! Maybe when they lose all achievements and stuff they may think twice.

 

[Psychotext]

This whole fiasco has been hilarious. Pirates all over the internet trying to find sympathy for their illegal actions....just too funny.

How dare you! There are no pirates, simply a million or so people with young kids / nephews / nieces armed with hammers, sandpaper and various scratchy implements with which to destroy discs.

 

[Loki008]

How dare you! There are no pirates, simply a million or so people with young kids / nephews / nieces armed with hammers, sandpaper and various scratchy implements with which to destroy discs.

Again i wrote this letter with no sympathy for those who pirate content. The only thing i said about this is that there is a fair use argument for wanting to be able to make copies of the disk you own, I conceed that most of the modded console are done so to pirate games, i just feel that if the content manufacturers are going to hide behind the DCMA to prevent fair use copies then they should provide a reasonable disk replacement program. AKA you send us the broken / scratched disk and $5 to cover replacement and shipping and we will send you a replacement disk. But this is not the point of the OP.

My whole issue is that microsoft is disabling OFFLINE functionality for a violation of the ToS which governs access to their online service. Sure they are within their rights to deny you access to the online service.

Even if you accept that they are within their rights to block the ability for the modified consoles to create "trusted" content such as game saves and installed games for security reasons, i do not see how disabling MCE has anything to do with creating this trusted content. And has nothing to do with blocking Datel memory cards.

Again i am not arguing this to protect the pirates, but to me it seems like something that has exceeded their legal rights to protect their content. Everyone here would be up in arms if the RIAA or MPAA attempted something like this, yet for some reason seems to be ok with microsoft doing it. This is what i do not understand.

How would it be accepted if a Sony DVD player was able to track if it has played a DVD-R copy of a movie, and down the road sony included an update that was automatically installed next time you played a Sony pictures movie that detected if you had played a pirated copy of a movie as well as disabled the ability to access DVD extras from that point forward?

 

[roaf85]

OP = original poster = one person. Everyone = all people as part of a particular group = many people.

I'm not a scholar of English nor am I a mathematician, but I think "one" and "many" are different.

Regardless how many pirates come out and say "hey I was playing games I did not own?". None it is always "well I live with children and all I want to play is my backups, or I wanted additional media functions!".

 

[Ocellaris]

Even if you accept that they are within their rights to block the ability for the modified consoles to create "trusted" content such as game saves and installed games for security reasons, i do not see how disabling MCE has anything to do with creating this trusted content. And has nothing to do with blocking Datel memory cards.

Again i am not arguing this to protect the pirates, but to me it seems like something that has exceeded their legal rights to protect their content. Everyone here would be up in arms if the RIAA or MPAA attempted something like this, yet for some reason seems to be ok with microsoft doing it. This is what i do not understand.

I would think most people are OK with it simply because they did not mod their consoles to play downloaded games. While I am sure MS has a reason for why they killed MCE on banned consoles, its a nice FU to the kids playing free games. The loss of media functionality on top of everything else is a penalty and a deterrent to prevent future users from doing the same.

 

[Zachstar]

Agreed. And the AG is not going to change that. The president and congress have expressed stronger stances towards preventing piracy. So go cry someone else back how pirating made you lose your media functions. I laugh at thee!!!