My letter to the AG's office over the recient microsoft bans

I do have one question for the OP... you clearly feel bad for the pirates, but how do you feel about the devs who are affected by their actions?
 
Psychotext said:
I do have one question for the OP... you clearly feel bad for the pirates, but how do you feel about the devs who are affected by their actions?
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As i stated before, i do not feel bad for the pirates. If they are going to get kicked off live so be it. I just do not like the precedent that something like this sets.

You do something we don't like to the hardware you own, we have the right to disable parts (and who stops them from rrod'ing the box next time?) of the device as punishment.

What stop router manufacturers from doing something like this if you load dd-wrt on to a router because they just came out with a higher functional model?

While i do feel that some of the drm restrictions are overly restrictive i fully support the developers right to protect their product and i understand that it is a delicate balance between their rights and the consumers and that is why i am urging some push back on this idea of both the ban on memory cards and on moded xboxes.
 
Loki008 said:
What stop router manufacturers from doing something like this if you load dd-wrt on to a router because they just came out with a higher functional model?
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This is where you're missing the difference.

The router is a physical product. They can't prevent you from accessing the internet because a new model came out. Your internet service provider can however. And they do state rules for usign them. Obviously you're not supposed to do illegal things with your service with them and if they so desired they could block you from accessing their services.
 
Ok, let me put it another way. Had it just been the Live ban, and not the install issue would you be singing a different tune?

That's aside from the memory card thing (which you do have a point on) and the profile "corruption" which I don't think you understand properly. All that happens with the profile is that if you decide to keep using it after your ban it becomes locked to that console, and that console alone. If you transfer it immediately after your ban (before you play / save any more games) then it still works. You can also still download your profile from XBL if you choose to get a new box.

Nothing gets corrupted, simply locked.
 
Loki008 said:
Where as i had 3 modded xboxes so that i could run XBMC on them to basically get extender capabilities out of them before microsoft decided to add this feature. I would kill to be able to get XBMC on the 360. But i dont see this happening.

As for the backed up game part, I have a 5 year old nephew that lives with me and although i dont have a modded 360 i would see the ability to back up the games a god send. Barring that i would like to see what was suggested in the News section on this topic, the ability to take a scratched or damaged disk and send it back for a inexpensive replacement (at or near cost). I have already had one disk nearly destroyed after the console was bumped while playing. Luckly after quite a bit of resurfacing and repairing i was able to get the ring scratches out of the disk.
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Get this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103228 Use the USB method to install XBMC OS on there (Or Ubuntu and XBMC tutorial here http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=53812)

There is no reason to need to turn the 360 into an HTPC. Even the 45nm version is a power hog. The hardware is almost completely locked down and its IBM based which there is less and less non server class code for.
 
Psychotext said:
Ok, let me put it another way. Had it just been the Live ban, and not the install issue would you be singing a different tune?
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Nope, as i stated in my email if they want to ban the users for violating the ToS that is their choice (although i would disagree over bans involving hacked upgraded harddrives but from everything that i read this has not occured)

All that happens with the profile is that if you decide to keep using it after your ban it becomes locked to that console, and that console alone. If you transfer it immediately after your ban (before you play / save any more games) then it still works. You can also still download your profile from XBL if you choose to get a new box.

Nothing gets corrupted, simply locked.
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I may not completly understand exactly what happens to the profile, but it still doesnt change the fact that they remotely disable offline functionality with the xbox (extender and loading from harddrive)
 
When someone modifies their Xbox and uses it to connect to live they have already shown a lack of respect for the policy.

Therefore they are at that point no longer obligated to support extender or loading from hard drive.

Unless they are actively disabling the console from playing games in hard media forum the AG will point and laugh at these letters. Likely he/she thought from the getgo it was just another mad person with a banned xbox. (You ought to see the posts calling for class action lawsuits when these people couldnt even handle a small claims court)

Overall its FAIL
 
Zachstar said:
When someone modifies their Xbox and uses it to connect to live they have already shown a lack of respect for the policy.

Therefore they are at that point no longer obligated to support extender or loading from hard drive.
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Not supporting is different than actively disabling the feature.
 
Loki008 said:
Not supporting is different than actively disabling the feature.
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The core use of the system has not been altered. The AG is not going to go after a company for a crappy extender situation that few would use anyway after banning.

Its over MS has made their decision and if one does not like it Acer Revos start at 200USD people can just go to PC (And enjoy playing in open source game servers full of cheaters)
 
People... it's a service.

Live is a service with it's own seperate rights and rules. If it chooses to ban an illegaly modified console, then sobeit, because the console is sold seperately from Live, and always has been. Access to the service is a priviledge, not a right.
 
jeremyshaw said:
People... it's a service.

Live is a service with it's own seperate rights and rules. If it chooses to ban an illegaly modified console, then sobeit, because the console is sold seperately from Live, and always has been. Access to the service is a priviledge, not a right.
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People.... Please read.

Microsoft is going to the point where they are blocking 3rd party hardware and disabling offline functionality.

This is not about blocking live...
 
Loki008 said:
People.... Please read.

Microsoft is going to the point where they are blocking 3rd party hardware and disabling offline functionality.

This is not about blocking live...
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It is about blocking hackers, at any rate.

3rd party memory can have physical 'backdoors' to allow savegame modifications.
 
lol dumbass I hope the AG investigates you for stealing your pirated software.....
 
Loki008 said:
People.... Please read.

Microsoft is going to the point where they are blocking 3rd party hardware and disabling offline functionality.

This is not about blocking live...
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When will your lawsuit against apple be going live?
 
elrechazao said:
When will your lawsuit against apple be going live?
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PWNED!!

This is about making pirates finally pay. Yes its to big microsoft but 199 is a pretty big sting that may say "Maybe I ought to just buy and enjoy the game next time"

Wont work for many but that matters not because they wont be on live.
 
Besides they only corrupt the data when you move the drive to another console. So in essence, they haven't crippled that functionality - merely the HDD installs.

Your saves and profile work fine on the banned box; if you move that drive to an unbanned one - your gamer profile will be corrupt and you need to recover it. DLC and saves are fine though; at least on my boxes.
 
dezertrat said:
did you read the EULA ?



http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU.htm
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The jokes on you. If you didn't notice they always say "Service." It is stated that this "Service" is Xbox Live previously in the Terms of use unless otherwise stated. Just like it said they can disable this service (Xbox Live). Nowhere did it say that they can disable any offline capabilities that are not associated with Live.
 
The thing is...even if there was a case to answer, MS simply reply with "We cannot foresee the effects of software updates on systems which have been modified without our knowledge and authorisation".
 
Microsoft has recently released a mandatory update to their Xbox 360 gaming console
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First problem. The update is not mandatory. It is only mandatory if you want to use Xbox Live (silver or gold). Stay offline and you can keep playing all your games and use your unauthorized memory devices. So it is, in fact, voluntary. This pretty much destroys the rest of your points by itself.

which has 2 intentional effect designed to cripple the consoles functionality
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In regards to the memory issue it does NOT cripple the console, it cripples the memory cards ability to interface with the console. Microsoft has a legal right, in an update you install voluntarily, to make changes to the Xbox software that keep unlicensed memory cards from working with it. That they have the right to include this in updates is not even remotely debatable. Your lawsuit should be focused on the company that made the unlicensed memory card and the company that sold it to you.

Hard drive installs are disabled. This is not crippling. This will get you nowhere in court because you can still do everything you could do without it. You just have slightly longer load times.

Windows media center is disabled. This is crippling to that ability. However, that is not the core purpose of the console, and if they can demonstrate how disabling this feature is relevant to the abuses they are trying to stop then they will be fine. This is probably the strongest thing you have, and it isn't that strong.

and to corrupt data on the systems.
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No data is corrupted by this voluntary update. All your achievements are removed, which is not corruption.

Once again, I am not a lawyer, however I am aware that Connecticut has statutes in place that cover “computer crimes” and under Connecticut statutes chapter 949g section 53-541 defines a computer as :

“Computer" means an electronic, magnetic or optical device or group of devices that, pursuant to a computer program, human instruction or permanent instructions contained in the device or group of devices, can automatically perform computer operations with or on computer data and can communicate the results to another computer or to a person. "Computer" includes any connected or directly related device, equipment or facility that enables the computer to store, retrieve or communicate computer programs, computer data or the results of computer operations to or from a person, another computer or another device.

Under this definition the Xbox 360 is an electronic device (which also incorporates magnetic and optical storage devices) that pursuant to a computer program (game either stored on optical or magnetic media), human instruction (input via game controller) automatically perform computer operations with or on computer data and can communicate the results to another computer or to a person (via networking, the internet to other xbox consoles, or the television screen to the user).

Also in this statute it defines the following:
(14) A person is "without authority" when such person (A) has no right or permission of the owner to use a computer or such person uses a computer in a manner exceeding such right or permission
(b) Unauthorized use of a computer or computer network. It shall be unlawful for any person to use a computer or computer network without authority and with the intent to:
(1) Temporarily or permanently remove, halt or otherwise disable any computer data, computer programs or computer software from a computer or computer network;

Under this definition it could be argued that Microsoft corrupting game and user profile data as well as disabling functionality of the console even outside of their online service would fall into this category. Even if the End user license agreement were to grant Microsoft permission to perform this destructive action it could also be argued that this agreement would be unconscionable and that the average person would be unaware of what they were providing authorization for and if they were aware would not willingly provide Microsoft authorization to corrupt and disable their data.
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They get permission and authority when you chose to download the update, with the TOS (not EULA, this is a service) effectively acting as the notice of what may potentially be in any given update.
 
And that right there = PWNED!!

Topic over in my opinion. This is just one letter the AG will get from angry modders. Im out
 
They get permission and authority when you chose to download the update, with the TOS (not EULA, this is a service) effectively acting as the notice of what may potentially be in any given update.
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Nope, even non Xbox Live users are forced to get it. Even If you have the ethernet cable plugged in such as if you were using it as a media center extender. If you turn on your Xbox 360 even without a hard drive it will install the update with no button to cancel before the dashboard even loads without you choosing to connect to Xbox live and without a Silver or Gold membership. You do not agree to a EULA when purchasing the product, you agree to the EULA when you sign up for Xbox Live. Even a non-registered user (No Xbox Live) who connects their Xbox 360 to an ethernet port will have the update downloaded.

Oh, and the EULA is a set of rules. Not a law. Therefore it is not illegal to break the EULA unless there is a law against the exact rule you are breaking set in your area.
 
So this is quite interesting... apparently whilst you own the actual 360, you don't own the software which runs on it. The software is just licensed to you.

G. ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS

The software included in the Xbox Product is licensed to you, not sold. You are licensed to use such software only in your Xbox Product and you may not reverse engineer it, except as expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.

Attempting to defeat or circumvent the Xbox Product security or anti-piracy protection system may cause your Xbox Product to stop working permanently. It will also void your Limited Warranty, and may make your Xbox Product ineligible for authorized repair, even for a fee.
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So much for MS fucking with something you own. ;)
 
My favorite part of that letter was the "unjust enrichment" bit. Yes, I'm sure the AG totally believes you're not a lawyer, and would probably thank you for providing their entertainment for the day.

I'd love to see them go and sue you for violating the TOS, personally. I'm guessing you wouldn't like that end of the stick very much, would you?
 
He actually makes a point or two. It could go either way, but unless you're a lawyer or have some actual legal experience... GTFO. The OP put some time and thought in to this, and the various cries of "Pirate!" and "PWNED!" only make the bulk of other posters look foolish and reactionary. All I see in the last three pages are fine examples of just what's wrong with the internet, and we don't need that kind of shit around [H].
 
Why does everyone on the internet nowdays have such a sense of entitlement. If I wrote software, I'd release what appeared to be pirated copies into the channel all infected with horrible viruses or even worse, ones that will delete your drive. I have zero sympathy for pirates.

Edit: Oh I see it is over memory cards. Well I would not have such vengeance over that but their ban is still ok by me.
 
erwos said:
My favorite part of that letter was the "unjust enrichment" bit. Yes, I'm sure the AG totally believes you're not a lawyer, and would probably thank you for providing their entertainment for the day.

I'd love to see them go and sue you for violating the TOS, personally. I'm guessing you wouldn't like that end of the stick very much, would you?
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I am not a lawyer, I did take business law in school as an elective and actually paid attention and enjoyed the class so i have an understanding of basic legal theories.

As for violation of the ToS, what violations would that be? Is using a datel memory card a violation of the ToS? If so i would love them to sue me for that. I am almost certian they would not prevail and i would have a very strong defense of unconscionability due to it being a contract of adhesion. That is the reason microsoft is taking the steps of blocking the cards rather than take the issue to court. As i stated before the correct action would be to get an injunction against datel and seek damages for any violations of their IP. Not take actions agains the consumer who in good faith purchased the memory cards from reputable dealers.

The action of blocking a 3rd party memory card that you purchased in good faith and then saying you cant access the content off of that card until you buy our memory card IMHO is a pretty clear cut case of "Unjust Enrichment"
 
Loki008 said:
I am not a lawyer, I did take business law in school as an elective and actually paid attention and enjoyed the class so i have an understanding of basic legal theories.
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In an interesting coincidence, I might have seen a little bit or two of business law in my MBA classes. So, no, not impressed.

As for violation of the ToS, what violations would that be? Is using a datel memory card a violation of the ToS?
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It wouldn't even matter if it was - such a device is protected by the DMCA AFAIK. But, then again, the DMCA doesn't force Microsoft to allow such interoperability, either. A lawsuit about the memory cards would probably fail miserably, given that they explicitly warn against unauthorized hardware in the TOS. This doesn't make it right, but it does make it legal.

But, you're missing my point: when you open up your console and do anything to it, you're violating section 16, and they can toss your ass right off XBL. They spell it right out for you there. When you agree to XBL, they gain the rights, at least on paper, to modify your console almost however they please, and without telling you. Theoretically, they could sue you for breach of contract, too.

They weren't banning people for using Datel memory cards, they were banning them because they modded their DVD drives or used unauthorized hard drives.
 
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jeremyshaw said:
It is about blocking hackers, at any rate. 3rd party memory can have physical 'backdoors' to allow savegame modifications.
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Of what consequence is savegame modification to other players on XBL?

YeuEmMaiMai said:
lol dumbass I hope the AG investigates you for stealing your pirated software.....
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Heh. Your participation in this thread has been invaluable.

Psychotext said:
So this is quite interesting... apparently whilst you own the actual 360, you don't own the software which runs on it. The software is just licensed to you.
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Obviously. This is the case with all software.

Psychotext said:
So much for MS fucking with something you own. ;)
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You do own the X360, however, just not the license to resell the technologies it operates on. If Microsoft is able to disable core hardware functionality via XBL, this is very problematic for consumers. Even if not illegal, this is not something consumers should support.

Frankly, the acceptance (even its promotion) of Microsoft's capabilities here are pretty astounding to me. Yes, the EULA states that Microsoft has these capabilities, but that doesn't mean it should be condoned.
 
...and if we were talking about them doing it for the hell of it, I'd agree. But we're not, we're talking about them removing access to Live from people who pirate games.

I'd honestly rather they fucked them all in the courts... but I don't often get what I want.
 
I could see if they were adding bigger hard drives and they got banned. But stealing games? You can't be serious.
 
TheCadaver said:
I could see if they were adding bigger hard drives and they got banned. But stealing games? You can't be serious.
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Maybe the larger font will help...

It is not about the XBL ban. I agree with that. It is the fact that microsoft has taken it upon themselves to disable offline functionality of a peice of hardware you own remotely. I am not siding with those who pirate games, but rather saying this is not a positive precident to allow stand. ESPECIALLY when paired with the fact that at the same time they decided to block access to 3rd party accessories of which users purchased in good faith.
 
You do realise you missed the precedent for this sort of stuff by years right? Why act now?
 
Psychotext said:
Give me a break. Pirate mods console, gets access to free games... and loses access to Live. Oh yeah, they're really giving them a kicking. Would you have them put a little warning on the dashboard telling them they've all been naughty and should stop? Perhaps a box of flowers and a letter asking them nicely not to do it again?

Had they bricked the console, I'd probably agree. Though I'd rather they used the evidence they collected to take every last one of them to court in whatever countries have the appropriate laws in place.
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why, it would cost microsoft money to take them to court.. instead they banned them which costs microsoft nothing and forces the person to spend another 200 dollars on a new console.. microsoft doesnt bother with people pirating the game they just dont want them having XBL access.. other then that they couldnt give a crap what you did with your console since its no longer their responsibility after you voided the warranty..
 
Why? Because it would be hard to act self entitled and hard done by in a court when trying to explain why you broke a whole bunch of laws that are common knowledge to virtually everyone.
 
Psychotext said:
You do realise you missed the precedent for this sort of stuff by years right? Why act now?
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Citation needed. Has this been tested in court?

I really can't believe people are arguing on Microsoft's side on this one either. Xbox360 is not, and doesn't not contain a software product. It's a game console, the software required to run it is part of the console and can't be separated from it as far as the product is concerned. They're sold as one unit, and that changes Microsoft's obligations. They're selling you a console, they're not licensing you a console, so they no longer have the legal right to revoke features at their discretion. Yes, the line between software and hardware has been getting blurrier and blurrier over the years, but the fact is that a console is a unified product, and the way that it implements the features it provides to the user is really irrelevant. The embedded software is firmware, it's part of the hardware and not a separately licensed product. EULAs need not apply as they can't be applied to hardware.

It's also questionable whether they would have the legal right to do so even if it were an independent software license. Do you think Microsoft should be allowed to revoke your Windows 7 license because you chose to modify the software to e.g. install 3rd party themes (like the uxtheme.dll hack in XP)? I certainly don't, and I suspect the courts would agree. How far an EULA goes is very much a grey area, and personally I suspect that any restrictions beyond the basic license terms (duration, terms of support, copies allowed etc.) are unenforceable. Certainly it should not be permissible for a software vendor to tell you what you're allowed to use their product for.

This disabling complaint is not about piracy or any illegal activity, it's about Microsoft disabling features of the *console* (that is, not features of the XBL service) remotely. Regardless of whether or not you agree with their actions regarding pirates, I don't understand how people can agree with Microsoft, with no due process or oversight, disabling features of a console you legitimately purchased. This is not disabling pirated software or services whose terms were violated, it's about disabling hardware that was legitimately purchased (and if you want to see it that way, the firmware that was legitimately licensed along with it). It really doesn't matter one iota what you did with the console, the fact is that Microsoft bricked it remotely. Bringing up the fact that you might have been pirating games is like bringing up the fact that someone who hacked into your company network and deleted all the illegal MP3s was in the right, and that the company's legal protection from being hacked is invalidated by the fact that they had illegal MP3s on their network - that is, it's complete bullshit. Hell, they wouldn't even need to have MP3s on the network, since even that has not been shown by Microsoft in this situation as far as I can tell, your argument would be like 'oh they had Kazaa installed' being a legitimate defence to someone (say, the RIAA) hacking into your machine, uninstalling Kazaa and bricking your operating system to ensure that no MP3-related software could ever be installed again - and then as a punitive measure deleting all your legitimate iTunes songs and breaking your web browser. But no, this is all okay because you had software that can be used for pirated MP3s :rolleyes: And I thought the DMCA was bad. You people actually believe this is good? Or do you just not think about the consequences implied in your arguments?
 
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Citation: Google Apple and "disabling".

Here I'll start you off: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7017660.stm

...and what Microsoft has done here is no-where near as severe. Hell, not even close. Like it or not, MS provide regular software enhancements (which they own) to the system and could just as easily disable any of those enhancements at any time they choose, and for whatever reason they choose. This goes for Live access, or the ability of the system to install games to the HDD. You want to a buy a box with just the software that came with the system day one, be my guest... just don't expect it to stay that way if you connect it to Microsoft's services and accept any of their updates... especially if you've modded the machine and affected the system's integrity.
 
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