Munich Council: To Hell with Linux, We’re Going Full Windows in 2020

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,092
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Munich city council's administrative and personnel committee has decided to move any remaining Linux systems to Windows 10 in 2020. A coalition of Social Democrats and Conservatives on the committee voted for the Windows migration on Wednesday, Social Democrat councillor Anne Hübner told The Register.

    Munich rose to fame in the open-source world for deciding to use Linux and LibreOffice to make the city independent from the claws of Microsoft. But the plan was never fully realised – mail servers, for instance, eventually wound up migrating to Microsoft Exchange – and in February the city council formally voted to end Linux migration and go back to Microsoft.
     
    zamardii12 and DejaWiz like this.
  2. ir0nw0lf

    ir0nw0lf [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,786
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Add Munich to the growing list of cities who thought they were escaping the devil called Microsoft for the open-source waters of Linux only to revert at some point during the journey. Wonder if anyone there is yelling (in German of course) "This is the year of the Linux [desktop]!" o_O
     
    DejaWiz likes this.
  3. thewooster

    thewooster Gawd

    Messages:
    512
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    I love linux, I really really do. But it's just not great for desktop use for anyone who isn't a in dev or IT.
     
    TheSmJ, The Lamb, yourgrandma and 5 others like this.
  4. Shintai

    Shintai [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,299
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    I wonder how many years work and money they wasted trying to go Linux and LibreOffice.
     
  5. 5150Joker

    5150Joker 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,427
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Ah the failed promise of open source.
     
    Armenius, niconx, swatbat and 7 others like this.
  6. DejaWiz

    DejaWiz Oracle of Unfortunate Truths

    Messages:
    17,962
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2005
    I know how they feel. I usually install some flavor of Linux about twice to thrice a year in order to tinker around (which I've done since the Mandrake 7 days from 17/18 years ago), and it all comes back to the same conclusion: there are some differing serious limitations and bugs (varies depending on the distro) that still crop up, and I wind up going right back to Windows. Just installed Kubuntu 17.10 on my older laptop a few days ago, and it's still buggy with the software center crashing during the installation of whatever selected programs/games I pick. Tried to get Linux Mint 18.2 installed, but it won't boot from the HDD after installing (laptop thinks there's no OS installed, despite other distros seeing it and asking if I want to reclaim all HDD space or install alongside Linux Mint). This is with a full UEFI install, BTW...which Fedora 26 and Kubuntu 17 install and boot with, but Mint 18 just won't for some reason.

    ..I can only image the nightmare in a large corporate/government environment.
     
  7. darckhart

    darckhart n00bie

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Disagree. Have my parents and other friends/family on easy versions of linux (mint, ubuntu, etc) and they are perfectly content with desktop use. Most things are all browser now anyway (google suite, youtube, etc) and all "personal" stuff happens on smartphones, so I've had relatively little complaints about the desktop. Sure, initial setup is a bit of a pain, but I assume their IT would do that too. After that, it pretty much runs itself. As long as hardware doesn't change and network doesn't change too much, there's no real headache.
     
  8. thewooster

    thewooster Gawd

    Messages:
    512
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    I have personally used linux for all my desktops/laptops/etc for many years. Linux mint/Ubuntu are ridiculously easy to use compared to most distros in the fast (I though I mostly use arch). Even still, it sounds like your parents are the exception; while most people could use linux if they wanted to put in the time, most people are still just technologically illiterate. Even if most things can be done via browser, you have to have competent sys admins to set things up, and then you are limited to the exact applications you can use. While open source projects can do alot; governments especially will often have old, antiquated software stacks they need to make run, inhouse-applications, and quite honestly lots of random shit that just doesn't make sense. So while linux might work in an ideal environment, I just don't see most corporations or governments getting there.
     
    DejaWiz likes this.
  9. grtitan

    grtitan [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,255
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
  10. CptTrips

    CptTrips [H]Lite

    Messages:
    115
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2005
    Why'd you post a picture of Polish girls about a German city? Do they all look the same to you?
     
  11. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,361
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Microsoft moves a single facility to a small building (the ENTIRE thing fits in a picture where you can see in the windows) and you think Munich uprooted their entire IT because of it.

    It's seven floors. Not seventy. Any moderately-sized German town could fill seven floors of office building in moments.
     
    Armenius and face2palm like this.
  12. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,204
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    There's corruption in play 100% sure. For example why on earth would they use costly Exchange servers when a free, simple and working open source alternatives are available. Someone was either too inept to work without Microsoft or payolas were paid. Probably both.
     
    grtitan likes this.
  13. grtitan

    grtitan [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,255
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    And when the hell did I said all that crap that you claim i posted?

    And you really think that MS wasnt pissed the PR slap in the face they got when this move happened 10 years ago?

    You really think they would just let it pass?

    You are really naive.
     
  14. otherweeb

    otherweeb Gawd

    Messages:
    695
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Can we say yes without sounding nationalist?
     
    Armenius likes this.
  15. Vermillion

    Vermillion 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,839
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    It's amazing how many of you want to bash Linux and don't even bother reading the article. They failed to leave MS because they never should have tried to begin with.

    This was not a failure on the part of Linux and open source. This was a failure on their part plain and simple. They were idiots.

    Right from the article:

    So roughly 400 programs couldn't run on Linux and yet they still fucking tried? Pure stupidity. The bean counters only saw possible savings and their IT staff were run by morons.
     
  16. Dead Parrot

    Dead Parrot [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,080
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    There were girls in that beer picture?
     
  17. Lakados

    Lakados Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    186
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    You find me a free Linux based email system that has proper integration what ever passes for Linux's alternatives to Active Directory, and SharePoint, that senselessly integrates with the Office Suite and file shares, that also then ties into secure wireless systems and networking systems for proper VLAN integration and firewall access.

    When you start getting into the thick of it and you have a lot of complex systems all needing to integrate there are very few Open Source alternatives to the Microsoft lineup out there and none of them are particularly well polished.
     
  18. katanaD

    katanaD Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    333
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    his pic is in the same vein as the linked to article. but i like his better. more girls and beer
     
  19. Frobozz

    Frobozz [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,632
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2002
    Enjoy your lock-in, foreign company controlled cloud services, and Minecraft.
     
    /dev/null and BulletDust like this.
  20. PaulP

    PaulP Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    288
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    For my personal use, I always felt the pain of dealing with Windows was less than the pain of migrating to Linux. But since Windows 8/10 came out, I have changed my mind. When I retire my current Windows 7 system, I'm moving to Linux. I'm experimenting with Ubuntu on an old laptop right now, and so far it's going pretty well. Good riddance Microsoft.
     
    iNViSiGOD, /dev/null and BulletDust like this.
  21. face2palm

    face2palm Gawd

    Messages:
    537
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    There's quite a few of them popping up in this thread.
     
    GoldenTiger and DejaWiz like this.
  22. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,202
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    I absolutely LOVE to tinker around in Linux. I've compiled a lot of emulators, game source-ports, set up servers, networks, etc. in my house. However, there is no way I would want my work to switch over, and try to use it in a serious fortune-100 capacity. I mean, it could be done, but it would be a nightmare. We'd have to re-staff quite a bit of IT, workers do not like to learn new tools either, no matter how small the differences. That includes office applications, production applications, development environments, etc. Now, if the entire company was brought up on Linux from day one, that might work. There are plenty of companies out there that run just fine. Large corporations or government offices though... Switching from one to the other would be horrific.
     
  23. Ultima99

    Ultima99 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,477
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    I vote every picture in every article is now young cute girls drinking beer.
     
    tetris42, Armenius and Jim Kim like this.
  24. Dekoth-E-

    Dekoth-E- [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,580
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Beat me to it. Anyone who thinks exchange can be easily replaced clearly has never run more than a very simple setup. Also libre office sucks compared to office.
     
    Armenius and GoldenTiger like this.
  25. Todd Walter

    Todd Walter Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    242
    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Active Directory is just LDAP and you can use Samba if you want the file shares. Postfix for SMTP, Dovecot for IMAP, whatever you like. The only thing lacking is the integrated calendar which is 90% of what businesses want when they go Outlook/Exchange. LibreOffice for most tasks, but not the outliers that are useful like Project or Visio. Those wireless VLANs and firewalls that you clearly lack experience with work fine on Linux; those standards were developed in a POSIX world after all. Whether it's worth the TCO is the real question and right now it only fits SMBs; for Enterprise scale you want a vendor to yell at and your Microsoft VAR is it.
     
  26. kac77

    kac77 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,182
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Open source does not mean free. However, there are TONS of polished mail servers. Here's a full list:

    There are alternatives for SharePoint tons of them actually. Samba has been integrating with Active Directory for decades. In terms of wireless systems and networking systems, VLAN Integration, and especially firewall, what do you think those systems run? They run Linux or Unix. Again people have been integrating with this stuff for years.

    What the real problem is that hybrid environments can pose significant barriers to the two different paradigms and poor planning makes it a bitch to do. But can it be done? Um yeah. It's really not that hard anymore. Especially with Google in the mix as well.
     
  27. Chebsy

    Chebsy Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    243
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Are those girls with the beers Microsoft employees ?? ;);)
     
  28. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,202
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    We used to drink tons of beer when I worked there. (men and women) Release parties especially. I don't really miss it though. I'd rather have a spot of whiskey after work than beer at work.
     
  29. jwcalla

    jwcalla 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,581
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2011
    It makes sense since Windows has pretty much caught up to Linux by now.
     
    BulletDust likes this.
  30. TwiceOver

    TwiceOver 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,267
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    When you need Excel, you need Excel. Libre Apache Office (whatever it is called now) or "Sheets" just doesn't cut it. It's really the only thing Microsoft has going for it.

    Fragmentation certainly doesn't help at all.
     
  31. velusip

    velusip Gawd

    Messages:
    1,003
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    I'm a big supporter of GNU/Linux, but I agree that they were not cut out for the migration. Their major complaints from a few years ago was mail server compatibility. That's the worst excuse ever and a clear indication of "not even trying" considering how simple to configure and powerful the open source alternatives are. If the complaints are "I want my Microsoft-specific fluff feature", then buy it. And for the 200 other apps ;) it isn't difficult to rapidly replace custom administrative tools using common libraries and back-ends. It does take some time, but fuck, they had like 5 years. What have they been doing? Moaning?
     
    BitMaster likes this.
  32. BulletDust

    BulletDust [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,640
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2016
    Of course, that's an issue with Excel, not any office suite alternative. MS Office, the least compatible with international ISO standards office suite marketed as the most compatible office suite.

    The power of the MS marketing team, as evidenced by Germany's switch back to MS products....
     
    J3RK likes this.
  33. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    7,202
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Let the power of BOB compel you!

    BOB.jpg
     
    Todd Walter likes this.
  34. Bigdady92

    Bigdady92 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,550
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Windows is by far easier to manage, update, and control than linux when it comes to your low level help desk and support. Windows is used in schools, is familiar in homes, and people know how to work around and through that. Couple that with MS giving away Office for free to students it's a no brainer people open up Libre/Open Office and go "WTF is this garbage?" and the smallest issues compound into larger issues and the project fails completely.

    LInux is GREAT server OS, it's a horrible desktop OS.

    /linux admin
    //RedHat4LYFE
    ///3slashies
     
    GoldenTiger likes this.
  35. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Pick your own.....you deserve it.

    Messages:
    23,177
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    The problem with going all Linux is document compatibility.

    For better or for worse (actually for a lot worse) Microsoft's Office document formats have become the de-facto standard.

    While every open source office package supports opening them, they never render exactly the same as they do in a true MS Office install. Page margins, sizes, etc, etc are very slightly off in ways that add up and cause problems.

    If you are only doing business with other users of LibreOffice, LibreOffice is great, but as soon as you have to interact with others, the problems arise.

    It's really a freaking shame, as all it would take to get rid of Microsoft dominance of the desktop once and for all is sufficient critical mass.

    If it weren't for games and for Microsoft Office, I'd never use anything but Linux. Yes, even on the desktop.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
    Armenius and J3RK like this.
  36. TwiceOver

    TwiceOver 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,267
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Nah. Excel really is just better than all the others, has nothing to do with compatibility.
     
    Armenius and GoldenTiger like this.
  37. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Pick your own.....you deserve it.

    Messages:
    23,177
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000

    Excel has some advantages. It does much better with very large spreadsheets. If you need to graph 100,000 datapoints, Excel will do great, but LibreOffice will struggle.

    Some of Excel's UI (particularly the chart generation process, and various data manipulation tools) flow much better, though I have to say that 7 years later I still fucking hate the ribbon interface and wish I had traditional menus so I could find things easier.

    That aside, 99.9% of what I do as an engineer I can do just as well in either.
     
    BulletDust likes this.
  38. iNViSiGOD

    iNViSiGOD Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    504
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    To be fair, if you grew up in the tech world cutting your teeth on Windows then trying to suddenly transition to something *NIX based just isn't going to work. Linux requires you to know a little about your OS in the first place. I've been running various forms of Linux for about 8 years now and it all depends on what distro you are using. Is it Debian based? That would be distros like Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Linux Mint etc etc. Or is it Arch based? Like Manjaro, Antergos? While most distributions use the Linux kernel, there underlying architecture can vary so one persons distro of choice might not be another persons.

    It also depends on what your using it for as well. All the VM's on my hypervisor run Linux based servers, however on my personal workstation I dual boot Windows 10 and Arch Linux. Each serves it's purpose.
     
  39. ranger2990

    ranger2990 n00bie

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    windows ltsb with msmg removing crap.best os ever.
     
  40. BulletDust

    BulletDust [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,640
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2016
    And if the scenario was reversed and the tech world had been Linux based as opposed to forcefully Windows based, you'd be saying the same thing. As a technically inclined individual, let alone an actual tech, you should be fluent in the operation of both Linux and Windows anyway - Hypothetically speaking.
     
    iNViSiGOD likes this.