MSI GeForce RTX 2070 GAMING Z Performance Review @ [H]

InquisitorDavid

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Except 1060 (not 1070) was ~980 and 1070 (not 1080) was ~>980ti, while 1080 was > 980ti. Similar to how 900 series stacked against 700. But now we see 2080 ~>1080ti and 2070 slightly > 1080. So only this time it moved one level with significant price increase. Many 1080 boost above 2000 out of the box and could potentially match out of the box 2070 btw.

Not quite. Check the GPU Clock Speed Consistency section of the review: both cards are AIB custom overclocked models, and boost to similar clock speeds. ~30mhz isn't likely to create a 8-16% performance gap, especially since the 1080 has more cores against the 2070.
 

brentsg

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That sentence doesn't even make sense. Law = legal. No one is saying anything criminal happened.

Breaking contracts is breaking the law.
Breaking a contract is simply a private matter, so no.. it is not breaking the law.

I can sign on to mow your lawn every week for a year. If I don’t show up one week, no laws have been broken. I’m in breach of contract, that’s it.
 

Teenyman45

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This presupposes that a contract is legal.
The existence of a contract, of any kind, between the seller and Nvidia generally has no bearing on HardOCP as the buyer. A contract between two private entities is not on the same level as an actual law. As long as the seller didn't steal from NVidia and you aren't knowingly buying stolen goods, then NVidia's redress is with the seller.

That this allows you to to poke directly at a company whose bad behavior deserves this sort of specific targeted response makes it all the sweeter.
 
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Hmm.

Double digit performance increase over the previous gen? Interesting!
The fact that it's only that way OVERCLOCKED? Meh.

And good on you for shitting on NVIDIA's shoes.
 

DarkLegacy

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My comment was about people criticizing only Nvidia in the comment section. the article was great at calling out Vega 64 as as being a bad choice.
That is just a sign of the times changing. People want to stretch their dollar as far as it can go. They want much more for much less. Which isn't a bad thing at all but man has it created some cheap as all hell individuals lol. While the GPU is more expensive than it should be, its performance as displayed in this review justifies some of that price. We'll have to wait what role ray tracing & DLSS plays but looking at the two, I would easily go with a new RTX 2070 over a used GTX 1080. Especially since I only purchase new products these days & not second hand/used.
 
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InquisitorDavid

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Hmm.

Double digit performance increase over the previous gen? Interesting!
The fact that it's only that way OVERCLOCKED? Meh.

And good on you for shitting on NVIDIA's shoes.

Huh? Check it again - both the 1080 and the 2070 were clocked at similar speeds (check clock speed consistency). Clock-for-clock, it's still better considering a deficit in cores and other resources.
 
D

Deleted member 126051

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The biggest problem I have is when (if) ray tracing comes to fruition soon, the performance hit is going to drag these first-gen RTX cards through the mud, resulting in a huge loss on investment.

Nobody is going to want to pay the artificially inflated prices for a 30-50% hit in FPS, and that's also going to kill the used market values.

Honestly?

#0FucksGiven

Anyone buying VIDEO CARDS as "an investment" is both missing the point AND fully deserving of whatever comes to them...
 
D

Deleted member 126051

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Huh? Check it again - both the 1080 and the 2070 were clocked at similar speeds (check clock speed consistency). Clock-for-clock, it's still better considering a deficit in cores and other resources.
I was talking vs the 1070.
 

InquisitorDavid

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I was talking vs the 1070.
Well, even if you clocked them the same, you'd end up with base 1080 FE speeds, which is *still* double-digit gains (25-40%) over a 1070. So...

EDIT: Oh, sorry, correction, even more, because a 1080 FE is already that much, but with the theoretical difference between archs displayed in this review, you'll end up easily a lot more.
 

Jza

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Update: MSI has contacted us today asking HardOCP to remove this RTX 2070 review, even though MSI had nothing to do with sourcing this review. NVIDIA's green feathers are apparently flying over this RTX 2070 review being published before its embargo date and time that is has with reviewers that signed its NDA. This is how things turn out when NVIDIA tries to force 5 year blanket NDAs down journalists throats. We chose not to sign NVIDIA's NDA. Our review is 100% legitimate and we are not going to remove it because NVIDIA is throwing a fit over it being published. The fact of the matter is that NVIDIA changed its entire NDA/Product Embargo structure after we reported on GPP this year. It did this to muzzle stories about NVIDIA in the future, and it is on NVIDIA for tying that to its product reviews. It is sad that MSI is having to deal with the brunt of NVIDIA's fury over this, and to that, we are sorry that is happening. This review could have easily been over any other AIB's card, it just so happens that an MSI card was the first one that we could source.

Awesome. Intel & NVIDIA getting checked and some people with some ethics aren't folding to their pressure. Thanks [H], Gamers Nexus, and others for sticking up for the enthusiast first! MSI, if you are reading this, thank you for the MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC, it's been a champ thus far. This RTX 2070 looks great, but I will still never pay that much for a graphics card. Nice card. Nice review.
 

chithanh

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I said there is something ethically wrong with doing anything where you know another person broke a contract to enable it. I have lots of analogies -- it's like dating a married woman, technically she's the one that is cheating right?
There is nothing ethically wrong with that.
In some countries, sex outside marriage is forbidden and punishable by law, so there you might have a point with the analogy.
But in all civilized places, that is a matter of agreement between the married woman and whomever she is married to. How to reconcile the act of dating someone with being married to someone else is completely on her.
Even if you didn't break a contract yourself, you were enabled by something that was legally wrong. It is like buying stolen property and saying "I wasn't the one who stole it".
Stolen goods are something completely different. There was an actual crime involved. A breach of a civil contract and a criminal offense are to be treated much differently.

In most countries you cannot legally acquire stolen goods, not even in good faith. (Some exceptions like the Netherlands exist.)
 
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Deleted member 126051

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Regarding the idea that NDAs are evil, it is important to contrast that with the alternative -- a free-for-all where reviewers scramble to get publicly available stuff.

With NDA: Hey reviewers -- you get preview hardware (possibly cherry picked so use grain of salt) and two weeks to write up thoughtful reviews and you can all publish at the same time along with all the excitement the company is trying to generate around the launch. All they ask is you coordinate the date.

Without NDA: Launch date arrives and reviewers wait, like everyone else, for their orders to arrive. Reviewers in far-flung places like Australia might get theirs days later than others. Then journalistic integrity will be sorely tested because you want to do a thorough review but are under intense pressure to not be scooped by other review sites. Even end customers are are scooping you with reviews before you get to publish yours.

Now certainly NDAs can be weird and onerous. I'm just saying the general hate and suspicion around NDAs is unwarranted.

I think people are getting confused between these NDAs (embargo to a specific, near-term date) and NDAs that apply forever (like a Stormy Daniel's hush contract).

Nobody's saying "NDAs are evil".

However, the current 5-year NDA being pushed by NVIDIA is a weapon with which to club venues like [H] into submission.
 
D

Deleted member 126051

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That sentence doesn't even make sense. Law = legal. No one is saying anything criminal happened.

Breaking contracts is breaking the law.

Civil vs Criminal is what he probably intended to say.

There are a different evidentiary standard for each.

[H], having no legal tie to NVIDIA or any of their partners, has run afoul of NEITHER standard.
 

Derangel

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Civil vs Criminal is what he probably intended to say.

There are a different evidentiary standard for each.

[H], having no legal tie to NVIDIA or any of their partners, has run afoul of NEITHER standard.
Yes, yes it was. Sorry for the confusion. I should not be making serious responses to posts when I tired.
 

noko

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Love the stand out review, no BS marketing crap, straight to what counts. Pure GOLD review.

Caring first for the users, readers here over not wanting to hurt some other reviewer feelings lol, to me means pure loyalty to us.

I was very surprised at the 4K benchmarks. Unexpected this card handled it so well. DSLL should even help out even better here.

I hope $499 versions are readily available for sell, most should OC good enough making this card worth it.

Down side if it matters to you, no SLI capability, no NVlink. Higher priced variable rate refresh monitors, no support for HDMI UHDTVs with support for Adaptive Synch.

There is no competition for this card from AMD.
 

Michaelius

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Good job with review. If Nvidia is pissed it serves them well because they had opportunity to provide fair review terms like they used to for years instead they tried to play AMD and influence reviews.


Hmm I wonder if this card would be good upgrade over 980ti (reference) I have now. 1080 seemed a bit too small for the performance gained but this is another 10-20% faster.
Do you think for games where i have 60-70 fps at 1440p will it bring them to 90-100 ?
 

DejaWiz

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Honestly?

#0FucksGiven

Anyone buying VIDEO CARDS as "an investment" is both missing the point AND fully deserving of whatever comes to them...
Perhaps you misunderstood. My underlying point is: investment meaning "the MUCH higher price for a mid-range GPU compared to the pricing of the same tiers of previous generations, but performance tanks massively (to the realm of completely unusable) when ray tracing is used, thus not giving any justification for the much higher pricing, which instantly tanks the value."
 

Dayaks

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Good job with review. If Nvidia is pissed it serves them well because they had opportunity to provide fair review terms like they used to for years instead they tried to play AMD and influence reviews.


Hmm I wonder if this card would be good upgrade over 980ti (reference) I have now. 1080 seemed a bit too small for the performance gained but this is another 10-20% faster.
Do you think for games where i have 60-70 fps at 1440p will it bring them to 90-100 ?
If you have an overclocked 980ti that sounds about right. If it’s not overclocked could be a little more. Assuming you are GPU bottlenecked and not CPU.

This series is strange because the value is flat across it. The 2080 is about 30% faster for 33% more. 2070 would be more attractive at $499 but I doubt any AIBs will have cards that low.

Perhaps you misunderstood. My underlying point is: investment meaning "the MUCH higher price for a mid-range GPU compared to the pricing of the same tiers of previous generations, but performance tanks massively (to the realm of completely unusable) when ray tracing is used, thus not giving any justification for the much higher pricing, which instantly tanks the value."
We don’t know much about RT yet except DICE thought there were easy ways to increase FPS. I also highly doubt nVidia would commit so much of their die (and basically double the price of their die) if that was true. I am not saying don’t be skeptical but it sounds like you are stating fact, which it’s not. “Wait for december for proper ray tracing games” is the advice I would give if RT is a deciding factor.

There’s also DLSS, which I am more excited for, if nVidia would just implement the damned thing...
 
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Eurico

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So because you didn't sign the NDA, you thought it was okay to undercut all the other reviewers who did? Because why? You want to spite Nvidia or something?
I'd like to mention that Steve (GamersNexus) didn't sign recent AMD NDA's, but still managed to source early Ryzen chips and chose not to publish until the NDA date out of respect for other reviewers.

This is a scummy move.
I honestly have the utmost respect for Kyle and HardOCP's community for doing what they do. Corporations such as nVidia force reviewers to practices that are bad for consumers and for transparency. I really wish there were many more like Kyle not submitting to these scummy rules and therefore doing what is best for the consumers (you know, the ones that spend they hard-earned money and make these corporations very rich).
 

DejaWiz

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We don’t know much about RT yet except DICE thought there were easy ways to increase FPS. I also highly doubt nVidia would commit so much of their die (and basically double the price of their die) if that was true. I am not saying don’t be skeptical but it sounds like you are stating fact, which it’s not. “Wait for december for proper ray tracing games” is the advice I would give if RT is a deciding factor.

There’s also DLSS, which I am more excited for, if nVidia would just implement the damned thing...

You're right - we don't know much about RT, aside from the very small amount of initial tech demos showing the RTX struggling to pump out playable FPS rates, and so many other variables leaving more question marks. Maybe some refinements in future drivers coupled with properly optimized game engines will allow RT to shine on this first gen of RTX offerings. Perhaps not. Steep price to pay for a gamble of this magnitude, IMO...

But, alas, that is merely my own perception based opinion based on early results.
 

next-Jin

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I’m thinking the prices for the entire 20X0 lineup is so high because of the die sizes.

I can’t believe they would just skyrocket the prices so much effectively moving them all up one tier performance/cost wise.

This card should historically be under 500, preferably 450.
 

lostin3d

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Many 1080 boost above 2000 out of the box and could potentially match out of the box 2070 btw.
Kyle addressed that in this article. I also know that because by 1080's are usually running 2038-2063MHZ/10.6GHZ 60-70c. My 1080TI is 2025MHZ/11.6GHZ ~50c. I only state 'usually running' because some games with unreal4 can be a little crash happy with anything other than stock overclocks.
 

quiktake

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I'd say it is better to buy this card than a 1080ti brand new. But they need to lower the price to $500 to make it a compelling product for anyone to upgrade from an AMD 290 / nvidia 970 or below.
 

ebduncan

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Still want to much $$ for the RTX cards. Considering your almost buying 1080ti performance for a 100-200$ premium. RTX still does nothing.

Nice review. Never would have thought I actually got a good deal on a Vega 64 for 400$, but its looking more and more like it wasn't a half bad decision.
 

psyclist

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My take on GPU's at this point is to wait for 7nm, we are so close and its going to enable another great leap forward, coupled with PCIe 4.0 coming i would sit on whatever youve got for another generation, or pick a last gen card at a solid discount. This has two effects, tells Nvidia they have priced themselves out of the market for the performance given, and also gives the market time to adopt ray tracing, so we as consumers can decide if its worth it to invest in currently. After all, if I just spent $599 on a GPU that I can only play 720/900p 60fps with Ray tracing on, id be pretty pissed, so much GPU area wasted IMO if this turns out to be true...Im on the wait and see train, to each their own though.
 

Aireoth

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This outrage, moral authority, white knite bullshit culture is hilarious!

It seems it's all ok to call shit on someone else as long as they are just the right size (hardware review site) but if they are big enough it's just 'what can you do' (Nvidia). Well this bitch, this is what you can do to reject the practices of Nvidia and their NDA. Source a card early without signing an NDA, and publish your review. It's a blow for reviewer freedoms.
 

Derangel

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I'd say it is better to buy this card than a 1080ti brand new. But they need to lower the price to $500 to make it a compelling product for anyone to upgrade from an AMD 290 / nvidia 970 or below.
Depends on the price of the 1080ti. At MSRP for both, it very well could be a better buy. It should come out around 10-15% slower for around $100, or so, less. However, if you run across a new 1080 ti for $650 or less then I'd say it makes the 1080 ti a better buy.
 

Michaelius

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Depends on the price of the 1080ti. At MSRP for both, it very well could be a better buy. It should come out around 10-15% slower for around $100, or so, less. However, if you run across a new 1080 ti for $650 or less then I'd say it makes the 1080 ti a better buy.
I don't know about situation in America but in EU supply of 1080ti is almost done and they are back to slightly above MSRP prices so if 2070 cheaper SKUs will be available they will be very attractive.
 

Flexion

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I think you might be surprised. They are simply pricing many out of the hobby.
Yeah after the hype dies down and availability increases prices may go down if the tariff BS doesn't hit too hard. PC gaming was always kinda pricey in comparison to console/mobile, but you get what you pay for. Sometimes when folks just can't hang with PCMR anymore, they just gotta descend to the console peasant race. XD
 

Teenyman45

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Even Tom's Hardware gave the 2070 a low for them 3.5 / 5 because of the extreme over-pricing on the video card and lack of Turing availability.
 

Stoly

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From what I've read, the 2070 lies where I expeqted performance wise

I think nvidia marketing dropped the ball big time.

The cost would be a non issue if the cards were named RTX 2080, 2090 and 2090TI. That way RTX would be the main differentiator with only a slight bump in performance
 
D

Deleted member 93354

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Bit higher performance, bit higher price, loaded with new technology... How is that not value?

And for those repeating old information with respect to ray-tracing: we have examples of it struggling at 1080p and running well at 4k, from the same event that you are 'remembering'. We are very likely to see decent performance and the ability to tune that performance with respect to quality as needed, which the same devs have also said.

You may go back to bitching about NDAs.
Bit higher performance, a lot more price. It doesn't scale linearly on price to performance chart. The price to performance ratio is increasing. And that's bad.
 

[Spectre]

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Yes.

I'm posting here because there are multiple things to discuss. One of them is the general topic of NDAs.

You're totally mixing up the timing and the actors. There is no point in a reviewer signing an NVIDIA's NDA today (once boards are leaked). There was a point (getting hardware, drivers, support, etc.) to signing it previously. There especially is a point (get a quantity at launch) to MSI's resellers signing it previously.

A reviewer can choose to not sign the NDA and try to sneak equal privileges. But it is a risk, and relies on other people breaking contracts.

You really can't say that nothing was offered for these NDAs. I can totally agree that what is offered may not be worth it -- power to the people and journalists that resist these temptations. But these NDAs do offer something significant in return for towing the line.
Uh, no I didnt mix up timing and actors. The timing and actors just don't fit your narrative.

I'll just leave something a lawyer of mine once told me. If someone is handing you a contract they aren't doing the contract as a favor to YOU. If the they were doing the contract as a favor to you then you would be handing the contract to them.
 
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