MSI AM4 pron

Discussion in 'AMD Processors' started by cageymaru, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Peppercorn

    Peppercorn Limp Gawd

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  2. Shintai

    Shintai 2[H]4U

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    The article got some errors.

    But to compare MSI got 106 LGA1151 boards. A lot of the boards are actually the same with tiny extras.

    They will need 6 boards just to use all the AM4 chipsets once.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  3. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Well, I hope at least one of them is a good workstation board, a spartan X370 board with very little in the way of on-board devices, instead repurposing the chipset PCIe lanes for added expansion. A basic subtle color scheme, and none of those ridiculous non-functional decorative covers and heatsinks would be nice too.

    Essentially, cut out all the junk (fancy audio, extra SATA ports, the two in the SoC are more than enough, Killer NIC's etc.) to keep down the added costs for stuff I don't need. Give me one or two on board INTEL gigabit NIC's (heck, or even better, two on board Intel NIC's, one gigabit, and one 10GBase-T)

    Recipe for the PERFECT function over form motherboard:
    • SSI CEB or eATX form factor
    • basic black, dark green or dark blue color of board. Only functional heatsinks/shrouds, and keep them pedestrian looking. Black anodized both looks nice and subtle, and is the most effective for heat transfer. No artwork on the board. Everything that adds to the cost should add function, not appearance.
    • Integrate USB 3.1, but don't go nuts. No one needs eleventy billion USB ports, and if they do, let them buy hubs, or decide so themselves by getting PCIe expansion cards. Headers for 4 USB ports on the front panel, and maybe an additional 6 ports on the back I/O panel is plenty
    • Use the two built in Sata controllers in the SoC, but don't add any more than that. Don't add cost if it's not needed. Most of these will have one m.2 SSD attached to them, and nothing else. People who want more can use an expansion card with the massive number of PCIe slots you'll be giving us :p
    • Include a basic Realtek audio chip, but don't waste money on fancy amps or better audio chips. Those of us who care about audio will be using external DAC's and amp's anyway, so fancy on board shit is just wasted. That, and every GPU on the market these days includes audio as well... If possible, make it switchable. Allow the PCIe lane used by on board audio to be available to a PCIe slot if on board audio is disabled in bios.
    • As far as NIC's go, please whatever you do stay away from Realtek (Or Killer). Put one or two Intel gigabit NIC's on there, or better yet, one Intel Gigabit NIC and one Intel 10G BaseT NIC. If possible make these switchable too, like the audio above, such that the lanes they use can be otherwise utilized if disabled in BIOS.
    • In the end, give us as many PCIe lanes as possible routed to actual PCIe slots, and for the love of god, make all of those slots x16, even if they aren't x16 electrically, so we can fit whatever boards we want in them.
    • Lose the VGA/DVI/HDMI/DP ports on the I/O Shield. We're not going to use this motherboard for APU's anyway
    • Good overclocking features are a must.
    • Good fully customizeable fan control. Make all fan headers 4 pin with full PWM control, and include fully custom fan profiles in BIOS.. I mean, fully custom like 20% PWM at this temp, 40% PWM at this temp, etc. with 10+ points per fan header, and a little chart. Come on guys, UEFI BIOS:es are graphical now. Take advantage of that for something useful!
    • Oh, and for the love of god, please make the graphical POST splash screen professional looking! I don't need to look at angry jet planes, "MILITARY GRADE" etc. etc. every time my machine POST's. I'm not a hormone raging 13 year old. Make it nice, subtle and professional looking.

    Now, someone, please run off and make me this perfect motherboard!
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  4. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    > Now, someone, please run off and make me this perfect motherboard!

    I see where you are going with that wish list, and I agree for the most part
    because I don't do any gaming -- none.

    I also host a database in a ramdisk, and the production benefits are enormous.

    The good news is that a RAID-0 of high-performance NVMe SSDS,
    like the Samsung 960 Pro M.2 models, can operate at raw speeds
    comparable to DDR3-1600 DRAM.

    If I were to modify your wish list for my own peculiar needs and wants,
    I would much prefer to design an expandable "bare bones" workstation that:

    (a) has no SATA-Express whatsoever (let's be honest: it's DOA);

    (b) minimizes the number of 6G SATA-III ports
    (because expansion cards are cheap and plentiful);

    (c) expands upstream bandwidth to support
    at least 4 full-speed NVMe SSDs with U.2 ports
    (because the Syba 2.5" M.2 to U.2 enclosure is cheap
    and available now);

    (d) supports all modern RAID modes on
    those 4 x U.2 ports;

    (e) all modern RAID modes in (d)
    must be bootable, because I want the
    OS and all application software to
    reside on a fast RAID array;

    (f) is built by a Tier 1 motherboard manufacturer
    with agreements to OEM a quality NVMe RAID controller
    with x16 edge connector compatible with PCIe 3.0 specs,
    and commitments to support PCIe 4.0 specs when they
    become the industry standard;

    (g) the NVMe RAID controller in (f) should support
    variable clock speeds, to encourage "bleeding edge"
    experimentation aka "overclocking data storage subsystems"
    (witness the history of CPU and DRAM overclocking);

    (h) similarly, those OEM agreements would also include
    experimental SSDs with 16 GHz clocks and jumbo frames,
    in anticipation of PCIe 4.0 chipsets e.g. Intel's Optane
    would be a good candidate for these experimental SSDs;

    (i) the published standards for SATA, SAS and NVMe
    should be enhanced to accommodate experimental overclocking,
    at a minimum to "synchronize" storage subsystems with chipsets.
     
  5. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Does anyone know how the M.2 and U.2 PCIe lanes work?

    I mean, I know it is too early to know for these unlaunched boards, but how do they typically work for existing boards, like the Z170's?

    Here's where I am going with this:

    So this MSI board - as an example - has 2x m.2 ports and 1x u.2 port, each using 4 PCie lanes.

    What happens when these slots are unused? Are they typically statically linked, or can the lanes - if not in use - be re-routed to PCIe slots?

    Just like on my Asus P9X79 WS, where if I insert a card in slot two, it suddenly becomes an 8x slot, and slot 1 goes from a 16x slot to an 8x slot, could there be PCIe slots that share lanes with m.2 slots or u.2 ports?

    Reason I'm asking is, I currently use a PCIe 400GB Intel SSD750. It is more than fast enough and more than large enough for me, but if Zen winds up being worth buying, it's relatively limited number of PCIe lanes has me wondering if I'd be better off ditching the Intel PCIe SSD in favor of an M.2 drive, if that will allow me to save PCIe lanes.
     
  6. Shintai

    Shintai 2[H]4U

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    You cant "double use" the lanes. You can at best just share the lanes via a PLX chip.

    Chipsets you can think of as a PLX chip too. The lanes the chipset provides ends up in a x4 PCIe 3.0 interface to the CPU.

    You can not get full speed on the 750 if its attached to the X370 chipset in any way because the chipset only provides PCIe 2.0. It needs to be attached to the CPU lanes.
     
  7. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Are you sure you can't do the same thing with those as you can with regular lanes going to PCIe slots?

    In other words, you could have a PCIe slot on the motherboard that is 8x if no m.2 ports are populated, 4x of one m.2 slot is populated, and 0x if both m.2 slots are populated, just like my motherboard has a 16x slot that becomes an 8x slot of a nearby slot is populated?

    Seeing that m.2 slots are really just PCIe slots electrically in a different shape, I would think this would be very possible.

    Now, if anyone has done this yet, is a completely different question.
     
  8. Shintai

    Shintai 2[H]4U

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    It requires split functionality and it can only be done with predetermined multipliers. For example the AM4/LGA1151 CPUs can only do 1x16 or 2x8. You are not going to get something like 8x for graphics and 2x4 for M.2.

    The solution to your issue is PLX chips.
     
  9. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Hmm. Looks like I might be shopping for an m.2 drive as well then...

    Between needing 64GB of DDR4 RAM, an m2 drive a motherboard and a CPU, this is shaping up to be an expensive upgrade.

    It had better be worth it, or I guess I'll just have to pass.
     
  10. Shintai

    Shintai 2[H]4U

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    Your issue is you are trying to fit workstation requirements into the mainstream platform. High memory amount, high I/O connectivity etc. Maybe what you need is Skylake-X if you are actually going to upgrade or the SP3 Zen server socket platform.
     
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  11. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Yeah, you are probably right, it's just that this being an 8c/16t part, it's just weird that it is in the mainstream segment.

    Downside with the server parts though, is they often don't have motherboards with overclocking support, and server CPU's are typically clocked way lower and cost way more than mainstream parts.
     
  12. Shintai

    Shintai 2[H]4U

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    Well you have to wait anyway and see how it performs in benchmarks. 8c/16t as such doesn't mean anything in itself. Naples loses vs Skylake-EP using much more cores. AMDs own statement there is 32 cores is close to 18 cores.
     
  13. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Going back to this for a moment.

    How come I can buy passive risers that will split one x16 slot into 4 x4 slots?

    I guess based on stuff like this, I got the impression that PCIe lanes are very configurable out of the box.

    Is it that it is much easier to split a slot than to join two of them?
     
  14. Shintai

    Shintai 2[H]4U

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    Could you link it?

    Usually its something like this for miners and its all PLX based.
    http://amfeltec.com/splitters-gpu-oriented/?view=list
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Hmm. My bad I guess. I had always thought these things to be completely passive, judging by how barren the boards of many I have seen are, but I guess some form of.microcontroller must always be needed for the two control pins..


    I'm learning a lot from this conversation. Thanks.
     
  16. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    The other experts here will please correct me, if I am wrong about this:

    but, it's my understanding that the PCI-Express standard allows
    for only one device per PCIe expansion slot.

    As such, a PLX-type switch is necessary to support multiple devices
    on a single PCIe expansion slot e.g. SATA RAID and non-RAID controllers
    with x8 edge connectors have been doing this for a long time.

    What's relatively new in the industry is a variety of
    NVMe expansion cards that support multiple NVMe devices e.g.
    see our WANT AD (which is a little dated now):

    http://supremelaw.org/systems/nvme/want.ad.htm


    > How come I can buy passive risers that will split one x16 slot into 4 x4 slots?

    The following was announced by Highpoint, but ever since then I have
    not been able to locate any reviews:
    http://highpoint-tech.com/PDF/RR3800/RocketRAID_3840A_PR_16_08_09.pdf

    The "Squid" was running pretty hot before they added a cooling fan:
    https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/...e-3-0-x16-Carrier-Board-for-4x-M-2-SSDs-11837
    (latter is not a RAID controller, however)


    And, HP, Dell and Kingston have all released initial versions of x16 controllers
    that support 4 x M.2 devices, but these are also NOT RAID controllers:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here's an example of a giant PLX switch:

    [​IMG]
     
  17. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Search for PCIe bifurcation.
     
  18. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    > Is it that it is much easier to split a slot than to join two of them?

    I believe that modern x8 RAID controllers can be installed in multiples
    e.g. at Newegg, there is a Customer review which describes how
    to get two Highpoint RocketRAID 2720SGL RAID controllers
    to work in tandem. For my research purposes, that is one way
    to achieve x16 bandwidth, albeit with PCIe 2.0 speeds:

    2 @ x8 = x16 @ 5 GHz / 10 bits per byte = 8.0 GB/second MAX HEADROOM

    The objective of such a setup is to enable a single RAID array
    that spans both controllers.

    Is that what you meant by "join two of them"?

    EDIT:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIABZ04RM8249&Tpk=9SIABZ04RM8249

    James T. writes:

    "Cons: The bad news is that you get exactly what you see in the picture here- Two HighPoint 2720SGL raid cards that normally cost $160 each. The only difference between purchasing this or purchasing two separate 2720SGL's is that this is $100 more. This is a good option if you have an extra $100 that you are looking to throw away. LOL

    "Other Thoughts: The description for this product claims that this kit will allow you to run both of these 2720SGL's in the same server and combine all 16 ports to create a single Raid array. What they don't tell you is you can set this same Raid array up even if you purchase these cards separatly. We've been doing this same thing for several years in our other storage servers, which also run two independant cards each. When we opened this package and dumped it out, we saw two 2720 retail boxes taped together and a fuzzy, hard to read photo copied sheet of paper that showed how to plug both cards into our computer."
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  19. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    I think someone was discussing PCIE lanes in the thread. Anyways this video says 24 lanes.

     
  20. Dew

    Dew 2[H]4U

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    Specifically it is 24 Lanes, 16x dedicated for GPU, 4x for NVMe, 4x for Chipset.

    Now, does that mean that we will see boards with 2x8 (16 physical, 8 electrical), or 1x8 + 2x4 CPU lanes that can be repurposed for storage/networking? I would assume so.

    Considering PCIE3 is 8Gbps/lane that only gives 32Gbps (~3.8GB/sec real world) for the entire chipset.

    A 10GBe NIC is going to want 2 lanes to operate at full speed.

    Gosh, looking at what a mess this can be, I see why a PLX chip might be a popular option. Stack 32 lanes (4x 8 lane electrical) of physical slots into a shared 8 lane bus and call it a day. Let the end user figure out the best division of resources.

    Now if only bifurcation was a standard thing across all chipsets...
     
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  21. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Hmm. Are there any good m.2 slot to PCIe slot flexible risers? Maybe one can use one of the m.2 slots for a 10GBe card.
     
  22. Dew

    Dew 2[H]4U

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    Nope.
    There is one, but it is rated for PCIe 1 (maybe it can do 2, I dunno), and $150. http://www.hwtools.net/ExtenderBoard/P14S-P14F.html

    Sooo, worthless.
     
  23. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    > 4x for NVMe

    And, I saw 2 x M.2 ports on that Titanium motherboard (see video above).

    So, 2 x M.2 slots must share x4 PCIe 3.0 lanes??

    Sounds like the same upstream bandwidth ceiling as Intel's DMI 3.0 link
    and I mean EXACTLY THE SAME!

    Therefore, expect no benefit from a RAID-0 array of 2 very fast NVMe M.2 SSDs
    like the Samsung 960 Pro.

    Keep going: what happens if I install an NVMe RAID controller
    with x16 edge connector in the slot normally reserved for an x16 GPU?

    Will it be allocated all x16 lanes, electrically speaking?

    Do Ryzen CPUs have on-chip video? I thought I saw 2 integrated video ports
    on the rear I/O panel of that Titanium motherboard.

    Stop at 1:06 / 3:16 in the "Top 5 Features" video above.

    Frankly, I'm disappointed so far, but I'll wait until we know more
    about these AM4 chipsets.


    p.s. That Titanium might work well as a "thin client"
    that archives large data sets on a NAS, but
    if it can't support a modern NVMe RAID controller
    with x16 edge connector at full speed, I think I'll pass
    on this generation of AM4 motherboards.


    EDIT: I want to assemble four of these in a RAID-0 array:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G55Z6985&Tpk=9SIA24G55Z6985

    ... housed in four of these Syba 2.5" M.2 to U.2 enclosures:

    http://www.sybausa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=884&search=SY-ADA40112
    (they come with a nice thermal pad that transfers heat from the SSD to the enclosure housing)

    ... wired with four U.2 cables like this one:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAA6W3YY8665&Tpk=9SIAA6W3YY8665
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  24. Dew

    Dew 2[H]4U

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    Looking at that board, I'm guessing we are looking at 2x8 (16 slot) PCIe off the CPU, the 3 x1 slots off the chipset, the bottom x16 is probably an x1 or x4, also off the chipset. The board may have intelligent switching for the 2x8 and make it 1x16 if you only have one card installed. You could then install a low-end GPU in the bottom x16 slot.

    Either way, if you were looking at all that, I'm not quite sure what the point would be in having ~9GByte/sec local reads with limited network IO. Better to sacrifice PCIe x16 down to x8 so you can put a 40Gbe NIC in there. You'll still hit nearly the same 9GB/sec.

    Ryzen, no, AFAIK. Only the forthcoming AM4 APUs will have IGPs. So those ports will be dead unless you stick an APU in there.
     
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  25. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    There is very little benefit in using RAID to stripe multiple SSD's anyway, they are already massively paralellized internally anyway.

    Going from a hard drive to any SSD is a huge improvement. Going from a slow SSD to a faster one is marginal.

    When I moved from my sata Samsung 850 Pro to a PCIe Intel 750, while the 750 certainly scores higher in drive bench tests, actual practical performance difference (boot times, load times, system responsiveness, etc) have been undetectably small.

    Besides, striping drives gains you sequential performance at the cost of seek times. Seek times are the huge reason why SSD's are such a huge improvement.

    If you have an odd workload where sequential speeds are unusually important to you, I guess striping makes sense, but for most workloads you are just giving up reliability for no benefit at all.
     
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  26. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    No they don't have a GPU. Remember Bristol Ridge and future APUs will have a GPU.
     
  27. JustReason

    JustReason [H]ard|Gawd

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    for even more clarity: A unified platform, no AM3 and FM2 but a single chipset to house both.
     
  28. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    > There is very little benefit in using RAID to stripe multiple SSD's anyway

    ???

    ATTO with 4 x Samsung 840 Pro in RAID-0, PCIe 2.0 chipset, 2720SGL controller:

    [​IMG]


    I honestly don't understand: I constantly read about this CPU speed difference and
    that CPU speed difference (5%, 10% etc.), but a C: partition that operates almost FOUR TIMES
    faster than a single SSD has "very little benefit".

    Believe me when I say that routine maintenance tasks, like writing a drive image,
    are noticeably -- and measurably -- faster. Then, there is a separate task
    to read that entire drive image, to verify its integrity. And, then another read
    while writing a backup archive copy of same.

    I also notice, and enjoy, all the other tasks which are much faster
    e.g. navigating a large NTFS database with lots of discrete filenames.

    And, if a RAID-0 member fails, it must be replaced and the data restored:
    this is the same for a JBOD drive that fails: it must be replaced, and the data restored --
    "same difference" (we used to say, in grad school).

    In point of fact, none of our SSDs has failed to date, and most of them
    are members of RAID-0 arrays.
     
  29. Dew

    Dew 2[H]4U

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    So you have a rather enterprisey use case, not a consumer/prosumer use case.

    It is still unclear from your description what you are looking for as far as this machine goes. Do you want local storage IO and not care about network IO? Do you want GPU IO as well?

    If we are talking about the consumer/prosumer use case, going from 500MB/sec to 5GB/sec is not going to make much of a difference unless you are slinging around large files quite often, and is going to make just about zero difference in gaming.
     
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  30. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Well, as I was saying, you can get great benchmark numbers, but they rarely if ever result in improvements in practical use. Your boot times, load times and system responsiveness are going to be almost exactly the same. Only time you'll ever notice is with large sequential transfers to another fast source. (RAMdisk?)
     
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  31. Namx01

    Namx01 n00bie

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  32. dook43

    dook43 2[H]4U

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    That's been made uncomfortably clear. Nobody else on this forum cares about running SQL databases in RAMdisks and wanting to move that down to RAID M.2.

    And anyone that does is certainly not purchasing AMD Ryzen at launch. What we have here is a enterprise customer on a consumer budget.
     
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  33. os2wiz

    os2wiz Limp Gawd

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    A 6 core 12 thread chip is happening whether you see it or not,
     
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  34. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    It's a sad day when the scientific method gets squashed
    by corporate propaganda and marketing hype.

    If they won't manufacture what we wish to purchase,
    then we won't be spending money on what we don't want.

    Without having a "Titanium" in hand, the only way
    to learn whether its video ports will function
    was to ask that question (the easy way)
    or purchase one and find out the hard way.

    Beware of allowing theories to "morph" into facts :)
     
  35. Nobu

    Nobu Gawd

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    Why wouldn't they function? I'm sure they'll work fine, with an APU. Ryzen is a CPU, with no graphics capabilities, I'm 99% certain (only 1% uncertain because there is a remote possibility that they decided to turn it into an APU without saying anything). There will be APUs released later (as had been said by AMD) for the same socket. I'm not sure of chipset compatibility, but I think they should work with CPUs and APUs.
     
  36. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    Please correct me, if I am not correct about this:

    the comments above imply that these motherboards
    have video ports at the rear I/O panel e.g. "Titanium", but
    there are no graphics chips integrated onto those motherboards.

    Video support must come from an add-on GPU,
    or from an AMD APU that should be released later.

    Ryden is a CPU withOUT on-chip graphics.

    Do I understand this correctly?
     
  37. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    There are current Bristol Ridge AM4 CPUs that should function with the video ports. Next year there will be Zen based APUs that will use the video ports as well. The Zen parts released in Q1 will not use the video.
     
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  38. MRFSYS

    MRFSYS Limp Gawd

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    Many thanks for the clarification!

    EDIT: AMD's Pro A12-9800 APU specs:
    http://products.amd.com/en-us/searc...for-Desktops/7th-Gen-AMD-PRO-A12-9800-APU/216

    Anandtech predicts OEMs now, DIY later e.g. after Zen launches:
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/10705...and-am4-analysis-a12-9800-b350-a320-chipset/6
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  39. WhoBeDaPlaya

    WhoBeDaPlaya [H]ard|Gawd

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    A few years back, some folks at work were crowing about these new-fangled mechanical keyboards.
    I brought in the OG and shut 'em up :)

    [​IMG]

    Mint condition with the original box, except the rubber on the cable has started to disintegrate :(
    Bought it way back when for use with an IBM Thinkpad 760ED when it launched.
     
  40. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] [H]ard|News Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,144
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    Nice! A twin to mine!

    I'm impressed your keycaps are still good after all that time!

    I've often thought about bringing a buckling spring keyboard to work, but I worry that I will annoy my colleagues, since we work in an open office environment. I don't even have cubicle walls :p
     
    WhoBeDaPlaya likes this.