MS has abandoned Drive Extender for Vail

[ghost6303]

When we first started designing Windows Home Sever code name “Vail” one of our initial focuses was to continue to provide support for multiple internal and external hard drives. Drive Extender provided the ability to take the small hard drives many small businesses and households may have acquired, and pool them together in a simple volume. During our current testing period for our SBS 2011 Essentials and Windows Home Server code name “Vail” products, we have received feedback from partners and customers about how they use storage today and how they plan to use it moving forward. Today large hard drives of over 1TB are reasonably priced, and freely available. We are also seeing further expansion of hard drive sizes at a fast rate, where 2Tb drives and more are becoming easy accessible to small businesses.

When weighing up the future direction storage in the consumer and SMB market, the team felt the Drive Extender technology was not meeting our customer needs. Customers also told us that they wanted easier access to data stored on Drive Extender drives so they are able to view these files outside of Drive Extender. Therefore, moving forward we have decided to remove the Drive Extender technology from Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” (and Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials and Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 Essentials) which are currently in beta.

While this removes the integrated ability for storage pooling of multiple hard drives and automated data duplication, we are continuing to work closely with our OEM partners to implement storage management and protection using industry standard RAID solutions, as well as other software solutions. This will provide customers greater choice as well as a seamless experience that will meet their storage needs. Customers will also have access to the in-built storage solutions Windows Server 2008 R2 provides for data protection, including software RAID support. We are also still delivering core features such as automated Server and PC backup, easy sharing of folders and files, Remote Web Access and simplified management without any expected changes.

Target product availability is still H1 2011, and we expect to deliver a new beta without drive extender for Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” and Small Business Server 2011 Essentials early in the New Year.

Link.

 

[Old Hippie]

MS just seriously pissed off some of it's most loyal customers and evangilists...... Terrible move MS.

WHS has always been a MS stepchild and I doubt makes them much money.

It always felt like it was a "cobbled together" project that someone worked on in their spare time and a higher-up pushed it to the forefront as his "baby".

It's pretty obvious that they didn't R&D WHS to the extent of a major OS and the lack of official support has been spotty.

I wasn't going to move to Vail because it left NTFS behind and that was my compelling reason to use WHS.

What's wrong with Vail going 64bit but still use the "old" WHS drive extender?

Or am I making things too simple and it can't be done with 64bit?

 

[jebo_4jc]

FWIW there's a bug tracker on MS Connect that people are using to voice their disapproval.

https://connect.microsoft.com/Windo...add-drive-extender-back-to-vail?wa=wsignin1.0

Will it do anything to change MS' mind? Highly unlikely.

Is it an official tally of how many of us are pissed about this move? Yep.

Up to 1,400 votes as I type this.

 

[[LYL]Homer]

Anand just put an article up: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4030/windows-home-server-v2-vail-drive-extender-v2-dismissed

 

[Old Hippie]

Up to 1,400 votes as I type this

.
Add at least two zeros and you may cause a blip on their radar.

 

[jebo_4jc]

.
Add at least two zeros and you may cause a blip on their radar.

you may be right. maybe we can add one zero

That question depends on how big the WHS market is to begin with. I'm honestly not sure.

 

[[LYL]Homer]

MS just seriously pissed off some of it's most loyal customers and evangilists...... Terrible move MS.

I feel like selling off all my pc crap and buy all Macs, if they can do this with Vail what is the real future of MCE?

Man, I have to completely rethink my home media setup.

Dammit MS!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it's frustrating. But put all your eggs in Steve Jobs' basket? ROFL

 

[Chimel]

The argument that hard drives are now bigger and DE to consolidate smaller disks is not necessary anymore is laughable: A 42GB ripped BD is 6 times bigger than a 7GB DVD, and that's exactly the same proportion for the new 3TB disks that are starting to appear, compared to the 500GB disks at the time of WHS v1. So we haven't exactly gained anything with the bigger disks in term of storage, they just keep up with the new technologies.

And if you take the 1TB disk mentioned by MS, you can fit only 24 ripped BD on it. Hell, I can barely fit my music on a 1TB disk, with no extra space for even one ripped BD.
So DE was just as necessary for v2 than for v1, MS is just shooting at themselves, taking down their OEM partners with them. It won't encourage beta testers either.

 

[Old Hippie]

you may be right. maybe we can add one zero

That question depends on how big the WHS market is to begin with. I'm honestly not sure.

WHS has always had a limited consumer base and many don't care/want to move to a 64bit system that isn't even compatable with WHS version 1..... and that's the people that built their own.

The consumer that purchased a premade system weren't even thinking about improving/upgrading to Vail.

Vail eliminated many usefull features for the novice server user (and that was the origional intent of WHS) and only the geekiest even cared about what was happening "behind the scene".

To me this is much ado about nothing and although I always encourage everyone to speak their mind I seriously doubt it's gonna make a difference.

 

[Old Hippie]

So DE was just as necessary for v2 than for v1, MS is just shooting at themselves, taking down their OEM partners with them.

If that's the case, why not stay with the origional WHS?

 

[jebo_4jc]

I agree that it's not likely to make a difference. But IMO MS should hear us voice our displeasure.

The thing is, if there is a low adoption rate for Vail to begin with, 1,575 people is a non-insignificant percentage.

 

[Old Hippie]

The thing is, if there is a low adoption rate for Vail to begin with, 1,575 people is a non-insignificant percentage.

OK...whatever you think.

 

[Chimel]

If that's the case, why not stay with the origional WHS?

Exactly. It would have been nice to use something more recent than the XP UI, though.
But frankly I already gave up on Vail some time ago, because of the block-based DE and limited number of disks supported.

 

[jebo_4jc]

I need 64 bit support for extra RAM for other processes I run on the WHS. I also use dual CPUs though so that was going to be a problem.

I am also excited to see what comes of the media streaming functionality. I can picture a Windows Mobile 7 app for streaming videos, pics, and music from a Vail server.

 

[Archer75]

Exactly. It would have been nice to use something more recent than the XP UI, though.
But frankly I already gave up on Vail some time ago, because of the block-based DE and limited number of disks supported.

The only limited number was a beta restriction, not a restriction of the actual OS. The most recent limit was 16 drives and that was to be removed upon release. It wasn't a physical limit, you could have added more, but they ran into issues above that and for the time being recommended you keep the number of discs under that.

 

[Old Hippie]

I need 64 bit support for extra RAM for other processes I run on the WHS. I also use dual CPUs though so that was going to be a problem.

Like a few here, you aren't the target WHS consumer and your requirements are not why it was developed.

 

[nitrobass24]

I need 64 bit support for extra RAM for other processes I run on the WHS. I also use dual CPUs though so that was going to be a problem.

I am also excited to see what comes of the media streaming functionality. I can picture a Windows Mobile 7 app for streaming videos, pics, and music from a Vail server.

Just run WHS in a VM on Server08 w/ Hyper-v

 

[Old Hippie]

It wasn't a physical limit, you could have added more, but they ran into issues above that and for the time being recommended you keep the number of discs under that.

Probably because of DE problems.

Just looks to me they're not gonna pour any more resources into Vail because the market is limited and they won't make any money on it.

It's now pretty much of a moot point...

Effective immediately, Microsoft is dropping Drive Extender from all of these second-generation WHS operating systems, and instead will be releasing these OSes without a native storage pool/duplication feature.

I doubt they'll be a new WHS without somekinda storage system...for now I'm considering Vail "dead in the water".

 

[S-F]

The need to move from WHS V1 is that it doesn't support 4K sector drives or drives over 2 TB.

 

[No1451]

The need to move from WHS V1 is that it doesn't support 4K sector drives or drives over 2 TB.

Bingo. I'm starting my research now into other alternatives, it looks like FreeNAS and ZFS are my best bet, though still more complicated than I would like

 

[Old Hippie]

The need to move from WHS V1 is that it doesn't support 4K sector drives or drives over 2 TB.

I'll take that limitation over Vails 64bit only and new file system any day of the week.

 

[S-F]

I'll take that limitation over Vails 64bit only and new file system any day of the week.

Why does the 64 bitness bother you? Are you not using a 64 bit CPU? How long has it been since all processors were 64 bit?

 

[Old Hippie]

Why does the 64 bitness bother you? Are you not using a 64 bit CPU? How long has it been since all processors were 64 bit?

I'm running 64bit on my main machine and I have nothing against it.

It's not the 64bit OS but reinstalling the whole server and all it contains is a major hassle.

Who knows how many users' systems aren't 64bit compatable.

How many prebuilt systems are 64bit compatable?

 

[jebo_4jc]

MS announced the 64 bit requirement years ago, and every OEM WHS has been 64 bit since roughly that time.

I applaud the progress in that arena. Arguing for legacy support just makes you sound like a stick in the mud.

 

[Old Hippie]

Arguing for legacy support just makes you sound like a stick in the mud.

You have me mistaken for someone else....I'm not asking/arguing for anything.

I was never going to Vail and couldn't care less about it.

I was asked the reason why I didn't like Vail and I responded.

My origional question was "what will be the new storage system" and soo far I see the answer is "there won't be any".

 

[Old Hippie]

and every OEM WHS has been 64 bit since roughly that time.

You mean that the WHS install disk I have is 64bit?

Are you saying that all the prebuilt WHS systems are 64bit?

You mean 64bit capable?

 

[jebo_4jc]

no. I'm saying every OEM WHS sold in the past 24 months or so has a 64-bit compatible CPU.

 

[PGHammer]

You have me mistaken for someone else....I'm not asking/arguing for anything.

I was never going to Vail and couldn't care less about it.

I was asked the reason why I didn't like Vail and I responded.

My origional question was "what will be the new storage system" and soo far I see the answer is "there won't be any".

Considering that WHSv2 (like v1) is primarily targeted at OEMs (while some sales will go to the BYOHS crowd, it's not the target market), there's actually a very good reason why this feature is being removed from WHS (and I'm surprised that none of the naysayers themselves has considered it) - it causes too much overlap with the base Server 2008 R2 product. The biggest complaint about this *feature* is that it's not as reliable as a real server (and specifically, 2008 R2 itself) despite the common codebase.

In short, Microsoft actually listened.

They are saying "So you'd rather deploy 2008 R2 instead to get feature X? Okay."

And now those that complained are complaining that Microsoft actually listened?

Also, consider that the base 2008 R2 product is, first and foremost, not an application server, but a *file server*. Microsoft does NOT want businesses (even small businesses) taking the cheap way out and deploying WHS as a small-business file server (and then griping about underperformance).

 

[Old Hippie]

no. I'm saying every OEM WHS sold in the past 24 months or so has a 64-bit compatible CPU.

I can accept that but I'm not gonna bother to check.

I seriously doubt that more than a few with prebuilt systems would upgrade to Vail but it's the reinstall procedure that would create a major hassle if they did..

The reinstall and non-NTFS were show stoppers for many of us.

 

[Old Hippie]

Considering that WHSv2 (like v1) is primarily targeted at OEMs (while some sales will go to the BYOHS crowd, it's not the target market), there's actually a very good reason why this feature is being removed from WHS (and I'm surprised that none of the naysayers themselves has considered it) - it causes too much overlap with the base Server 2008 R2 product. The biggest complaint about this *feature* is that it's not as reliable as a real server (and specifically, 2008 R2 itself) despite the common codebase.

In short, Microsoft actually listened.

They are saying "So you'd rather deploy 2008 R2 instead to get feature X? Okay."

And now those that complained are complaining that Microsoft actually listened?

Also, consider that the base 2008 R2 product is, first and foremost, not an application server, but a *file server*. Microsoft does NOT want businesses (even small businesses) taking the cheap way out and deploying WHS as a small-business file server (and then griping about underperformance).

That sounds like a very plausible explanation.

 

[Archer75]

The need to move from WHS V1 is that it doesn't support 4K sector drives or drives over 2 TB.

support for 4k sectors is merely a jumper. I have 3 advanced format drives in my WHS v1.

MS announced the 64 bit requirement years ago, and every OEM WHS has been 64 bit since roughly that time.

Not true. Some of the early OEM machines do not have x64 cpu's. Most do now and have for awhile, but not all. Not that I really care.

 

[S-F]

support for 4k sectors is merely a jumper. I have 3 advanced format drives in my WHS v1.

Yes there are ways around it. The jumper trick doesn't work for the Samsung F4's BTW and this will also probably be the case with many drives in the future. And there is no jumper to make 3 + TB drives work.

 

[MrCrispy]

I'm not surprised at all. Vail was a solution to a problem no one had - 'increased reliability'. Which it turns out they weren't able to solve anyway. The only reason for DEv2 was the increased security through CRC, block level checks etc, and in the end they admit their implementation wasn't up to it.

""Drive Extender was a neat feature, but the implementation was off, and we discovered some application compatibility and disk tool problems related to its ability to correct data errors on the fly," Microsoft general manager Kevin Kean told me. "We don't want to give customers problems; we want to give them solutions. So ultimately, we decided that we needed to cut out Drive Extender. Removing Drive Extender will make file shares easy, and it's possible to accomplish most of its features otherwise. For example, you use the server's centralized backup or even RAID as an alternative to data duplication."

Serves them right for not listening to all the complaints and outrage. But instead of fixing DEv1 to run on the 2008 codebase, and modernizing the rest of the OS, they decided to cancel it. Typical MS hubris.

 

[Old Hippie]

Vail was a solution to a problem no one had - 'increased reliability'.

I guess you didn't have the problems with WHS like I did.

My WHS system has been the least reliable computer component I've ever had.

I'm not gonna bother with the details but I'm not the only one that's been highly disappointed with this MS product.

 

[MrCrispy]

I guess you didn't have the problems with WHS like I did.

My WHS system has been the least reliable computer component I've ever had.

I'm not gonna bother with the details but I'm not the only one that's been highly disappointed with this MS product.

I admit I am one of the lucky ones. I only installed WHS after PP2 and I've read the bug reports about data loss, failed backups etc, but luckily I was not affected.

Dev1 was essentially a hack, so the team had good intentions when they tried to rearchitect it. But in doing so they changed the scope of it completely and I guess they realized their mistake. I still believe the concepts in WHS v1 are very good and need to be implemented ina modern OS, and they can do it if they want to.

 

[Archer75]

Yes there are ways around it. The jumper trick doesn't work for the Samsung F4's BTW and this will also probably be the case with many drives in the future. And there is no jumper to make 3 + TB drives work.

True, though WD includes a PCI Express card with sata ports that allows those 3tb drives to work.

 

[HardOCP News]

Those of you that are upset about losing the drive extender feature from Windows Home Server will no doubt want to read this. Thanks to everyone that sent this one in.

When weighing up the future direction of storage in the consumer and SMB market, the team felt the Drive Extender technology was not meeting our customer needs. Therefore, moving forward we have decided to remove the Drive Extender technology from Windows Home Server Code Name “Vail” (and Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials and Windows Storage Server 2008 R2 Essentials) which are currently in beta.

 

[MaxBurn]

I like this move, would much rather go with the proven softRAID solution.

 

[haxxorboi]

Alright, so Vail is essentially DOA then for the majority of us right?

I'm running WHSv2 and honestly could use the 3TB drives soon. What are the options?

OS:
Vail (probably not anymore)
V2 (still viable, but can't use large drives)
Server 2008 (good option but lose some WHS remote features)
UnRaid (not too familiar with this)

DE Replacement:
Stick with V2 DE (still doesn't allow larger drives)
RAID5/6 (doesn't allow for different drive types)
FlexRAID (not too familiar with this)

Any additions or pro/cons for these

 

[Old Hippie]

Those of you that are upset about losing the drive extender feature from Windows Home Server will no doubt want to read this. Thanks to everyone that sent this one in.

Ahhh...isn't that what we're talking about. ?