MS and Windows 8 Strategy

Monkey God said:
Its not their fault, it's only because people are scared of change.
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"If it ain't broke, don't fix it," applies here I think. Change isn't always for the better, but far more often for the worst.

Disclaimer: I use Windows 8 ;)
 
Many have predicted this, including myself. We're all labeled as fools, not knowing what we're talking about; Win8 is great; you're wrong. Well, the proof is in the numbers. And frankly, the fix is simple- bring back the start menu. Period. Just make it an option in the setup. Let people have what THEY want, not what MS wants.

Microsoft's arrogance transcends all logic. What they've been doing the last year or so is so off base it's amazing- it's like they WANT to cause anger and division. Discontinuing SBS; trying to jam hosted mail services down everyone's throats; the abomination that MS Office 2013 is; on and on.
 
The tablet side was obviously the one that got more attention, and the few (and minor) details added to the desktop side are going to be overlooked.

Rather than expanding the functionality of the desktop and addressing whatever lingering issues still remain, MS decided to glue Metro on to it and call it an operating system for both.

I doubt MS was expecting Win8 to bolster PC sales, instead they were expecting their tablets and smartphones to do a lot better. Unfortunately for them, tablet sales stink, smartphone sales are poor, and Win8 has done nothing (perhaps even contribute) to calm the downward trend of PC sales.
 
What's interesting is that even the sales of Windows 8 tablets and hybrids were less than 2% according to IDC, that's a market that is critical to the success and barely just got going this past quarter as devices started coming out. And these devices are going to much different in the coming year, many people are definitely in a wait and see mode on the hardware.

While these numbers are definitely much worse than expected negative growth was expected and the Start Button/Menu wouldn't have changed that more than likely, though it may have made the slide not as bad.

There's just a lot more going on than Windows 8 over this though, tablets, PCs that are lasting longer, etc. As the end of XP gets closer and as hardware improves and gets cheaper and Windows 8 itself improves, we'll see if this continues and if Microsoft should then really be worried.
 
twwabw said:
Many have predicted this, including myself. We're all labeled as fools, not knowing what we're talking about; Win8 is great; you're wrong. Well, the proof is in the numbers.
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I doubt anyone really believes that the Start Menu/Button would dramatically turn this around. If the point that IDC is making is that Windows 8 is just too different than what people are used to, why would they spend more money on new PCs just get what they already have?
 
Analyze why Vista did so poorly and perhaps people might see some similarities.
 
heatlesssun said:
I doubt anyone really believes that the Start Menu/Button would dramatically turn this around. If the point that IDC is making is that Windows 8 is just too different than what people are used to, why would they spend more money on new PCs just get what they already have?
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For the same reason people have always upgraded- faster hardware; the old one is too old; etc. When OEMs are forced to stop shipping Win7 to businesses, the sh*t will really hit the fan. You think architects; engineers; contractors; accounting firms; etc will migrate to tablets? No. They want/need desktops to run the programs that earn for them. CAD on a tablet? Yeah right. The cost of training an integrating the bizarre Win8 into business will be catstrophic.
 
heatlesssun said:
What's interesting is that even the sales of Windows 8 tablets and hybrids were less than 2% according to IDC, that's a market that is critical to the success and barely just got going this past quarter as devices started coming out. And these devices are going to much different in the coming year, many people are definitely in a wait and see mode on the hardware.
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That's the news that matters. Tablet/hybrid sales being that poor is far more disastrous than the negative slide of conventional PCs; which, even though was almost twice as bad as was expected, was nevertheless expected to be quite bad. Yes, Haswell will make them more appealing, but it will also increase the price. The new Atoms aren't arriving in full force until 2014, and AMD's Jaguar-based products offer the only hope against the ARM onslaught throughout all of 2013 in the price brackets that MS needs to hit. Whether or not they can achieve the ~$300-$400 price brackets and still have comparable hardware is another issue entirely.

It's just not a good fit for mobile devices. They can't get their app store situation straightened out. Developers aren't biting. It's currently very lackluster and is still missing some crucial apps that are make-or-break for a mobile device/OS. On top of that, they don't have a proper way to differentiate themselves yet. Win32/legacy capability is great, but isn't as mandatory as it was half a decade ago -- and even less for mobile devices. On top of that, being tied to x86 means you've got to pay a premium for hardware, as well as the need to have more powerful hardware to run legacy applications. WinRT/Metro was meant to be a break from that burden, but even MS can't seem to get their own applications to run well on limited resources (for example, simply typing in Word on a Surface RT tablet makes the thing spike up to 70-80% CPU utilization).

I'd like to see them split Windows into two divisions: server/workstation and consumer/mobile. You're never going to satisfy workstation/productivity folks by minimizing the size of the OS and removing functionality and hardware compatibility, but that's exactly what's necessary for mobile.
 
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twwabw said:
Many have predicted this, including myself. We're all labeled as fools, not knowing what we're talking about; Win8 is great; you're wrong. Well, the proof is in the numbers. And frankly, the fix is simple- bring back the start menu. Period. Just make it an option in the setup. Let people have what THEY want, not what MS wants.
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I hear ya. Many of us predicted this very thing from the moment the Consumer Preview version came out, and agreed the solution is right there, make the start menu an option.
We said people would hate the new interface and would stay away from it in droves. Guess what, people are staying away from it in droves.
Yeah, PC sales were in decline anyway, but not THAT much in decline. Every single normal computer user I know (i.e. not power users like us) who bought a Windows 8 PC or Laptop absolutely HATE the interface, to the point where they will not replace any of their other PCs and laptops with another Windows 8 device. Want to guess what their complaints are? Yup, WTF is this confusing start screen, and how the hell do I use this thing?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, expecting people to memorize a bunch of Winkey combinations and burying functionality in hidden areas of screen is a retarded way to design a Desktop UI. Period.
 
pelo said:
I'd like to see them split Windows into two divisions: server/workstation and consumer/mobile. You're never going to satisfy workstation/productivity folks by minimizing the size of the OS and removing functionality and hardware compatibility, but that's exactly what's necessary for mobile.
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This would be an excellent concept. Let those who want toys have toys, and those who need to perform actual work on PCs have real PCs.
 
twwabw said:
This would be an excellent concept. Let those who want toys have toys, and those who need to perform actual work on PCs have real PCs.
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The plan was to leverage the "need" for Win32/legacy in order to sell tablets, and it clearly hasn't worked. People who buy tablets could care less for windows software if it's missing Facebook and Twitter. BYOD crowd is perfectly content with iPads and Nexus devices, and software has been moving toward cross-platform compatibility -- mainly because so many ARM/iOS/Android devices are sold, developers want to cash in on that massive market. Java is king now, not C# or even C++.

If you need legacy compatibility, you almost certainly can't do your work on a tablet anyway. If you want a tablet that can handle your software, then you're going to be paying a very costly premium.
 
pelo said:
That's the news that matters. Tablet/hybrid sales being that poor is far more disastrous than the negative slide of conventional PCs; which, even though was almost twice as bad as was expected, was nevertheless expected to be quite bad. Yes, Haswell will make them more appealing, but it will also increase the price. The new Atoms aren't arriving in full force until 2014, and AMD's Jaguar-based products offer the only hope against the ARM onslaught throughout all of 2013 in the price brackets that MS needs to hit. Whether or not they can achieve the ~$300-$400 price brackets and still have comparable hardware is another issue entirely.

It's just not a good fit for mobile devices. They can't get their app store situation straightened out. Developers aren't biting. It's currently very lackluster and is still missing some crucial apps that are make-or-break for a mobile device/OS. On top of that, they don't have a proper way to differentiate themselves yet. Win32/legacy capability is great, but isn't as mandatory as it was half a decade ago -- and even less for mobile devices. On top of that, being tied to x86 means you've got to pay a premium for hardware, as well as the need to have more powerful hardware to run legacy applications. WinRT/Metro was meant to be a break from that burden, but even MS can't seem to get their own applications to run well on limited resources (for example, simply typing in Word on a Surface RT tablet makes the thing spike up to 70-80% CPU utilization).

I'd like to see them split Windows into two divisions: server/workstation and consumer/mobile. You're never going to satisfy workstation/productivity folks by minimizing the size of the OS and removing functionality and hardware compatibility, but that's exactly what's necessary for mobile.
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I agree they need the NT Brand back..

Heatlessun no offense but the number speak for themselves 8 is a giant failure you keep putting a positive spin unfortunately their is no positive. No matter how good the coolaid is its still a poison.
 
Difficult to get the NT brand back given they've also Metro-fied their server distributions as well. The server/workstation crowd has already lost faith in MS, it's going to be difficult to get that sort of trust back. If you look at the server space, MS has been on a steady downward decline for a long time now. It's even worse in the non-traditional server space (web hosting, HPC) where they're a tiny sliver of the market. These people have very little problems migrating to another OS.

This is just a culmination of years of sitting on their asses and assuming nothing would change. Now that things have changed drastically, MS is trying to catch up.
 
I think there are oft looked over common sense points in nearly every article about PC sales decline and Windows 8 adoption

1. 5 year old PCs do everything Windows 8 does; they browse the internet, run Office, play Facebook games, etc. just as well as they used to.

2. Most people have no reason to adopt Windows 8. The Metro interface is different from the desktop, but does it really offer that preverbial carrot-on-a-stick to the average consumer? No.

3. No exclusive Windows 8 software exists that would drive sales. This is akin to launching a game console with little to no exclusive games to drive sales of it (I'm looking at you Wii-U)

4. Contrary to what the national news media would have us believe, the economy is not "rebounding", and especially the 8% in lost median household wealth is having a dramatic impact on PC sales. Families and people who have to choose between paying the internet bill or buying a new computer will always choose to pay the internet bill.
 
Monkey God said:
Analyze why Vista did so poorly and perhaps people might see some similarities.
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In Vista and Windows XP era, 2-3 year old computers were completely outdated and did everything significantly slower than their modern counterparts. Upgrading meant a 50+% boost in performance which can be felt in things like web browsing and mail checking.

Fast forward to Windows 7 and today's era, 5 year old computers are just as fast for web browsing, mail checking, facebook, and casual gaming as modern computers. Whereas everyone wants to keep up with the latest smartphone and tablet craze, no one wants to buy computers if their current one does the job.

Also, don't forget that corporate is Microsoft's biggest users.
 
I don't think Windows 8 was the sole cause of declining sales, but it surely hasn't helped. Businesses that typically have downgrade rights wouldn't be stopped from buying PC's due to Windows 8.

The major contributor is that people are using tablets and cell phones to access the Internet, where before they only had computers. The entertainment market is taking a slice out of the pie. I've heard more than one person say they don't use their computer anymore since they got an iPad. But these people are those who look up cat memes, check their Facebook friend count daily and tweet every time they take a shit. They're not doing it for productive reasons.

PC numbers will continue to drop but that will eventually slow because you can't completely get rid of PC's anytime soon. PC's are where most people do real work.
 
Once people/companies upgraded past the P4/AMD XP cpu era the pc's could do anything they wanted fast enough except for certain games and work programs. Just no need anymore unless MS forces EOL on products and makes users upgrade.
 
Windows 8 is unacceptable for corporate use. We just had a deployment meeting about that last week and the decision was made that we are not deploying and/or supporting Windows 8. You should know that to us Windows 8 Enterprise is part of the site license agreement so there is no additional licensing cost, the cost was not a factor in the decision.

Windows 7 works well and there is literally nothing that Windows 8 brings to the table in a corporate environment that would justify an "upgrade" and dealing with all the UI and functionality issues that would go along with such a move.

It was also decided that except for file servers all of our server environment will remain on Windows Server 2008.

I use Windows 8 at home full time and I hate it, just didn't have the time to revert back to 7 yet.
 
Thuleman said:
Windows 8 is unacceptable for corporate use. We just had a deployment meeting about that last week and the decision was made that we are not deploying and/or supporting Windows 8. You should know that to us Windows 8 Enterprise is part of the site license agreement so there is no additional licensing cost, the cost was not a factor in the decision.

Windows 7 works well and there is literally nothing that Windows 8 brings to the table in a corporate environment that would justify an "upgrade" and dealing with all the UI and functionality issues that would go along with such a move.

It was also decided that except for file servers all of our server environment will remain on Windows Server 2008.

I use Windows 8 at home full time and I hate it, just didn't have the time to revert back to 7 yet.
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I have done lots of testing of Windows 8 and trust me the inconsistencies of GPO processing is enough to say fuck it.
 
I have to agree that Microsoft's marketing for Windows 8 (which is a good OS), is utter fail. I think the tweet from that guy that was recently fired from Microsoft over his comments on the critics over always on connection sums up their current attitude as "its our way or the highway".
 
RangerXML said:
I have to agree that Microsoft's marketing for Windows 8 (which is a good OS), is utter fail. I think the tweet from that guy that was recently fired from Microsoft over his comments on the critics over always on connection sums up their current attitude as "its our way or the highway".
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If only Bill Gates were still in charge of Microsoft.
He did a great job of listening to Microsoft's loyal customer and testing bases, and wasn't nearly as psycho as Ballmer.

Ballmer, to me, is the Linus of Microsoft, aka, not a true representation of what it should be, or was a decade ago.
Unfortunately Ballmer has much more control over Microsoft than Linus has over the development of Linux.

Oh lord, I could only imagine how effed up Linux would be if Linus controlled every branch and distro. :eek:
 
Windows 8 is so bad that PC sales were falling 18 months straight before its release!

:rolleyes:
 
Red Falcon said:
If only Bill Gates were still in charge of Microsoft.
He did a great job of listening to Microsoft's loyal customer and testing bases, and wasn't nearly as psycho as Ballmer.
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There's more to it than just being an order taker. And just because someone doesn't do what you want doesn't mean they aren't listening. Indeed many loyal Windows users refuse to accept that the computing device industry is undergoing a massive shift to mobile and much of that customer base can't see beyond the keyboard and mouse.

That's not so say that Windows 8 couldn't be better or done differently to make it more popular but at the same time Microsoft clearly understood the risk they were taking. Steve Ballmer did say long before the details of Windows 8 went public that Windows 8 would be the biggest risk Microsoft had ever taken and I fundamentally agree with the risk that Microsoft is taking here. It makes since to leverage the desktop while it's in decline, a market that you dominate and will not likely to ever face any real competition since the market is in decline, and use it gain entry into mobile.

It may not work but at the same time I just don't see the Start Button/Menu as anywhere near enough to solve the PCs long term problems.
 
heatlesssun said:
What's interesting is that even the sales of Windows 8 tablets and hybrids were less than 2% according to IDC, that's a market that is critical to the success and barely just got going this past quarter as devices started coming out. And these devices are going to much different in the coming year, many people are definitely in a wait and see mode on the hardware.

While these numbers are definitely much worse than expected negative growth was expected and the Start Button/Menu wouldn't have changed that more than likely, though it may have made the slide not as bad.

There's just a lot more going on than Windows 8 over this though, tablets, PCs that are lasting longer, etc. As the end of XP gets closer and as hardware improves and gets cheaper and Windows 8 itself improves, we'll see if this continues and if Microsoft should then really be worried.
Click to expand...

I hate to say it... but your long winded posts defending Win8 are starting to make no sense....

You are the lone Win8 MS rep here....

And I run Win 8 myself, and I think without all the mods I use... it isnt worthy of a desktop OS. Simple.
 
heat, I didn't know Ballmer had talked about Windows 8 being a risk-factor before it's release.
I can certainly see why Microsoft wanted to start gearing away from the desktop market.

That being said, different things could have, and probably should have, taken place with Windows 8.
I get what Microsoft was doing, creating an OS that is the same across the board of platforms.

But because of this, without having seperate editions (desktop/laptop/classic edition vs tablet edition), many individuals, including myself, have seen Windows 8 as a half-baked hybrid that is dominant on neither platform.
While that is not the right way of thinking with this new OS, it doesn't help that many individuals are screaming at Microsoft to change certain aspects (not including the Start button), and it appears that Microsoft has just bullheadedly ignored them and continued through with their plan without really telling anyone what their ultimate goal is.

I agree, adding the Start button will not fix the PC desktop's problems, as they are much deeper than that at this point, and even then, I would only include Windows 8 as being a very tiny piece of that problem, if at all.
Hopefully Microsoft will start working with their customer base on this, or at least make it appear that they are doing so. (seriously, Microsoft's Windows 8 PR is just weird)


There is also definitely a shift away from the keyboard and mouse.
I may not like it, but I definitely have to admit that it is there, and it is growing.

To me, though, Windows 8 just seemed to take too big of a step in this direction too fast.
It is similar to how Office moved from 2003 to 2007, it was too big of a jump, not gradual enough imo.

Had Windows 8 had an optional Modern UI, along with the Start menu (by default), I think it would have eased individuals into the Modern UI, then by the time 9/Blue came around, Microsoft could have fully implimented the Modern UI and been fully rid of the Start button like 8 is now.
By that point, individuals would have been more used to it.

I could be wrong about this, but it's my opinion that it's not change that people don't like, it's large change that they dislike.
Office 2007 is obviously better than 2003 in many areas, and Windows 8 has many better qualities than 7.

If given enough time, people will start to shift and understand the differences.
But for such a large change all at once, I can see why many individuals are so upset at Windows 8.

It doesn't make it a bad OS, it just means that too many things happened to quickly for most to catch on all at once.
 
jmilcher said:
I hate to say it... but your long winded posts defending Win8 are starting to make no sense....

You are the lone Win8 MS rep here....

And I run Win 8 myself, and I think without all the mods I use... it isnt worthy of a desktop OS. Simple.
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I said that the classic UI wouldn't solve the sales issues of Windows 8. How is that making no sense or defending Windows 8?
 
heatlesssun said:
Why would people by a new PC when it's already what they have? Better performance? The PC that many people have is already plenty fast and capable.
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Exactly.
Updating a system that can already handle Word, Facebook, and general web browsing (which is what most people do) is totally pointless.

This is hurting desktop/laptop PC sales more than any OS ever will.
 
heatlesssun said:
Why would people by a new PC when it's already what they have? Better performance? The PC that many people have is already plenty fast and capable.
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It opens the Facebook and it opens the email...wiki is an added bonus.
 
Win 8 is pretty bad ass on my touchsmart and my HTC8X... not so great on a non-touchscreen device.
 
RangerXML said:
I have to agree that Microsoft's marketing for Windows 8 (which is a good OS), is utter fail. I think the tweet from that guy that was recently fired from Microsoft over his comments on the critics over always on connection sums up their current attitude as "its our way or the highway".
Click to expand...

The fact they place and promote guys like Adam Orth into Director positions says more about the company than him.
 
heatlesssun said:
And these devices are going to much different in the coming year, many people are definitely in a wait and see mode on the hardware.
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I have never heard anyone, not even on here (other than you) talk about how they are waiting for new tablets... I've heard people talk about Windows 8 (and not in a good light), but no one has once mentioned tablets.. Tablets also have a worse dose of the inherent problem that is affecting PC sales, buy one, no reason to upgrade for the stuff 99% of people actually do.
 
DeathPrincess said:
I have never heard anyone, not even on here (other than you) talk about how they are waiting for new tablets... I've heard people talk about Windows 8 (and not in a good light), but no one has once mentioned tablets.. Tablets also have a worse dose of the inherent problem that is affecting PC sales, buy one, no reason to upgrade for the stuff 99% of people actually do.
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Yeah, well, I'm the only one on here who talks about Linux.
So it's fine if heat talks about tablets.

Everyone has their thing.
I mean, you talk about my RocketFish all the time.

In fact, if I had a dollar for every time you mentioned my PSU... I could have probably bought a new one with the money by now. :D
 
DeathPrincess said:
I have never heard anyone, not even on here (other than you) talk about how they are waiting for new tablets... I've heard people talk about Windows 8 (and not in a good light), but no one has once mentioned tablets.. Tablets also have a worse dose of the inherent problem that is affecting PC sales, buy one, no reason to upgrade for the stuff 99% of people actually do.
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Then you simply haven't bothered to look in the mobile section in this forum.
 
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