Moving away from gaming headphones to Audiophile? Did I say that right?

N1GHTRA1N said:
Exactly... I love the neutral sound of my sennheisers, I have several different models. I can't understand how people shell out for bass heavy sets like beats and monster.

If I want more bass on my sennheisers, I use my EQ to help them out.
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I will be honest, I am enjoying them more and more (Bass boost has helped this) as I toy with settings and sources. I think if anything, I will amp them and then just keep them and upgrade later.

One thing I am thinking is maybe I overrated the need for positional audio in gaming and may get the 600 or 650's.
 
I have 650's and I don't recommend them for gaming. Also note they are 600 ohms so you'll need a amp for sure.

I haven't used the 600's much... tested them out a few years back and thought they were pretty good but not blown away. Got the 650's last year and love them for music.
 
Mathematician said:
Sorry, I just took a minute and looked up the prices and they are a little more than you had wanted to spend. If you want to increase the budget a bit, they are a great choice though.
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Yeah dude, like 1.5k-2k. A little on the high side. A little. I have been playing around with getting a pair of LCD-2, but I've heard they're not comfortable and they're just a bit too much for me to just try out on a whim.

HammerSandwich said:
Beware the flip side here. (This is especially true for those just getting into quality audio, because experience.)

A lot of speakers & headphones have colorations which can generate that initial "Wow!" This is great for selling speakers in a 15-minute demo & less useful for long-term happiness. You might even question the manufacturers' motives...

If a wide variety of songs mostly shows a certain characteristic, it's probably coming from the system, not the recordings. And that's usually a bad thing, even if it impresses you. The Beats bass boost makes an easy example here.
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I can't objectively prove to you one way or the other regarding this. That being said, you're talking to the person that could hear hiss coming out of the JBL LSR305's from 4+ feet away... I have pretty sensitive high end hearing. The T1's are pretty much a better (<insert disclaimer here>) version of the DT880's, which do have a noticeable treble hump... so I don't know if that would be something I would consider pleasant simply based on the coloration (rather it gets a bit harsh to me, so it probably isn't). What I noticed when I put on the T1's immediately is that they simply had better sound quality. There was no other way to describe it. Everything I heard, I heard better. And I heard more of it (though part of that was the treble peak, which does bring out detail). Honestly, I realize that this is horribly unfair either way, though. We're talking about a 600$ pair of earphones on their best sale, vs something that's like 100$. Also I got the T1's from Amazon, so I had 30 days to return them.

Here's a fun little discussion on Head-Fi about neutrality of headphones, which ends on a humorous note that likely rings true:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/632978/how-do-you-tell-when-a-headphone-is-producing-a-neutral-sound
Many of the members participating in it are banned, which is a good thing as far as Head-Fi goes. As far as frequency response neutrality, I think most headphones that are worth anything actually have relatively flat response... frequency response just doesn't tell you much, though.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/495432/objective-food-for-thought-dt880-t1-hd800
http://cdn.head-fi.org/c/cb/350x280px-cb811a2c_graphCompare.png

rezerekted said:
Yes, the "audiophile" sound is usually considered more neutral, which is what the HD598 is.
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No. Audiophile sound is considered whatever the heck the person that wasted a crapton of money defines as really pleasant to his or her ears. There is no objective measure of "audiophile sound". You have to measure a lot of aspects of it to figure out what is closest to the reference sound, across many recordings... and a person can't be the tester. People don't work as testing devices, though ironically and perhaps paradoxically they're the only testing devices that matter as they are what is going to be using any of these products.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
No. Audiophile sound is considered whatever the heck the person that wasted a crapton of money defines as really pleasant to his or her ears. There is no objective measure of "audiophile sound".
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Wrong. Audiophiles for the most part have always denigrated colored speakers and even making use of the loudness button. Notice I say most and not all. If a speaker doesn't sound good flat then it isn't worth buying.

OP, should check out this site.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/innerfidelitys-wall-fame

If I was buying today and wanted to spend no more than $300 I would maybe go for HiFiMAN HE400S or Philips Fidelio X2.
 
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I think the Philips X2 is still worth a try. A warehouse deal + Amazon's return policy would make it pretty painless to try them out.
 
rezerekted said:
Wrong. Audiophiles for the most part have always denigrated colored speakers and even making use of the loudness button. Notice I say most and not all. If a speaker doesn't sound good flat then it isn't worth buying.
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You're totally wrong, and I think the point flew over your head. In the first place we aren't talking about speakers. Second of all, most "audiophiles" I have seen simply essentially report whether they like the sound they're hearing or not (largely colored by "oh boy, I spent like 5k on this so it must be good"). Not one solitary crap was given about frequency response, and they have no objective manner to report whether what they're hearing is actually accurate/flat or not. This isn't counting the fact that each room is totally different, and speakers are largely influenced by the room. Which again doesn't matter at all for headphones. I mean hell if we want flat, let's look at HD800 vs HD600:
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=853&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=863&graphID[]=2881
Oh boy the HD800 must be trash compared to the HD600. I mean the latter is noticeably more flat...

As far as headphones, read some of those other things I posted. I also Lol'd at the link you posted:
Sennheiser HD 650 ($499)
Editors Note: This headphone was retired from the list when, after doing the official review, I found the less costly HD 600 to be slightly better sounding for me.
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Oh boy, such accurate judgements. He really looks like he has an objective basis for his opinions!
 
Try the X2 then. I understand. The Senn sound is great to me bc it does not color the sound much. Aka a footstep is more clearly heard.

People mention burn in. That probably is a bit of bs. However, a time period is required for the mind to catch up to a new headphone. You have to give yourself a bit of time with the more high end headphones in order to understand their way of presenting the sound. Stax are way different sounding than dynamics for example. Reason being is how much faster they are due to thinner drivers. Takes a bit to really "hear" what a headphone sounds like.
 
I've had several pairs of Sennheisers over the last several years and find the AKG Q701s (after a little playing around with damping mods) to be even better with a proper, strong enough source. The next step for me is probably a better quality amp -- I'm currently using old Technics and Yamaha receiver headphones out connections, 60s and 70s vintage. They're far from trash, but not at all purpose built.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
You're totally wrong, and I think the point flew over your head.
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I'm not totally wrong and nothing flew over my head. Headphones are just small speakers/drivers.

Audiophiles tend to look for a flat frequency in speakers/headphones, fact.
 
I'm interested to find how good the headset is on the Oculus Rift.
I read a review of the rift by a guy who claimed to be an audiophile, he thought it excelled!
I didnt save the link unfortunately but my wish stands.
I wont find out for myself until May.

Back on topic...
Flat frequency response is a good metric to start with but isnt most appreciated.
Most people I know prefer more bass for sure.
But f response isnt the whole story, not by a mile.
The ability of the system as a whole to pass through minute detail, even at lower frequencies is critical.
As is your own ability to hear the detail!


My hearing tops out below 15K yet I can tell the difference between high end DACs without a problem.
The DACs all respond up to 192KHz which translates to 96KHz audio.
Hifis dont generally respond anywhere near that, usually only an order of magnitude above 20KHz and my hearing even less, so some of the difference has to be from something else.
The uniformity (lack of variance in timing) of the clock pulse of the DAC is a large factor.
Quality of the DACs electronics is paramount.
So choose a decent DAC!


The moral being...
If you are able to notice the differences between DACs, then every element of your system is crucial, even the cables, because a good DACs quality will be destroyed by a poor system.
If you cant tell the difference, you can settle for much lesser equipment and be just as happy, and lucky you!
(Make sure that the reason you cant tell the difference isnt because the system wont allow you to hear it)
If you can tell the difference, its way way harder to choose your equipment.
It is one of lifes joys that is a shame to miss if you have the ability to hear the finer detail.
Its worth finding out if this is for you.

Having said that, decent bass response adds massively to the experience.
The above means little if the bass is crap.
More detail can sound a little tinnier so the bass must be satisfactory to match it.

My bit after a few sherries.
Hope it makes sense :)
 
You know when cables have been ABX tested no one can tell the dif between bare coat hanger wire and esoteric cable, right?

As for HD600 vs HD650, that guy at Inner Fidelity is well respected and most prefer the sound of HD600 over HD650 because it has - wait for it - more neutral SQ.
 
rezerekted said:
You know when cables have been ABX tested no one can tell the dif between bare coat hanger wire and esoteric cable, right?
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It Really does depend on the quality of the equipment used and the cables under test.
And to some extent the person listenings capability and whether they even care (most dont even if they can tell the difference).
Quality hifi doesnt appeal to most people I know. (The majority of those it does appeal to tend to be people who were exposed to musical instruments at an early age)

I'm not speaking about something I read somewhere, I know from a lot of experience making sure what is or isnt bullshit.
Even optical cables sound different with good enough kit.
I can tell the difference between USB cables to my DACs, so much that I made my own from decent copper wire, minimal twist of the wire and power lines kept a distance away. The sound has a bit more detail and imaging is improved. (Although I rarely use it now because the Oppo DAC can play music from USB or a network connection)
I dont recommend spending stupid money, just put some effort into getting good cables at a decent price.
For example, get fat Van Damme speaker wire from Amazon if not using headphones, this is what I use. 2x 6mm wire per speaker on the fronts, 1.5mm to the rears (bass is cut off from 80Hz so no real need for impractical fat wire over a long distance)

Those ABX testers need to try testing with my kit which is pretty good but by no means the best.
There is even a marked difference between single 6mm wire to my speakers and biwiring the same. Going back to single wire makes the treble less focused, muddier, its easy to notice.
This system is so revealing I am using very short pure silver wire with cotton dielectric interconnects from the DAC to the front stereo amp, directly soldered into the amp. It made a tremendous difference to the detail, so much that my brother did the same and he wont go back. I cant recommend anyone else do this unless your kit is good enough. If your system is already too bright, this isnt something that will work well unless you can turn your tweeters down a little.
Basic Oxygen Free copper interconnects should be the minimum used though.

For the record I'm using
DACs: Oppo 105D (has a nice headphone amp too), Minimax Tube DAC plus (tube removed, this makes it sound quite a lot clearer)
Amps: Emotiva XPA 2 and 3
Speakers: Home built 10" Transmission Line bass, Magnesium mid and Ribbon tweeter


Believe what you will.
Its hard to accept what I say until you hear it for yourself.
And maybe even then you wont care for it.
:)
 
Yeah, sorry, the one thing I won't do is drink the "better cables mean better sound" coolaid. I have some fairly high end stereo equipment (Magnepans, Klipsch Cornwalls, Bose 901s, multiple Teac, Yamaha, and Technics 60's and 70's era receivers... and I've heard systems I don't even want to think about the cost of, built around Martin Logan electrostats and the like. We even played the A/B game, with crazy expensive custom wound silver cables and your basic oxygen free copper. Zero difference. If the electrons are making it where they need to go and there isn't a bunch of crosstalk, you're fine. Buying a $1000 fancy extra shielded power cable won't make a difference either, so long as your system is connected to a properly grounded circuit.
 
Like I said, perhaps its just not for you.
But I also cant account for the systems you used, although I have no wish to doubt you.
All I can tell you is that it makes quite an appreciable difference here.

I dont recommend silver plated copper interconnects, that tends to boost treble a lot more than other frequencies.
And I'm not a fan of silver speaker wire, that tends to do the same.
(bearing in mind that hifi systems were not designed to have such a large boost to treble response)
 
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If you think your ears are that good you should take this ABX test and win $10,000.00.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

"Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure &#8220;good enough&#8221; and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules. "

"Richard Clark says over a couple thousand people have taken the test, and nobody has passed."
 
It helps to be able to pick up the detail but it also helps to have a system that exposes it as well.
That test doesnt say anything at all about the listener or anyones system.
It says something about his amps, they must be very similar sounding on his equipment.

My brother and I compared our systems, not easy, we are hundreds of miles apart.
My amps didnt sound as nice as his on his system, but his system had an error in the speaker crossovers we later found. We didnt try those amps on my system unfortunately.

We fixed the crossover and he bought new (better) amps, we tried these amps on my system.
We couldnt even slightly tell the difference between them and mine.
High quality amps are very similar

I dont doubt the challenge will be impractically tough.
 
Most hi-fi speakers have a descending power response even if they have a flattish frequency response. Panel speakers are designed to have a slightly descending frequency response because their sound is dominated by direct sound instead of room reflections like a regular hi-fi speaker.

Same goes for headphones. You want a slightly descending (bass dominant) frequency response because in panels, near field and headphones a totally flat frequency response sounds like it lacks bass. A bit of bass boost is what sounds 'natural' to most people.

Oh, and the problem with the ABX test previously mentioned is that even if users could make a clear distinction between the machines, the ABX test requires far beoyond that and is very stressing for the test subject. Hearing a difference and identifying repeatedly which one is which are two very different things. Having said that I agree with them that speakers are the by far largest factor in the end result. Source and amps have so high standards compared to speakers it's not even funny.
 
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Nenu, either listen to your cables on a pair of high end electrostats (being the most accurate speaker tech we currently have) or stop this nonsense. I've played this game on 30K systems, if not more -- and that's before the inflation of your insanely priced interconnects. I've heard Cornwalls in custom-built basement rooms. I've heard $6000 Magnepan systems with amps to match. I don't claim to have the equipment, but I promise the people I know and hang with do, in fact, have it. Your whole "cables matter" nonsense has been completely refuted 20+ years ago. You're just throwing money at the wall cause you've convinced yourself it makes a difference.

It. Does. Not.

My EE friends, and my father's EE friends, and his father's before him... we're been laughing for a while. 2, 3, 4 generations or so.
 
Hey, our experience is our experience.
If you dont like it, I cant help that.
If it differs from yours I cant help that.

I'm not saying that this is for everyone, I made that very clear.
I have stated what happened for us.
Since then one of my friends had me build him a set of almost identical speakers and he agrees with our findings as well.

It might help to read up on Ribbon tweeters.
I considered getting some electrostats but ended up making my own with ribbons.
I have not been disappointed, they are seriously revealing.
 
True. For anyone interested in the Philips X2, Massdrop (which has no return policy) has the X2 new for 205 shipped. Also in that link is a message from the manufacturer about the glue issue.
 
John721 said:
True. For anyone interested in the Philips X2, Massdrop (which has no return policy) has the X2 new for 205 shipped. Also in that link is a message from the manufacturer about the glue issue.
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So my X2's came in today, and I'm just now giving them a test run. One thing I am immediately noticing is that I can crank the volume all the way to 100% comfortably, where as the 598's were way too loud at like 60-70. Is this indicative of a problem?

EDIT: Is this where an AMP comes into play? The x2's perform well unamped, but if I amp them I'm going to get the volume I got from the 598s?

There is also a possibility I don't like open back.

It's also time for a soundcard suggestion. This card has just been kind of a nightmare - I'm getting static with it that I'm not getting using a mix amp pro or onboard.
 
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The X2's seem to be 30ohm, and the 598 are 50ohm so the 598 should be a little harder to drive but at these low impedance levels anything can drive them so it should be unnoticeable.

The X2's should be a little louder from what I've seen but I've never used them for any extended period of time or directly in comparison with anything else I own so I can't confirm.

Lots of people prefer closed back headphones. I like the open back style better because they sound more like speakers instead of sounding like the music is inside my head.

The only closed headphones I have now that are over ear style are the V-Moda Crossfades LP2 and Bose QC25. If you are looking for a good closed headphone here are some of my suggestions. I like the Beyerdynamic ones the least because I find them a little too bright. I've used the 770's and found them pretty good. I own 880's. I havent used the Custom One Pro Plus but heard great things. If you want a fun bright experience then they are great.
If you want more bass then the V-Moda or the Sony are great choices. Sony also has excellent noise cancelling.
The Sennheiser Momentum are also excellent, and offer a more neutral sound.
Bose QC25 are my travel headset because of their excellent noise cancellation. I almost never use them at home.

http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/custom/?content=custom_plus
http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/dt-770-pro.html
http://v-moda.com/crossfade-lp2-matte-black-metal/
http://v-moda.com/crossfade-m-100/
http://www.sony.com/electronics/headband-headphones/mdr-10rnc#product_details_default
http://en-ca.sennheiser.com/momentum-m2

As for a sound card, what exactly are you looking for?
 
Using Beyerdynamic MMX-300's here, excellent cans and a very good mic.
Not cheap, but they get both jobs done, well.
 
N1GHTRA1N said:
The X2's seem to be 30ohm, and the 598 are 50ohm so the 598 should be a little harder to drive but at these low impedance levels anything can drive them so it should be unnoticeable.

The X2's should be a little louder from what I've seen but I've never used them for any extended period of time or directly in comparison with anything else I own so I can't confirm.
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Innerfidelity has measured both, and the impedance difference is larger than the specs indicate. Especially in the bass, where the 598's have a big peak.

The comparison's interesting, because they have the same voltage sensitivity, which implies they'll produce equal SPLs under the same conditions. The X2's lower impedance is probably loading down the sound card too much, reducing the voltage it can produce. I don't know enough about the source to say more.

Note also that differences in frequency response & distortion can make 1 set sound louder at the same SPL, and this can vary across recordings. I can't recall how Tyll measures sensitivity, but there can be significant differences here.
 
JMFitzy85 said:
It's also time for a soundcard suggestion. This card has just been kind of a nightmare - I'm getting static with it that I'm not getting using a mix amp pro or onboard.
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Is this only with the headphones? Does it happen at lower volume settings? Can you temporarily feed the HD's RCA output into any other electronics (or powered speakers) so the card doesn't drive the headphones or speakers?
 
Wouldn't go soundcard, but external DAC and amp, something like a Schiit Magni/Modi combo. That'll run you $200 together. If you don't want to spend that much, the Fulla combo DAC/amp dongle is $80, and probably higher quality than anything else you're going to find under $100.
 
silent-circuit said:
Wouldn't go soundcard, but external DAC and amp, something like a Schiit Magni/Modi combo. That'll run you $200 together. If you don't want to spend that much, the Fulla combo DAC/amp dongle is $80, and probably higher quality than anything else you're going to find under $100.
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I seem to be really struggling here. I've fixed the static issue, but I don't know, am I just too far in the lower range of headsets to notice a big difference compared to like Astro a40's? Am I simply expecting to be blown away too much.

Even the x2's aren't exactly making me fall in love. I'm confused and think maybe I am just expecting too much.

EDIT: I had my girlfriend try them out with one of her favorite Adele songs. She's not an audiophile but she runs a best buy and has at least some audio experience and we like similar things.

She immediately said "It's missing something." or "lacking a bottom.." .. Feeling like the sound stage was big but like it was just lacking impact. I still agree, I feel like open back is a problem for me.
 
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I just read this comment at that Masscool site about the X2. Is this not similar to what you are hearing? How is the bass compared to HD598?

"If you're used to open headphones, do note that the bass on these are going to be very jarring. They have more bass than a lot of closed headphones, especially at first. 2 weeks in and my pair is still breaking in. Bass is becoming more tolerable and less booming and very fatiguing. Sound is highly colored and reminds me of Grados."
 
No, I actually still feel as if I'm experiencing the opposite. The only thing these two supposedly great headphones have in common is that they are open back and neither I am very impressed with.

Unrelated. I have a Pioneer receiver, do these work as amps in any capacity?
 
Most receivers have a headphone output jack. Could try it.

She immediately said "It's missing something." or "lacking a bottom.." .. Feeling like the sound stage was big but like it was just lacking impact. I still agree, I feel like open back is a problem for me.
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I do prefer closed myself. Sounds like you might just enjoy the Shure SRH1540. I owned them for a while and they're 'fun' headphones. Powerful, cinematic (emphasized) bass. Quality mids, but slightly missing. Well extended highs without being shrill, sibilant, or harsh. Very spacious and open sound...for a closed back. Most comfy earpads I've ever felt. Amazon has some good warehouse deals usually for them, though in my case, I called Musician's Friend and asked for a lower price. And got it. Not perfect or cheap headphones, but fun for sure.

Two other fun headphones I've tried that may be worth a look are the B&W P7 and the Sennheiser Momentum 2.0. Crutchfield usually has a refurb deal on the P7 and a superb return policy.

If we're straying into true basshead territory, I hear good things about the V-Moda M-100. I've heard them described as "tastefully colored", more or less and Amazon's rocking a low price on them these days.
 
Everyone is different. Hearing is subjective. You appear to be a bass head. I will say that it is common for people to initially go through a lot of headphones until they find one they like. Kind of like dating.

The Shure is a good rec as well as the Vmoda. Ultrasones go deep as well.

There is always Darth Beyers. If you find them lacking in the low end.....well then give up.

http://www.headphile.com/page8.html
 
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spaceman said:
Everyone is different. Hearing is subjective. You appear to be a bass head. I will say that it is common for people to initially go through a lot of headphones until they find one they like. Kind of like dating.

The Shure is a good rec as well as the Vmoda. Ultrasones go deep as well.

There is always Darth Beyers. If you find them lacking in the low end.....well then give up.

http://www.headphile.com/page8.html
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The true bass comes in the form of vibration. Headphones + bass shaker might be a good combination... :)
 
spaceman said:
Everyone is different. Hearing is subjective. You appear to be a bass head. I will say that it is common for people to initially go through a lot of headphones until they find one they like. Kind of like dating.

The Shure is a good rec as well as the Vmoda. Ultrasones go deep as well.

There is always Darth Beyers. If you find them lacking in the low end.....well then give up.

http://www.headphile.com/page8.html
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Yeah I might be, and I'm wondering if I should just start moving away from the importance of positional in games.

So, I'm looking at the V-MODA M100, but has anyone had any experience with any of the Bowers and Wilkins sets? I know I'm going off the grid but I always sort of liked them.

Also the Audio Technica r70-x.
 
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