Moving away from gaming headphones to Audiophile? Did I say that right?

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JMFitzy85

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So, I'm sort of using you guys again here as I tried doing my own research on this topic so I wouldn't have to bug you.

I'm going to move away from standard gaming headsets, I think, as I've heard you can get some excellent sound out of a great pair of stereo headphones and a good soundcard that will simulate surround. I see that popular choices for gaming are the Sennheiser HD598, and the 650's

I do plan on also listening to Music, but I suppose primary use would be gaming. My current sound card is a creative xfi titanium HD and my budget to upgrade this would probably be a little north or south of 500-600.

So I guess the question is if the current sound card is going to be enough to get quality sound/surround with either of those pairs without an amp? And if not, some other recommendations for a set up or pair that would do a better job than Razers, logitechs etc.

Thanks guys.
 
No, the Titanium HD won't be good without an amp. It does have an amplified output for directly connecting headphones, but it actually uses an inferior DAC compared to the main DAC on the card. The main DAC on the card is very good, better than most "external DACs" which are really nothing more than external sound cards. There are plenty of amps available for all sorts of budgets though, so don't let that stop you.

It's difficult to give a general recommendation when it comes to headphones as preference plays such a huge part. It's like buying shoes. See if you have a store nearby. Musical equipment stores, like a Guitar Center, often sell high-end headphones also, and allow you a chance to try them on. I would recommend checking out Beyerdynamic. They sell "pro" versions of most of their headphones which drop the frills and are cheaper. They usually have more clamping force also (if you like that). Don't forget to invest in a good dedicated microphone also, so you don't end up going back to a POS headset for that reason.
 
Thanks man, I appreciate that.

So if I route these headphones through an amp and into the sound card (If that's how it works) will that still allow me to at least use the surround capabilities the card has? The amp doesn't mess with it?

Are there any particular reasonably priced Amps that you like? I guess 100-200 in price if that's possible.
 
I bought a blue yeti mic recently and am taking the same tactic as O.P.

I've long had a couple really nice headphones - Sennheiser HD598 among them, and then a set of gaming headphones that are good, but not great.

Why am I spending the majority of my time using headphones that aren't great? Cause of the mic? That's dumb I thought (finally)

So I picked up the Blue Yeti mic on Black Friday, dialed it in (it works great by the way), and then started using my HD-598 for gaming. It's a nice improvement. Bonus, I was using the onboard soundcard on my z87-GD65 and always had a bit of static on it. Always! The blue yeti has a built in sound card and so I can plug my headphones into the mic and have no static on the line whatsoever. So overall - the experience is much better.
 
you don't need an amp for the HD-598.

Whether you need an amp or not is based on the headphones impedance rating.

Something like the Sennheiser HD 600 with an impedance of 300ohms - will likely need a headphone amp. Something like the Sennheiser HD 598 with an impedance of 50 ohms, does not. Something with 32, 16, or 64 ohms does not. Summarily speaking.
 
The other thing you might consider is that Sennheiser makes gaming headphones. Which are pricey but probably do everything right. I've personally not heard a pair, but with my experience with Sennheiser - it's probably a safe bet.

I've owned HD-598, HD-600 (harder to drive with mp3 players, PC etc - so I sold it), and a few other lesser models. All I've owned from them except the very cheapest stuff has been stellar.

Game Zero (closed headphones)
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-GA...id=1451594560&sr=8-1&keywords=sennheiser+zero

and Game One (open back headphones)
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-GA...qid=1451594625&sr=8-1&keywords=sennheiser+one
 
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I've been kicking around that suggestion Arch, and I'm thinking about it. I just have used the pc360's in the past, and now the g35's and even Astro a50's. Am I wrong to assume the sound on the hd598's and 650's will blow these away with the proper set up?

I'm wondering now if maybe I can find an all in one type of solution with good surround. My current Logtech g35's the volume is absolutely atrociously low, as well.
 
JMFitzy85 said:
So, I'm sort of using you guys again here as I tried doing my own research on this topic so I wouldn't have to bug you.

I'm going to move away from standard gaming headsets, I think, as I've heard you can get some excellent sound out of a great pair of stereo headphones and a good soundcard that will simulate surround. I see that popular choices for gaming are the Sennheiser HD598, and the 650's

I do plan on also listening to Music, but I suppose primary use would be gaming. My current sound card is a creative xfi titanium HD and my budget to upgrade this would probably be a little north or south of 500-600.

So I guess the question is if the current sound card is going to be enough to get quality sound/surround with either of those pairs without an amp? And if not, some other recommendations for a set up or pair that would do a better job than Razers, logitechs etc.

Thanks guys.
Click to expand...

Titanium HD is still the best sound card for positional. I use mine with rca outs to a schiit lyr 2 amp, then to Hifiman HE-4's. Pretty sweet sound.
 
op if you did not have a budget i would have suggested go with these things for your audio setup.

Schiit Audio Gungnir Multibit DAC
Schiit Audio Mjolnir 2 Amplifier
Woo Audio WA7 & WA7tp Fireflies
Audeze LCD-4 Headphones
Audeze LCD-2F Headphones
MrSpeaker Ether C Headphones
JH Audio Roxanne CIEMs
Norne Audio Arcane Cable (Audeze)
Norne Audio Silvergarde Cable (MrSpeakers)
Norne Audio Silvergarde SC Interconnect
PlusSound Echo+ Cable (JH Audio Siren Series)
Noble BTS (Bluetooth Solution)
AntLion ModMic 4.0 Omni-Directional
 
Stryker7314 said:
Titanium HD is still the best sound card for positional. I use mine with rca outs to a schiit lyr 2 amp, then to Hifiman HE-4's. Pretty sweet sound.
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Do you think subbing those headphones with Senn HD650's or below would produce similar positional audio? I ask because I'm in a position to get a decent discount on sennhesier products at the moment.

EDIT: Actually, same with a few brands. Audio technica also.
 
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Archaea said:
you don't need an amp for the HD-598.

Whether you need an amp or not is based on the headphones impedance rating.

Something like the Sennheiser HD 600 with an impedance of 300ohms - will likely need a headphone amp. Something like the Sennheiser HD 598 with an impedance of 50 ohms, does not. Something with 32, 16, or 64 ohms does not. Summarily speaking.
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What you are saying makes sense for most soundcards, because on most cards the main output is essentially an amplified output (maybe a weak amplifier, but amplified nonetheless). That is not the case with the Titanium HD. It's main outputs (what the good DAC on the card outputs to) are a pair of unamplified RCA outputs. It's definitely not meant to drive headphones directly, not even low-impedance headphones. The separate headphone output on the card uses an inferior DAC; nice for temporary or emergency usage but not much more than that. The Titanium HD is meant to be used with external amplification.

JMFitzy85 said:
Are there any particular reasonably priced Amps that you like? I guess 100-200 in price if that's possible.
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I am a big fan of the Little-Dot I+. I've had a number of amps made by this company and they have all been great purchases. This is the most versatile, offering the most customization, while being the most compatible with different headphone impedance. Not sure if tubes are your thing or not, but it is a whole lot of fun swapping in different tubes, enjoying the subtle differences. You can also swap out opamps.
 
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GotNoRice said:
What you are saying makes sense for most soundcards, because on most cards the main output is essentially an amplified output (maybe a weak amplifier, but amplified nonetheless). That is not the case with the Titanium HD. It's main outputs (what the good DAC on the card outputs to) are a pair of unamplified RCA outputs. It's definitely not meant to drive headphones directly, not even low-impedance headphones. The separate headphone output on the card uses an inferior DAC; nice for temporary or emergency usage but not much more than that. The Titanium HD is meant to be used with external amplification.



I am a big fan of the Little-Dot I+. I've had a number of amps made by this company and they have all been great purchases. This is the most versatile, offering the most customization, while being the most compatible with different headphone impedance. Not sure if tubes are your thing or not, but it is a whole lot of fun swapping in different tubes, enjoying the subtle differences. You can also swap out opamps.
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I like the price of the amp obviously, I've no experience with tubes but sure I could come to appreciate the nuance.

So I guess a general follow up question would be that if I decided to do something like the Sennheiser hd700's would I just be gimping myself considering for PC use I would get nearly as much out of them?
 
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I just want to note, you don't really need a sound card to simulate surround. I have an O2 DAC/AMP driving a pair of Beyer T1's, and one thing I have noted time and time again is that I can generally tell in which direction things are going down when using my earphones. I'm guessing maybe sound cards might accentuate environmental cues to make them more obvious, but I really haven't had any issue with just a normal headphone amp and pair of earphones, as far as directional cues go.
 
So, there's absolutely no way I'm going to be able to select a pair.

Too many brands, too many variables. Might just stick with my Astros and route them through my soundcard with a toslink adapter.

All signs point to the 598s, but I'm scared about the distinct lack of bass. I want great positional audio but I don't want to suffer something tinny or weak. I don't know. This has been a challenge.
 
If you can find a pair locally to test, I recommend the AKG Q701. You can get better bass out of them with a fairly simple mod, too.
 
Yeah, I heard the Sony MA900's are really good, too. The more I read about the sennheisers the more I get bummed out.
 
JMFitzy85 said:
So, there's absolutely no way I'm going to be able to select a pair.

Too many brands, too many variables. Might just stick with my Astros and route them through my soundcard with a toslink adapter.

All signs point to the 598s, but I'm scared about the distinct lack of bass. I want great positional audio but I don't want to suffer something tinny or weak. I don't know. This has been a challenge.
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Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Seems that your budget would allow 598s AND a bassier set (M50x or Beyer 770s?) while leaving room for an amp.

Even folks with the most expensive cans still prefer specific ones for certain genres, etc. IMO, you'll be a lot happier with 2 quality options for the same total price as 1 pair that must do everything well.
 
HammerSandwich said:
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Seems that your budget would allow 598s AND a bassier set (M50x or Beyer 770s?) while leaving room for an amp.

Even folks with the most expensive cans still prefer specific ones for certain genres, etc. IMO, you'll be a lot happier with 2 quality options for the same total price as 1 pair that must do everything well.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a good point.

I do actually think I want to try a more premium pair and then end up amping it if need be. Since the sennheisers seem to lack any and all bass, I was looking at some of the higher end Audio Technicas.

Have you or anyone here had any experience with the ATHR-70X's? Whether it be for music or position sound in games. I notice this pair gets left out of a lot of popular, informative threads on the topic.
 
Sorry, no experience with the newest cans. I use 99% speakers & 1% IEMs for isolation, so haven't been shopping.

That said, Tyll's recent reviews in the $200-400 range make me want to hear the Hifiman HE400S, Oppo PM-3 & Philips Fidelio X2. The X2's probably your best match, because bass. But note that the Oppo is basically flat to 10Hz(!) & should work really well with a few dB of boost.
 
JMFitzy85 said:
Since the sennheisers seem to lack any and all bass,
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Where did you read that? I have a pair of HD558 on my head right now and they have bass, just not really strong bass. I had HD598 but gave them away as a gift, 558 uses same driver and only dif is a bit of material to block higher frequencies that can be removed. I have beyerdynamic DT990pro too and they have more bass but not a lot more.
 
Sennheisers have plenty of low end. AKG 702 or so has little bass impact unless u drive the hell out of them. Phillips X2 would probably be the easy bet.

Or Stax.....heh
 
rezerekted said:
Where did you read that? I have a pair of HD558 on my head right now and they have bass, just not really strong bass. I had HD598 but gave them away as a gift, 558 uses same driver and only dif is a bit of material to block higher frequencies that can be removed. I have beyerdynamic DT990pro too and they have more bass but not a lot more.
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I wish I could link a source here, and If I look I probably could but I've been doing so much website jumping. It just seemed to be a common theme that they had this really kind of .. I don't know.. relaxed or gentle sound that might not be great for immersion in games other than the competitive style. Like they are excellent for positional audio but there's not really a fullness to them.

With that said, since I'm trying to buy from a specific retailer I think I probably narrowed it down to the HD 598 vs the 600 and then just amping the 600 later. The link provided here said the 600's were pretty excellent, and actually (in his opinion) were better than the 650's ..

If I get a 600 and not amp them right away, am I still going to appreciate them for the time being? As in it goes from good to better, or better to best.

EDIT: On another note - the XFI Titanium HD super aggravates me. I'm tired of it's goofy hook ups (Toslink adapters and what not) and the console launcher gives me more trouble than it's worth. Are there better soundcards to pair with these headphones? I know the HD has great positional audio, but the thing has been a stress ball since it was purchased.

EDIT Number 2! Thoughts on the asus xonar phoebus amping capabilities?
 
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Phoebus is a hunk of junk due to atrocious drivers. Mine is sitting in my closet. Leave that crap in the store. No linux support. Great sounding hardware when it is supported. It doesn't even work with all games.
 
I'll second the Philips X2, great set of headphones. They are super comfortable, have really superb sound comparable to much more expensive sets, and have been said to have some of the biggest sound stages out there.
 
Archaea said:
you don't need an amp for the HD-598.

Whether you need an amp or not is based on the headphones impedance rating.

Something like the Sennheiser HD 600 with an impedance of 300ohms - will likely need a headphone amp. Something like the Sennheiser HD 598 with an impedance of 50 ohms, does not. Something with 32, 16, or 64 ohms does not. Summarily speaking.
Click to expand...

This isn't accurate.

You can't simply look at impedance... simply because its not constant along the frequency range. Also, there are other factors.

In my experience, blind testing with my brother, I found the Sennheiser HD555 (same family as HD598) to gain A TON by switching to a dedicated amp.
 
JMFitzy85 said:
I wish I could link a source here, and If I look I probably could but I've been doing so much website jumping. It just seemed to be a common theme that they had this really kind of .. I don't know.. relaxed or gentle sound that might not be great for immersion in games other than the competitive style. Like they are excellent for positional audio but there's not really a fullness to them.

With that said, since I'm trying to buy from a specific retailer I think I probably narrowed it down to the HD 598 vs the 600 and then just amping the 600 later. The link provided here said the 600's were pretty excellent, and actually (in his opinion) were better than the 650's ..

If I get a 600 and not amp them right away, am I still going to appreciate them for the time being? As in it goes from good to better, or better to best.

EDIT: On another note - the XFI Titanium HD super aggravates me. I'm tired of it's goofy hook ups (Toslink adapters and what not) and the console launcher gives me more trouble than it's worth. Are there better soundcards to pair with these headphones? I know the HD has great positional audio, but the thing has been a stress ball since it was purchased.

EDIT Number 2! Thoughts on the asus xonar phoebus amping capabilities?
Click to expand...

1. The sennheiser 598's(using mine right now) don't "lack bass". What they lack is that nasty overblown nonsense like beats. They're fine for gaming, fine for music, and they sound plenty full across the board.

2. The xonar phoebus is a piece of trash. I've already posted my comments about it in the sticky ASUS thread at the top, but to keep it short: That thing has the worst software support I've seen for a product in decades, which is a damn shame since the hardware is actually good. ASUS just sucks.
 
Merc1138 said:
1. The sennheiser 598's(using mine right now) don't "lack bass". What they lack is that nasty overblown nonsense like beats. They're fine for gaming, fine for music, and they sound plenty full across the board.

2. The xonar phoebus is a piece of trash. I've already posted my comments about it in the sticky ASUS thread at the top, but to keep it short: That thing has the worst software support I've seen for a product in decades, which is a damn shame since the hardware is actually good. ASUS just sucks.
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Yeah i wasn't reading great things about it.

I think I'm settled now. Though, I would still like to know if I use the HD600s with no amp will I get similar performance to the 598s until I amp them?

Or will it be a wreck.
 
The 600s are not exactly gaming headphones. They are much more music oriented and to specific music types at that. The 558 or 598 or the X2 will all do well unamped or out of a soundblaster zx or zxr.
You can't really go wrong with that combo. For gaming it just owns. For music, well, that is a bit different.
 
Yeah, it looks like I won't be able to have it all and I'll go with the 598 into the titanium HD and possibly amp it in the future as some have said.

Thanks guys for all the time you took in helping me. I got so many helpful responses to questions Im sure you have all been asked 100 times.

Thank you.
 
Can find some impressions of the EL-8 here.

If you had your heart set on an HD600 but wished it were easier to drive, the HE400S might just fit the bill. Measures well, volts rms requirements to reach 90db spl are notably lower than the HD600. If the bass worries you and you want to stick with open back, the Philips X2 might just be the definitive choice.

If you were willing to consider semi-closed back and wait for the next massdrop, I've been reading some interesting things about the new Fostex TH-X00.
 
I have the HD600 and use them for everything. I won't trade marginally better gaming performance or extra bass for a much less musical or less comfortable headphone.
 
sweets3450 said:
I have the HD600 and use them for everything. I won't trade marginally better gaming performance or extra bass for a much less musical or less comfortable headphone.
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Have you ever used the hd598's? Any comparison between the two?

Also, as a general question to everyone .. are the volume capabilities different as the ohms go up. The headsets I use now that are mostly USB, their volume capabilities are really poor.

I don't want to blow my ears out, but I would like them to have some power. So are they getting louder as they get higher etc..
 
prava said:
T
In my experience, blind testing with my brother, I found the Sennheiser HD555 (same family as HD598) to gain A TON by switching to a dedicated amp.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean it NEEDS an amp however. Especially for gaming use less can be more than enough.

In audio there's no limit to what you can spend for diminishing returns. This is a fact I've learned the hard way.
 
I have a Schiit Valhalla that I use with my Sennheiser HD 650's and it's extremely awesome.

That being said I've also used them with a variety of other things, including on my PC.

First I've used them on my Auzentech X-Fi Forte 7.1, which has a headphone amp and they sound great. I've also used on a Fiio E10k. The X-Fi Forte and E10k sound very similar volume wise to each other and when compared to the Valhalla probabaly about 90% of the volume. The E10K sounds slightly cleaner with low volumes. With nothing playing I something get a very, very faint hum from the headphones when connected to the X-Fi soundcard.

I have also used them plugged into a Creative Recon 3D USB soundcard, very similar experience to the E10k overall, except I can use the THX and other software audio features found in the creative drivers.

In December I recently got a Teac ai-101da and it is quickly becoming my favorite PC audio experience. It does almost everything well. It is a little underpowered for my HD 650's at 600 ohms, I get about 70% volume on them compared to the Valhalla. However they still sound great, especially considering I don't max out volume anyway. I've tested them with other headphones I have HD-555, B&W P5's, and a PC-360 gaming headset and they all sound amazing. I'd say if you had 250-300 ohm or less headphones it would be perfect.

I suggest you check it out, might be a bit more than you were looking to spend but you might find it to be well worth it. I'm totally in awe of it.

http://www.teac.com/product/ai-101da/overview/

ai-101-b_rear.jpg


ai-101-b_front.jpg


fbGpc5T.jpg
 
N1GHTRA1N said:
I have a Schiit Valhalla that I use with my Sennheiser HD 650's and it's extremely awesome.

That being said I've also used them with a variety of other things, including on my PC.

First I've used them on my Auzentech X-Fi Forte 7.1, which has a headphone amp and they sound great. I've also used on a Fiio E10k. The X-Fi Forte and E10k sound very similar volume wise to each other and when compared to the Valhalla probabaly about 90% of the volume. The E10K sounds slightly cleaner with low volumes. With nothing playing I something get a very, very faint hum from the headphones when connected to the X-Fi soundcard.

I have also used them plugged into a Creative Recon 3D USB soundcard, very similar experience to the E10k overall, except I can use the THX and other software audio features found in the creative drivers.

In December I recently got a Teac ai-101da and it is quickly becoming my favorite PC audio experience. It does almost everything well. It is a little underpowered for my HD 650's at 600 ohms, I get about 70% volume on them compared to the Valhalla. However they still sound great, especially considering I don't max out volume anyway. I've tested them with other headphones I have HD-555, B&W P5's, and a PC-360 gaming headset and they all sound amazing. I'd say if you had 250-300 ohm or less headphones it would be perfect.

I suggest you check it out, might be a bit more than you were looking to spend but you might find it to be well worth it. I'm totally in awe of it.

http://www.teac.com/product/ai-101da/overview/

ai-101-b_rear.jpg


ai-101-b_front.jpg


fbGpc5T.jpg
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I'd be interested in trying this. I do want to amp, but would you say it's a waste with a 598?

I thought I had settled, but I'm still just stuck with the idea of getting a more musical headphone that will have moderate to good gaming performance or just rolling with the 598s. Been a hard choice, have been researching every day.

Do you find the 650's to work decent positionally? Does "immersion" feel good?

No idea why the 598's feel like this underwhelming choice to me - especially where I haven't tried them and my only experience are gaming headsets.

Sounds like from what you are saying this would be a good fit with the 600's or the 598's themselves?
 
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