More HDCP back-pedalling from ATI

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wonkman

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"In an interesting turn of events, today ATI has begun to silently remove references to HDCP-ready on its consumer products."

"The image to the right is a screenshot that shows a Google cache of ATI's X1900 specifications page compared to what the specifications page is today. Google's cache clearly highlights the missing HDCP-ready claim that was present since launch. While FiringSquad's article presents a significant problem with ATI's claims of HDCP support, the problems go much deeper than expected. "


DailyTech Feb. 17
 

$BangforThe$

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I was screaming about this at ATF 5 months ago and was pretty well flamed to death for it . Its not just an ATI issue as NV hasn't stepped up to the plate either
 

ScHpAnKy

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Good for ATI, resist the temptation to fall into this horrible trap.

HDCP = stupid.
 

Demon_of_The_Fall

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Thats not good for ATI, dont be such a ridiculous fan of them.

HDCP is here to stay and theres nothing we can do about it at this stage. Sure it makes ATI great, if you don't feel like watching any high def. content on your PC :rolleyes:
 

ScHpAnKy

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Demon_of_The_Fall said:
Thats not good for ATI, dont be such a ridiculous fan of them.

HDCP is here to stay and theres nothing we can do about it at this stage. Sure it makes ATI great, if you don't feel like watching any high def. content on your PC :rolleyes:

Except for the fact that you don't need HDCP to watch high def content on your pc

:rolleyes:

HDCP is strictly copy-protection
Btw, I'm a fan of nVidia for not supporting HDCP, either.
 

Trimlock

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Sure it makes ATI great, if you don't feel like watching any high def. content on your PC

HDCP is strictly copy right protection, which requires a slew of other products to support it before you fully get it, such a great product...


right now you can watch movies on high def with out all extra prices of building a brand new computer to do it, i'm glad both ATI and Nv are keeping quiet about it, and slowly not even talking about it, i'm sure they can see it hurting their future sales
 

roaf85

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ScHpAnKy said:
Except for the fact that you don't need HDCP to watch high def content on your pc

:rolleyes:

HDCP is strictly copy-protection
Btw, I'm a fan of nVidia for not supporting HDCP, either.

I think the problem lies more in the displays not supporting HDCP. HDCP is here to stay when? FCC has already moved back the deadline for analog boardcasts to stop how many times?

The transistion period for people moving to high def is going to be how long when the people of America are already taking so long to move to High Def in the living room.
 

Firewall

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I will no longer be buying Ati products. They shipped and advertised product knowing full well they were flat out lying through their teeth, and now they are quietly trying to remove info from pages?

WOW...losers. They deserve to be hung.

I don't care that they don't HDCP. HDCP sucks, but you should like them because they don't support it, that isn't even the issue. The issue is their out-right criminal business activity...
 

Juic3

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Shame on them for lying, but its not a feature Im looking for so it doesnt make me go sour on them, heck theres no way Im changing my 2005FPW for years.
 

PRIME1

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Actually since NVIDIA does not make video cards they will never support HDCP.

It's up to EVGA, BFG, etc. to put the key on the cards.

I did hear this was going to happen with the 7900 series, but as recent events have shown I will wait and see.
 

furocious

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Firewall, hanging? You've got some serious problems if you think people should be murdered on account of business strategies and mishaps.
 

ivzk

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Firewall said:
I will no longer be buying Ati products. They shipped and advertised product knowing full well they were flat out lying through their teeth, and now they are quietly trying to remove info from pages?

WOW...losers. They deserve to be hung.

I don't care that they don't HDCP. HDCP sucks, but you should like them because they don't support it, that isn't even the issue. The issue is their out-right criminal business activity...


I hope your post is pure sarcasm.
 

Firewall

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I'm sick of corporate greed and criminalism.

Axing those that are guilty with either stop others from doing it, or just continue to get rid of filth.

The problem is you aren't taking what they did serisously. Out-right lies to sell products to make money. If not a good hanging then total disolvement of the company permanently.
 

Firewall

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furocious said:
Firewall, hanging? You've got some serious problems if you think people should be murdered on account of business strategies and mishaps.


Mishaps???!!! What are you smoking? Try known lying. Don't try to cover for them.
 

$BangforThe$

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ATI didn't lie anymore than nv did ATI and NV GPU'S support HDCP it is the card makers that haven't stepped up to the plate. If the standered hasn't been released yet. NV has I few cards out in OEM PC's that are suppose to work with HDCP . If the standards aren't set yet that WOULD be an OUT and OUT lie.
 

ivzk

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$BangforThe$ said:
ATI didn't lie anymore than nv did ATI and NV GPU'S support HDCP it is the card makers that haven't stepped up to the plate. If the standered hasn't been released yet. NV has I few cards out in OEM PC's that are suppose to work with HDCP . If the standards aren't set yet that WOULD be an OUT and OUT lie.


BINGO!
 

PRIME1

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$BangforThe$ said:
ATI didn't lie anymore than nv did ATI and NV GPU'S support HDCP it is the card makers that haven't stepped up to the plate.

ATI IS A CARDMAKER!

That's what the whole issue is. ATI claimed that their cards had a feature which it clearly did not.

NVIDIA does not make cards, so they can never claim there cards have this feature. They can say that their drivers and GPU's support this feature, but that's a billion miles from releasing a card claiming to have this feature as a selling point.
 

masher

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roaf85 said:
HDCP is here to stay when? FCC has already moved back the deadline for analog boardcasts
Err, HDCP is protection for Blu Ray and HD-DVD disks. Your OTA broadcasts will continue as usual.
 

drizzt81

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Demon_of_The_Fall said:
Thats not good for ATI, dont be such a ridiculous fan of them.

HDCP is here to stay and theres nothing we can do about it at this stage. Sure it makes ATI great, if you don't feel like watching any high def. content on your PC :rolleyes:

I heard that consumers/ customers have quite a bit of power. In the end, companies are here to solve my problem. HDCP will only win if people want to have it.
 

ivzk

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PRIME1 said:
ATI IS A CARDMAKER!

That's what the whole issue is. ATI claimed that their cards had a feature which it clearly did not.

NVIDIA does not make cards, so they can never claim there cards have this feature. They can say that their drivers and GPU's support this feature, but that's a billion miles from releasing a card claiming to have this feature as a selling point.


Stuff like that happens. I'm sure being an Nvidia loyalist you can relate. Just see numerous threads on the certain broken hardware that was advertised, but never worked on certain products.
 

vexeus

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http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html

It still says HDCP ready on my screen... did they change it back?
 

Spank

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Ati makes gpus, and they also build cards using there own gpus.

Take a look at this two pages, This is a tech specification of there latest gpus, here they talk about HDCP ready.

Radeon® X1900 Graphics Technology - Specifications

And now we move along and actually take a look at the card we want to buy, an 1900xtx,

Radeon® X1900 XTX - Specifications

hmm they dont mention HDCP ready here. Looks like they aint lying afterall.
 

ivzk

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I think it's time to close this Always Entertainingly Goofy thread.
 

deeznuts

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PRIME1 said:
ATI IS A CARDMAKER!

That's what the whole issue is. ATI claimed that their cards had a feature which it clearly did not.

NVIDIA does not make cards, so they can never claim there cards have this feature. They can say that their drivers and GPU's support this feature, but that's a billion miles from releasing a card claiming to have this feature as a selling point.

Since DailyTech did not provide a link to the product page at ATI, I wandered to the ATI site to take a look. Notice at the bottom of the Dailytech page there is an addendum, saying ATI added back in the language it took out.

This nVidia not being a cardmaker and ATI being one (well they outsource it but they do brand it, same thing) piqued my curiousity. If you go to the homepage for the X1900 series on the ATI site, here: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/index.html, you will notice that there are two menu buttons on the left. One for X1900 technology, and one for ATI products. If you click on the one for X1900 technology, and go to specifications, you do see it saying that the X1900 chip is HDCP ready: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html. If you go to their X1900 products page, where they talk about actual cards, http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/Products.html, on none of their specifications do they list HDCP ready capabilities.

So their X1900 technology page, talking strictly about the GPU is analagous to nVidia claiming HDCP ready. When you go to their products page, they do not list HDCP ready or compliance. What their AIB partners did was on their own (just like nVidia). So unless someone has a cache of ATI's site with the PRODUCTS specifications claiming HDCP, I don't see what ATI did was different than nVidia, or therefore totally wrong. A little misleading maybe, but nothing egregious. What happened I bet was that ATI got scared, pulled the language, realized what they did wasn't legally wrong (after talking to lawyers), and put it back.

EDIT: Damnit, Spank beat me to it. Same conclusion though. That's what I get for replying before getting to the end of the thread lol.
 

phide

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If anyone was mislead by ATi's somewhat misleading statements about HDCP support, they were already mislead about the real performance of these cards in the launch day benchmarks.

nVidia misleads as well. It's all part of the game. Deplorable? Possibly. Good business? Bingo.

Neither company (as a publically traded entity) really gives two hoots about us consumers. It's time to stop holding them up to doing so.
 

ivzk

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pxc said:
Your URL is malformed, but FS did mention that Sony Media Center systems shipped with nvidia HDCP enabled cards:

Wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info.
 

Mister E

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HDCP will make my games play faster and benchmarks go higher.........right? :rolleyes:

Like the poll results say, who gives a fuck right now.
 

wonkman

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Firewall said:
...

WOW...losers. They deserve to be hung.

...

I think you mean "they deserve to be hanged.

If they deserve to be hung .... ....well, that's something else entirely.
 

PWMK2

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ATI and nVidia are both equally guilty here. You can take the argument "but nVidia doesn't make cards!" and flush it down the toilet because none of the nVidia reference boards had HDCP, all of the cardmakers were told that the specifications nVidia supplied them had HDCP support and thus all of the cardmakers printed up that their cards were HDCP-ready.
 

Zardoz

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I don't care for HDCP, I hope it dies... but prolly not...

As for HDCP support in products it seems to me that there is a lot of confusion in the hardware manufactures. Not just on the video front but players, displays, and the like...

I am not really worried about HDCP at this point. It's will prolly be at lest a year or more before that kind of video even starts to hit main stream in a big way, and before I can even afford it.

Sounds like ATI and nVidia need to be slapped for there bost in HDCP support, but I feel that nVidia needs to be slapped for other things as well (can anyone say active armor firewall)

anyways...
 

DukenukemX

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What people must understand is that ATI and Nvidia did do something really wrong. HDCP wasn't probably finished or finilized when ATI and Nvidia made their graphic cards. So basically they assumed that HDCP was going to require 1920x1080 resolution and that's what their GPU's can do.

It's the same thing like how companies make products supporting technology that isn't finished. Like 802.11g or 802.11n? There were 802.11g products long before the spec was even final.

So what probably happened is that the HDCP spec changed and the ATI and Nvidia owners are SOL. Maybe ATI thought they were going to decrypt it on the CPU or right in the CD drives.

Though that doesn't mean we need to except it. We've had HD content long before Blu-Ray or HD-DVD was even mentioned. Now with HDTV capture cards we can probably record it in HD. We don't need to accept HDCP.

What these companies need to do is some convincing. Why do we want this?
 

PRIME1

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DukenukemX said:
HDCP wasn't probably finished or finilized when ATI and Nvidia made their graphic cards.
NVIDIA does not make graphics cards. HDCP can be implemented on a card independent of the GPU.

People need to read the original article before posting. The issue is that the original ATI products page listed support for HDCP even though those cards do not have that support.
 

DukenukemX

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PRIME1 said:
NVIDIA does not make graphics cards. HDCP can be implemented on a card independent of the GPU.
Yes but Nvidia does make the design the 90% of the card makers copy it. Plus if Nvidia wanted to they could enforce any design. Nvidia is no less guilty then ATI.
 

XMonkey-v2.0

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DukenukemX said:
What people must understand is that ATI and Nvidia did do something really wrong. HDCP wasn't probably finished or finilized when ATI and Nvidia made their graphic cards. So basically they assumed that HDCP was going to require 1920x1080 resolution and that's what their GPU's can do.

It's the same thing like how companies make products supporting technology that isn't finished. Like 802.11g or 802.11n? There were 802.11g products long before the spec was even final.

So what probably happened is that the HDCP spec changed and the ATI and Nvidia owners are SOL. Maybe ATI thought they were going to decrypt it on the CPU or right in the CD drives.

Though that doesn't mean we need to except it. We've had HD content long before Blu-Ray or HD-DVD was even mentioned. Now with HDTV capture cards we can probably record it in HD. We don't need to accept HDCP.

What these companies need to do is some convincing. Why do we want this?

Er, no, I don't think this is how it went down.

Also, we will need to accept HDCP if you want anything to do with Bluray/HD-DVD content.
 

PRIME1

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DukenukemX said:
Yes but Nvidia does make the design the 90% of the card makers copy it. Plus if Nvidia wanted to they could enforce any design. Nvidia is no less guilty then ATI.
What does that have to do with false advertising?
:rolleyes:
 

brom42

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DukenukemX said:
Yes but Nvidia does make the design the 90% of the card makers copy it. Plus if Nvidia wanted to they could enforce any design. Nvidia is no less guilty then ATI.

I don't know about ATI; but if you look at cards that follow Nvidia's reference design, they have the solder points for the chip. The card maker just decided not to put the chip on the card. The traces and everything are there for making the card work with HDCP.
 

DukenukemX

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PRIME1 said:
What does that have to do with false advertising?
:rolleyes:
Nothing. The only difference between ATI and Nvidia is that ATI advertised it. Both ATI and Nvidia have claimed HDCP support. We just assumed it was in the GPU like how PS 3.0 is in the GPU.

XMonkey-v2.0 said:
Also, we will need to accept HDCP if you want anything to do with Bluray/HD-DVD content.
We don't need to accept anything. The only reason to have a Blu-ray or HD-DVD disk is to have HD quality video. Which we've had.

I can't see either Blu-ray of HD-DVD work. HDCP is going to effect other components beyond computers. For example not all HDTV TVs or projectors are HDCP complaint either. It would really suck to have spent all that money getting a large HDTV only to be left out of the HD quality just because of something as silly as HDCP.

Don't be surprised if someone creates another format that will display HD quality video that won't have these drawbacks. It won't be piracy free but at least people with HDTV's and PC's that can display 1920x1080 resolution won't need to buy new hardware just to get it to work.

Worst case scenario is that everybody illegally downloads HD videos. Which will happen if HDCP is really enforced. I can guarantee you there will be lots of legal battles. At some point someone is going to giving a bill.

Also I doubt there will be any early adopters. The idea with these new formats is to have better security over their content. What good is this going to do if only the early adopters are going to buy this for 3 years? Don't be surprised if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD players will be $200 when they start selling this stuff. With the option of course to hook up as anology as well as DVI HDCP. Assuring that anyone who owns one will be able to use it. Dispite that 99% of the people who buy these players will hook it up anolog and get the same quality as a DVD player.
 
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