Monitors make me sad... Gaming on 120hz or IPS panel?

B

Baconstrip

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
184
So I normally don't pay too much attention to new computer hardware until I'm ready to buy. This has been the case with monitors.. For the past 5 or 6 years I've been absolutely loving my NEC 20WMGX2... it is still probably the among the best displays I have ever seen. I've put many many thousands of hours of gaming on this thing and it still is flawless.

Problem is, I'm now going to be building a new box primarily for GAMING and I want to go bigger. 24 inch to be exact, so I was looking for something that would make me happy like my WMGX2 has made me. I'm having a very difficult time finding what that is going to be and I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE EASIER!

Remember, this is focused on gaming, but damn I appreciate a pretty display. So I don't want my web browsing (though WMGX2 will be my 2nd monitor) to look like shit either. Hence where my issues with 120hz gaming comes in... TN panels only?

I'm willing to spend probably close to 700$. I'm building a new box with a GTX680. I'm primarily building this for gaming.


I just cannot decide between a 120hz TN panel or a really nice IPS display. I want deep blacks, and honestly, my WMGX2 has GREAT blacks. I didn't realize IPS panels were supposedly bad at black.

Do I just buy a 24 inch 120hz panel and primarily browse on my WMGX2? Can the 120hz monitors actually come close to the quality of something like a WMGX2? Or is there a higher end IPS panel that I should maybe look at? The only thing I seem to find any good gaming information on is the U2412M, which I'm considering, but I don't necessarily want a midrange IPS panel.

I guess I'd love to hear from anyone who has been in this same situation... loving their IPS panel, but going to a TN panel for 120hz gaming. Has it been worth it? How can the TN panels compare to a high end IPS? Should I just say screw 120hz?

Thanks in advance ... I just absolutely cannot decide.
 
Gaming?

120hz

</thread>

The smooth motion of a 120hz monitor, say the ASUS VG278H is amazing.
 
Baconstrip said:
I just cannot decide between a 120hz TN panel or a really nice IPS display. I want deep blacks, and honestly, my WMGX2 has GREAT blacks. I didn't realize IPS panels were supposedly bad at black.
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They aren't. I mean they aren't as good as PVA panels but they aren't bad. The problem is there are tons of whiners/haters out there. They want a perfect display and so cry about everything. Or sometimes they are a fanboy of a given technology and thus to them it is the One True Way(tm) and they hate on everything else.

Ignore it. There's lots of great monitors out there. You like IPS? Ok that's all you need to know. Remember the only person you have to make happy is YOU. Get yourself an IPS panel. If you are an NEC fan, well get one of theirs. For $700 you could look at a P241W or a PA231W. Those are some of their really high end monitors with hardware calibration and the like.

For something cheaper, you could look at Dell. The U2412 is amazing for the price. I have a $1000+ NEC pro monitor and I've got no real complaints with the U2412. It's not perfect but it is damn good and usually just a bit over $300.

So get something like that if that's what you like.

Don't buy in to the bullshit of needing some ultrafast monitor for gaming. I've still never seen a proper double blind study that shows people are even as sensitive to speed as they like to claim, and that aside only a limited number of kinds of games would even matter. All that aside, I do fine on my "slow" monitor. The NEC 90 series are 60Hz only, of course, and have 33ms (2 frames) of lag. For all that I have a KDR better than 1.0 in BC2 and BF3 despite being a suicidal medic that likes to run in to firefights :).

Now none of this is to say don't get a 120Hz TN monitor if you decide there's one you like. You do what makes you happy. IPS has a nice image but TN is fine too, maybe you find you like the extra FPS (for games that your vid card can drive that fast) rather than the better image.

You decide what is right by you. I say stay with what you like. You like your nice NEC? Get another. That's what I'm going to do. Once of these days I want a 30" monitor. It'll be a PA301W. Is it the best for gaming? The best for the money? I don't give a shit, it is what I like. I have only me to please :D.
 
Sycraft said:
They aren't. I mean they aren't as good as PVA panels but they aren't bad. The problem is there are tons of whiners/haters out there. They want a perfect display and so cry about everything. Or sometimes they are a fanboy of a given technology and thus to them it is the One True Way(tm) and they hate on everything else.

Ignore it. There's lots of great monitors out there. You like IPS? Ok that's all you need to know. Remember the only person you have to make happy is YOU. Get yourself an IPS panel. If you are an NEC fan, well get one of theirs. For $700 you could look at a P241W or a PA231W. Those are some of their really high end monitors with hardware calibration and the like.

For something cheaper, you could look at Dell. The U2412 is amazing for the price. I have a $1000+ NEC pro monitor and I've got no real complaints with the U2412. It's not perfect but it is damn good and usually just a bit over $300.

So get something like that if that's what you like.

Don't buy in to the bullshit of needing some ultrafast monitor for gaming. I've still never seen a proper double blind study that shows people are even as sensitive to speed as they like to claim, and that aside only a limited number of kinds of games would even matter. All that aside, I do fine on my "slow" monitor. The NEC 90 series are 60Hz only, of course, and have 33ms (2 frames) of lag. For all that I have a KDR better than 1.0 in BC2 and BF3 despite being a suicidal medic that likes to run in to firefights :).

Now none of this is to say don't get a 120Hz TN monitor if you decide there's one you like. You do what makes you happy. IPS has a nice image but TN is fine too, maybe you find you like the extra FPS (for games that your vid card can drive that fast) rather than the better image.

You decide what is right by you. I say stay with what you like. You like your nice NEC? Get another. That's what I'm going to do. Once of these days I want a 30" monitor. It'll be a PA301W. Is it the best for gaming? The best for the money? I don't give a shit, it is what I like. I have only me to please :D.
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All very good points sir, and really, that's part of my problem. There are so many people with SO MANY opinions, nothing is definitive. It's not like researching a new video card, or new CPU, etc. I do want to please only myself, but I can barely even research this given that opinions are so unbelievably skewed in all directions. I do love a pretty screen, but would I love the extra FPS? Heck yes I would... but would I be disappointed with the image quality on a 120hz? Maybe. BurntToast did exactly what makes this difficult.. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and hardcore gamers say that 120hz is the shit.

I guess I'm worried that no matter what I do, the chance of making a mistake and being unhappy with my purchase is high. I don't wanna drop 700$ on a sweet IPS only to have the gaming performance be garbage, nor do I wanna drop 300 on 120 and hate to look at the ugly screen in windows :p

Where are the damn 120hz IPS panels! :)
 
I think with 120hz you have to really compare side by side with a 60hz monitor. I was all about the "you can't physiologically actually tell" . . . until I finally tested one right next to a 60hz display. Now I obviously have no way to tell you how you will perceive the differences, but I gotta tell you it was hands down, night and day different.

The first thing I attempted was to just move the mouse quickly around a solid background, not expecting to tell any difference and boy was I surprised how noticeable the difference was. Next I moved on to some various games, and same thing.

I was going through the same thing: higher quality 60hz panel vs lower quality 120hz panel and after spending just a little bit of time I decided for gaming the 120hz panel was really the way to go for me.

It might not be the way to go for you, but the false notion (that i used to buy into) that you probably can't actually tell a difference is false. There was no guessing, or "maybe that's the 120hz panel." It was very easy for me to differentiate every time. Honestly, if someone rolled out a double blind rct that showed no difference for a given population, I would declare myself to have super-powers because it was pretty evident.

That's the way I decided to go. Really the best advice is to test out different options and just pick whatever you like the best.
 
Baconstrip said:
All very good points sir, and really, that's part of my problem. There are so many people with SO MANY opinions, nothing is definitive. It's not like researching a new video card, or new CPU, etc. I do want to please only myself, but I can barely even research this given that opinions are so unbelievably skewed in all directions. I do love a pretty screen, but would I love the extra FPS? Heck yes I would... but would I be disappointed with the image quality on a 120hz? Maybe. BurntToast did exactly what makes this difficult.. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and hardcore gamers say that 120hz is the shit.
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They've talked themselves in to it being better. Now no question, you can see the difference. Motion is smoother. You'll notice it on the desktop bigtime, because the desktop has no problems rendering at 120fps. In games, it is still noticeable but less. Also it is only noticeable if your hardware can actually handle more than 60fps in that game. A 120Hz monitor gets you nothing smoothness wise if your game is only running at 50fps.

What most "hardcore" gamers crow on about is input lag and like I said, I wanna see some real tests. They'll tell you the difference it makes but then they know which is which and what they believe the results to be. It is biased. I want to see it tested double blind in a lab because what I know of human perception doesn't jive with that.

That aside are you playing for money? Honour? Personal self worth? No? Then fuck it, have fun. So what if your monitor handicaps you a slight bit. Like I said, I have a decidedly non-gaming monitor and I still do ok. I kill more than I get killed, and I help my team. I'm also 31 and thus not all with the you guy's reflexes, nor the best shooite player there is. More importantly I have fun. Maybe I could be a bit better if my setup was more gamer. I don't care. It isn't like I'm sucking, so clearly my setup is good enough.

Anyone who gives you a One True Way(tm) kind of statement, just ignore. Life isn't that simple the people who think it are are not offering useful opinions.

I guess I'm worried that no matter what I do, the chance of making a mistake and being unhappy with my purchase is high. I don't wanna drop 700$ on a sweet IPS only to have the gaming performance be garbage, nor do I wanna drop 300 on 120 and hate to look at the ugly screen in windows :p
Click to expand...

You'll only be unhappy with your purchase if you make yourself unhappy by second guessing yourself all the time. You are facing a common paradox in modern society: Too much choice leading to paralysis in decision making and overall lower satisfaction. Don't let it. Get what you want and be happy with it. Who gives a fuck if it is "the best" so long as it makes you happy that is all it needs to do.

As I said I'd recommend IPS since you like it already. They've only gotten better (true of all LCD technologies).

Where are the damn 120hz IPS panels! :)
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Can't make them quite fast enough yet. The best case pixel transition time, the number you see listed as their response, is fast enough but you need the worst case to be fast enough too. For 120 solid, stable refreshes per second, which you need for 3D imaging which is the big 120Hz market, you need a worst case pixel transition time of 8.3ms. IPS just can't do that. If you get a 5ms IPS panel that is best case, but there'll be some that are up in the 12ms range probably which doesn't cut it.

Also there's getting to be less interest. 3D is flopping and that was the big reason for it. May happen some day, but don't hold off hoping it'll be here soon.

Again, get what you like, fuck all the "Real gamers need this," nonsense.
 
You better go in a shop and test a new fast 60hz without ghosting problems vs an 120hz.
 
Baconstrip said:
So I normally don't pay too much attention to new computer hardware until I'm ready to buy. This has been the case with monitors.. For the past 5 or 6 years I've been absolutely loving my NEC 20WMGX2... it is still probably the among the best displays I have ever seen. I've put many many thousands of hours of gaming on this thing and it still is flawless.

Problem is, I'm now going to be building a new box primarily for GAMING and I want to go bigger. 24 inch to be exact, so I was looking for something that would make me happy like my WMGX2 has made me. I'm having a very difficult time finding what that is going to be and I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE EASIER!

Remember, this is focused on gaming, but damn I appreciate a pretty display. So I don't want my web browsing (though WMGX2 will be my 2nd monitor) to look like shit either. Hence where my issues with 120hz gaming comes in... TN panels only?

I'm willing to spend probably close to 700$. I'm building a new box with a GTX680. I'm primarily building this for gaming.


I just cannot decide between a 120hz TN panel or a really nice IPS display. I want deep blacks, and honestly, my WMGX2 has GREAT blacks. I didn't realize IPS panels were supposedly bad at black.

Do I just buy a 24 inch 120hz panel and primarily browse on my WMGX2? Can the 120hz monitors actually come close to the quality of something like a WMGX2? Or is there a higher end IPS panel that I should maybe look at? The only thing I seem to find any good gaming information on is the U2412M, which I'm considering, but I don't necessarily want a midrange IPS panel.

I guess I'd love to hear from anyone who has been in this same situation... loving their IPS panel, but going to a TN panel for 120hz gaming. Has it been worth it? How can the TN panels compare to a high end IPS? Should I just say screw 120hz?

Thanks in advance ... I just absolutely cannot decide.
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If you enjoyed your last monitor (56 to 60Hz), then you will be fine with a good IPS like the HP ZR30W.

As for 60Hz vs. 120Hz, I haven't been able to tell a difference between the Samsung S27A950D and the HP ZR30W, which is why I returned the Samsung.

In terms of resolution it always depends on how far away you sit. I sit around 2.5 feet from the screen and 2560x1600 looks much much better than 1920x1080 at this distance. Much more detail.
 
If you can tell the difference between a CRT and 60hz monitor, get a 120hz LCD. If not, your eyes are shot and it really doesn't matter.
 
jkalman said:
If you enjoyed your last monitor (56 to 60Hz), then you will be fine with a good IPS like the HP ZR30W.

As for 60Hz vs. 120Hz, I haven't been able to tell a difference between the Samsung S27A950D and the HP ZR30W, which is why I returned the Samsung.

.
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Interesting. I own both a ZR30w and a Samsung S27A750D, and I have to say the 120Hz of the Samsung makes it the overall better gaming monitor. The high resolution of the 30" was great, no doubt, but I decided the fluid movement of 100+FPS in games on the Samsung was making my overall gaming experience much more enjoyable.

As long as I can use 4x AA, I can deal with the 1080p res, and it really looks stunning on the Samsung. Playing games like BF3 and Skyrim at 100fps with the eye candy on is just too good! Movement on the 60Hz monitor just can't compare, and what good is the incredible picture of the high resolution if it is blurred during movement?
 
Baconstrip said:
All very good points sir, and really, that's part of my problem. There are so many people with SO MANY opinions, nothing is definitive. It's not like researching a new video card, or new CPU, etc. I do want to please only myself, but I can barely even research this given that opinions are so unbelievably skewed in all directions. I do love a pretty screen, but would I love the extra FPS? Heck yes I would... but would I be disappointed with the image quality on a 120hz? Maybe. BurntToast did exactly what makes this difficult.. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and hardcore gamers say that 120hz is the shit.

I guess I'm worried that no matter what I do, the chance of making a mistake and being unhappy with my purchase is high. I don't wanna drop 700$ on a sweet IPS only to have the gaming performance be garbage, nor do I wanna drop 300 on 120 and hate to look at the ugly screen in windows :p

Where are the damn 120hz IPS panels! :)
Click to expand...

Well, what kind of gamer are you? Do you play first person shooters? Like counterstrike for example? If you turn on vsync do you notice any input lag? Are you a tactical player or do you rely on reflexs and quick reactions to get you kills?

And for the record I don't agree with anything Sycraft says about input lag and gamer's needs. He says he is fine playing on an IPS monitor and gets kills but you might be a much better gamer and might not be happy with that at all. I do agree with one thing he said though, pick the monitor you like and take other people's opinions with a pinch of salt, even mine.

And here is something to consider as well, the NEC 20WMGX2 that you have is a pretty amazing monitor and I don't think there is any IPS out at the moment that would be as good for gaming. Yes it's a 60hz IPS, but, and this is fact, it has nearly no input lag and is extremely responsive which means no ghosting. I don't think any of the 23/24 inch monitors out now can compete with it.

I have been looking for the a 23/24 inch monitor for ages, and I am not picky about the picture quality at all but can't find any thing, even any of the 120hz monitors to make me switch from my CRT. I just want a gaming monitor. I tried a friends dell u2412 and it was ok, but no way would I be happy gaming on it. I haven't tried the new benq XL2420T yet, it's supposed to be very good, but I would have to buy it to check it and I am not sure do I want to spend that much.

Sycraft is wrong about one thing, you do notice input lag, oh wait sorry, if you have pretty quick reaction times you will notice input lag. If you don't you won't and as another poster says just buy the monitor with the best picture quality because your eyes are shot anyway!! ;)

There is a pretty simple test too, just go to any of the websites that test reaction times, you know ones that you have to click the mouse button when the sign turns from red to green. I am 39, but still have pretty good reactions, on a CRT I normally get around the 150ms mark, but when I had the dell u2412 I was getting around the 200ms mark. Which shows the input lag, you don't need fancy recording equipment. In a blind test you might not 'feel' the difference but if you try the reaction tests or play games your score will go down.

Here is a reaction test site
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

Anyway these are all my opinions, if you want the best of both worlds then consider going back to a CRT if you can find one, something like the Sony FW900. I am in the exact same boat except I can't find any monitor as good as my CRT but I really would love to get a 24 inch LCD and am so close to saying to hell with it and buying the BenQ.

Oh, sorry one more monitor I was looking at and it seems to be sort of like the NEC, in that it has very little lag and ghosting is the Iiyama E2473HDS. Seems to have a pretty decent picture as well.
 
Oh you might keep an eye on the Achieva Shimian thread. See here

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1675393

They are talking about trying to get a 100hz 24/27 inch IPS monitor made in Korea, with no scalers or anything so input lag should be a non issue. Of course this might all be too good to be true and might never happen!!
 
Sycrafts advice is probably the worst advice you will ever come across besides "I have X product and love it so buy it." "Like X brand, pick one of their products." This is the worst advice ever, you might as well go into a store and randomly pick something or go ask a Wal-Mart Electronics employee for advice.

First find a display you like the looks of/is within your price range, then google search X model review. PRAD.de, TFT Central, Digital Versus and now PC Monitors all have some good reviews, PRAD being the best by far. Take the time to go through a few reviews.....then look on the forums to see what is up and get an idea on the quality control and issues people come across, hell even hit up youtube.

The Dell ST2220T would be a good upgrade for gaming from the NEC. TFT Central and PRAD have reviews. One of the Korean displays would definitely be a good size+rez upgrade, the jury is still out on the quality control: http://www.overclock.net/t/1215866/...g-90hz-achieva-shimian-qh270-and-catleap-q270

There is a thread on [H] and dedicated threads to each Korean display on overclock.net.

As far as 24" 120hz, there is only one glossy 27" choice offered by Samsung, that being the S27A750D and 950D (same panel different connections and bezel). The 750D seems to have better quality control. Going back to 23" the Asus VG236H or Samsung S23A700D are both really good for TN panels.

In terms of deciding between a 120hz TN and new IPS panel, places like Best Buy, Costco and Wal-Mart have hassle free return policies. Your best bet is to try one of the well reviewed models out for yourself if available. No one can really say if 120hz is better for X person if they have only ever used 60hz. Most say 120hz makes a big difference though and rarely does one go from 120hz TN to a 60hz IPS, it is the opposite 90% of the time, or they own both. Heck even just go and see if you can stand the viewing angles on current TN displays, they might put you off immediately.

Also be warned about the excessively grainy matte anti-glare coatings ALL matte IPS panels use: http://i.imgur.com/T3OJb.jpg Taken from here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1216559/...oating-from-a-dell-u2312hm-monitor-and-others

Say goodbye to the clarity of the NEC WMGX2 and hello to grainy, sparkly and dulled whites+light colours and some loss of text sharpness.
 
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NukeDukem said:
Interesting. I own both a ZR30w and a Samsung S27A750D, and I have to say the 120Hz of the Samsung makes it the overall better gaming monitor. The high resolution of the 30" was great, no doubt, but I decided the fluid movement of 100+FPS in games on the Samsung was making my overall gaming experience much more enjoyable.

As long as I can use 4x AA, I can deal with the 1080p res, and it really looks stunning on the Samsung. Playing games like BF3 and Skyrim at 100fps with the eye candy on is just too good! Movement on the 60Hz monitor just can't compare, and what good is the incredible picture of the high resolution if it is blurred during movement?
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They both looked the same to me when I moved around...

My setup:
3930k @ 4.6GHz
Asus Rampage IV Extreme
2 x 7970 in xfire
16 GB RAM
2 x Corsair Force GT in RAID0

I'm getting an Asus VG278H monitor today so I can play 3D games when I switch to the 4GB GTX 680 cards. If I notice anything different I'll be sure to post. I've looked at the HP ZR30W and Samsung S27A950D monitors at comparable resolutions and the only difference seems to occur because of the resolution (lower resolution increases the FPS even on the 2560x1080 monitor). They equal out IME with both at similar resolutions.

I would love to see some double blind tests of these 120Hz monitors. It wouldn't be too hard to do, except for getting volunteers to sit for the process. The monitors themselves can be switched back and forth between 60Hz and 120Hz. If this kind of switching can be done with the Asus I will be sure to do it and test some material, though it would be a completely subjective comparison.
 
I don't necessarily buy that every IPS panel has same AG. Anything less and my Fujitsu P23T-6P IPS would have too much glare in my opinion. Text is extremely easy to read (sharp too) and I'm glad that it doesn't have the same dirty look like my old Acer H223HQ. I've seen much worse AG coatings, I think this is sweet spot. I've seen HP ZR24w too and I could swear that it had rather annoying sparkly look compared to this, though. But in any case, it's less aggressive than on my old display so I'm happy.

But in any case, 75Hz IPS screen is pretty good compromise in my opinion. 75 FPS I hope that when I get my GTX 680 that it can maintain that frame rate better, most of the time my games wouldn't never reach 120 FPS anyway. There's just no way I could go back to TN. When I had CRT 75Hz was kinda the spot in my case where higher frame rate didn't make that big difference any more.
 
If you have good eyes, 120hz does make a difference when you have a good spec computer. I was on a U3011 with 7970x2's and thought that was it... until i bought the 750D. The smoothness is SOO much better! really! i can tell the difference the moment I fired up one of my games. Sure the U3011 has better image quality but 750D beats it in gaming.

I really do miss 120hz now because i'm stuck @ 60hz due to nVidia's driver not working correctly with the 750D's displayport.
 
I ended up giving up on trying to find anything remotely resembling a replacement for my CRTs and decided to just wait for OLED/QLED monitors. My 2 cents :)
 
Elledan said:
I ended up giving up on trying to find anything remotely resembling a replacement for my CRTs and decided to just wait for OLED/QLED monitors. My 2 cents :)
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This :) I just end up getting tempted all the time with every new monitor release!!
 
OP,

I've also got a 20wmgx2 and I agree about it's quality 100%.
However, I've never used a 120hz LCD.

I just sold two Ultrasharp 2209wa panels, and need to sell one more or my Asus vw266h.
I switched to one of the Korean IPS LCDs and I am extremely happy.

Eyefinity was interesting & uniquely fun, but I found that I don't play FPS/ racing games enough to justify it. Instead, I am very happy with my 2560x1440 resolution.

It is currently in the works at OCN to arrange for special pcbs to overclock the korean displays to 85-100hz. You should read about it. I am waiting for the first opportunity and then we can have the best of both worlds.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1232084/yamakasi-catleap-q270-100hz-guaranteed/0_100
 
LCD is sucky technology with many compromises. I'd wait for OLED is you can otherwise those Korea monitors seem like a good bet cuz they have gloss screen and are IPS like you have but it will be slower since it's not overdriven like WGMX2 was.
 
Sycraft said:
They've talked themselves in to it being better. Now no question, you can see the difference. Motion is smoother. You'll notice it on the desktop bigtime, because the desktop has no problems rendering at 120fps. In games, it is still noticeable but less. Also it is only noticeable if your hardware can actually handle more than 60fps in that game. A 120Hz monitor gets you nothing smoothness wise if your game is only running at 50fps.

What most "hardcore" gamers crow on about is input lag and like I said, I wanna see some real tests. They'll tell you the difference it makes but then they know which is which and what they believe the results to be. It is biased. I want to see it tested double blind in a lab because what I know of human perception doesn't jive with that.

That aside are you playing for money? Honour? Personal self worth? No? Then fuck it, have fun. So what if your monitor handicaps you a slight bit. Like I said, I have a decidedly non-gaming monitor and I still do ok. I kill more than I get killed, and I help my team. I'm also 31 and thus not all with the you guy's reflexes, nor the best shooite player there is. More importantly I have fun. Maybe I could be a bit better if my setup was more gamer. I don't care. It isn't like I'm sucking, so clearly my setup is good enough.

Anyone who gives you a One True Way(tm) kind of statement, just ignore. Life isn't that simple the people who think it are are not offering useful opinions.



You'll only be unhappy with your purchase if you make yourself unhappy by second guessing yourself all the time. You are facing a common paradox in modern society: Too much choice leading to paralysis in decision making and overall lower satisfaction. Don't let it. Get what you want and be happy with it. Who gives a fuck if it is "the best" so long as it makes you happy that is all it needs to do.

As I said I'd recommend IPS since you like it already. They've only gotten better (true of all LCD technologies).



Can't make them quite fast enough yet. The best case pixel transition time, the number you see listed as their response, is fast enough but you need the worst case to be fast enough too. For 120 solid, stable refreshes per second, which you need for 3D imaging which is the big 120Hz market, you need a worst case pixel transition time of 8.3ms. IPS just can't do that. If you get a 5ms IPS panel that is best case, but there'll be some that are up in the 12ms range probably which doesn't cut it.

Also there's getting to be less interest. 3D is flopping and that was the big reason for it. May happen some day, but don't hold off hoping it'll be here soon.

Again, get what you like, fuck all the "Real gamers need this," nonsense.
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I see motion blur with fastest TNs. You have no clue what you're talking about. It's trivial to see. Just take a explorer window and drag it around screen really fast. Can you still read it perfectly? You can on a CRT.
 
After retiring my own old 20wgx2, I have been using a Benq EW2430 - sporting one of the newer VA panels. I chose this for the even better colors and blacks, because I surf and watch videos more than I game.

The picture on this thing looks awesome, especially the depth of the blacks, and I can live with the slight blur/overdrive artifacts with the slow panels.
That said, TN panels have a better picture now than when the 20wgx2 was released, and though I haven't seen a 120hz display in person, I definitely have felt the nostalgia and improved immersion by for example, just running around in Minecraft in 85hz on an old CRT.

Realistic motion is a treat to the human eye, and if I upgrade again before OLED hits the mainstream, I will probably be getting a 120hz screen.
 
Any guesses as to how far out OLED is for mainstream? I'm considering buying a 24" 120hz but maybe I should hold off, have a 27" 60hz 1080p atm.
 
crawlgsx said:
Any guesses as to how far out OLED is for mainstream? I'm considering buying a 24" 120hz but maybe I should hold off, have a 27" 60hz 1080p atm.
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I don't know if it'll ever take off mainstream. LCDs are so cheap and most ppl are happy with them as they should be since they look at static images all day and they are perfect in that respect. Only a minority of computer monitor users care about motion or deep blacks the OLED provides. But I'm buying at $3000 and finally dump these LCDs.
 
crawlgsx said:
Any guesses as to how far out OLED is for mainstream? I'm considering buying a 24" 120hz but maybe I should hold off, have a 27" 60hz 1080p atm.
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OLED HDTVs at 55" and smaller sizes will be out in a few months from LG and Samsung. Sony is also gearing up to release more OLED panels. Targets at this point are the consumer HDTV and pro monitor market. PC monitors might be released next year or shortly after.

LCD panel production is already being reduced, with LG relocating its LCD production to China, retooling its Korea factories for OLED panels. There's no profit in LCD any more, while OLED is going to be the big driver in the display market.
 
ZoNe said:
I see motion blur with fastest TNs. You have no clue what you're talking about. It's trivial to see. Just take a explorer window and drag it around screen really fast. Can you still read it perfectly? You can on a CRT.
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Take a piece of paper with text on it and move it around fast. Can you read it? Propably not well, because the motion blur is also created in your eyes. Even if you get fastest LCD with no response time trailing and very high refresh rate, you will still see some blur on motion. This is how eye sees things naturally. CRT flickers, skipping our eyes "sample and hold" effect, making motion sharper than it naturally is. This is something that LCDs can emulate with scanning backlight, btw.
 
MaZa said:
Take a piece of paper with text on it and move it around fast. Can you read it? Propably not well, because the motion blur is also created in your eyes. This is called "sample and hold" blur. Even if you get fastest LCD with no response time trailing and very high refresh rate, you will still see some blur on motion. This is how eye sees things naturally. CRT flickers, skipping our eyes "sample and hold" effect, making motion sharper than it naturally is. This is something that LCDs can emulate with scanning backlight, btw.
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No i see word clear as bell like crt. I'm not talking about dragging so fast you get into sample hold blur, just 10in a second or so. I play mainly sc2 and while scrolling screen whole screen blurs, detail in the rocks, units faces, units heath bar, etc and does not on crt.

Also if this issue is easy to fix why don't they have scanning backlights? Seems like it would end LCD's biggest drawback once and for all.
 
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ZoNe said:
No i see word clear as bell like crt. I'm not talking about dragging so fast you get into sample hold blur, just 10in a second or so. I play mainly sc2 and while scrolling screen whole screen blurs, detail in the rocks, units faces, units heath bar, etc and does not on crt.

Also if this issue is easy to fix why don't they have scanning backlights? Seems like it would end LCD's biggest drawback once and for all.
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The benefit of CRTs for gaming is a detriment for static content viewing. Productivity work on a CRT even at 85hz sucks. They're blurry, inconsistent, flickery, and bulky. They're cute for nostalgia and some gamers, but that's it. They're probably the worst type of non-projected display to have in rooms with a lot of natural light. They'll be all gone in a few years anyway. No one's going to go back to making CRTs, replacement parts are hard to come by, and the electronics in them are already starting to fail.

Scanning backlights would not resolve the refresh lag with LCDs AFAIK. LCDs work by physically flipping little "windows". The blur you see is from the delay in that process as I understand it.
 
InternationalHat said:
The benefit of CRTs for gaming is a detriment for static content viewing. Productivity work on a CRT even at 85hz sucks. They're blurry, inconsistent, flickery, and bulky.
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My Iiyama CRTs would disagree with that :) The image I get from my colour-calibrated CRTs is sharp, without any flicker (@85 Hz). I'll give the bulky part, but they do not use more power than any other (semi-) professional display would.

Scanning backlights would not resolve the refresh lag with LCDs AFAIK. LCDs work by physically flipping little "windows". The blur you see is from the delay in that process as I understand it.
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LCDs are electro-mechanical, using EM fields to twist the crystals to block or let through light. This process will always take a few milliseconds due to the physical nature of these crystals.
 
Baconstrip said:
All very good points sir, and really, that's part of my problem. There are so many people with SO MANY opinions, nothing is definitive. It's not like researching a new video card, or new CPU, etc. I do want to please only myself, but I can barely even research this given that opinions are so unbelievably skewed in all directions. I do love a pretty screen, but would I love the extra FPS? Heck yes I would... but would I be disappointed with the image quality on a 120hz? Maybe. BurntToast did exactly what makes this difficult.. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and hardcore gamers say that 120hz is the shit.

I guess I'm worried that no matter what I do, the chance of making a mistake and being unhappy with my purchase is high. I don't wanna drop 700$ on a sweet IPS only to have the gaming performance be garbage, nor do I wanna drop 300 on 120 and hate to look at the ugly screen in windows :p

Where are the damn 120hz IPS panels! :)
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Your problem is that you do not want to compromise but the fact is in the LCD era, you have NO choice. There is no one LCD tech that delivers it all like CRTs did. You always loose something, and somethings you can just never have. I have found for myself the only possible solution is to always run at least 2 monitors with different properties. I think your best option is the option of buying a 120hz TN LCD and then running the NEC along side it for browsing. It is also really nice while gaming to have that second monitor sitting there with the time, mumble server, cpu usage and temps and anything elese you may want to see.
 
Well my Asus VG278H came. I have it hooked up side by side with one of my HP ZR30Ws. Even moving windows around on the screen they both look exactly the same to me in terms of the movement of the mouse and the web browser window...

I do notice one big difference between the two. There is more input lag between when I move my hand and when the mouse actually moves on the Asus. This is most noticeable when moving the mouse pointer in a circle real quick. The mouse on the HP seems to constantly be connected to my movement, while the Asus mouse seems to lag behind it. It is incremental, but noticeable to me.

I'm a little surprised, because people on this forum seem so emphatic about there being a noticeable difference. I'm not seeing it in terms of movement on the screen.

I will play a game for a bit and see if I notice anything there.
 
Not sure if serious...

Make sure to set the Asus to 120hz....and the Asus has 3ms of input lag when measured using an oscilloscope by PRAD...
 
NCX said:
Make sure to set the Asus to 120hz....and the Asus has 3ms of input lag when measured using an oscilloscope by PRAD=no input lag.
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It was at 120Hz.

There is some kind of lag going on. It is quite noticeable.

Also, the color differences are astonishing on the ZR30W, not to mention the resolution difference... Personally, I may have spent $25 on the shipping, but I don't think I'm going to keep the Asus monitor even for 3D, the pixels are too noticeable where I would keep it on my desk.

I wish the Asus were as easy to pack back into the box as the Samsungs were....
 
I'll hook it up again on Thursday when I have time or maybe Wednesday evening, but I think on Friday I will return it.
 
Seriously, 120Hz looks awesome and 3D is even better. Any serious gamer would at least want to experience either of those things and decide for themselves.

Make sure Windows is set to 120Hz, and everything else can support it. For example, some mice do not update very often and will be laggy at any refresh (I had this problem). Also, some low-end video cards (when underclocked on the desktop) will not be fast enough to run 120Hz, but you probably have a decent card so I doubt its that.
 
If you can't see the difference in moving a window around at 120hz vs. 60hz there is something wrong with your screen or mouse, or your eyes. It's very obvious. The 120hz one should be ultra smooth and snappy.
 
I have an apple cinema display, Samsung 120hz TN, and a fw900 graphics professional crt. The IPS ACD (which the Korean ones are similar to) has slow response time and blurs on FoV movement, even at relatively moderate speed. It's a gorgeous display for desktop and apps, still imagery, real estate. The 120hz TN is appreciably tighter on motion(especially compared to a much worse smearing ips) but it still blurs. The crt has no blur, and running at 85 to 100 hz, no percievable flicker (I do 1080 at 96 or 100 hz). Personally I recommend the best motion display you can get for gaming. If you can afford to roll the dice on one of those 2560x1440 Korean monitors to throw alongside it for another $400 - you'd have the better of both worlds.
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Unless you are doing flick mouse movement from A to B. every single FoV movement in an attempt to "blink" past the smeared texture detail and loss of bump map texture depth, or you are somehow just ignoring by turning a blind eye so to speak during FoV movement, you are going to see lcd smear. At least 120hz reduces it somewhat. High resolution ips is worse smearing than a fast 60hz TN.
 
I am running 7970s in xfire. My mouse is a Logitech MX518.

I had both screens set up right next to each other and could move from one to the other with the mouse pointer (including dragging the windows I was moving from one screen to the other). Even with both screens at different resolutions (their native resolutions) blurring was the same when moving the window at different speeds (slow and fast). When checking the Hz of the Asus, the CCC said it was running at 120Hz. I'm not seeing any visual differences when moving windows with the mouse at all nor when moving the mouse.

Tonight or tomorrow I will try each out separately with a fresh driver install after hooking up the monitor to try and eliminate the possibility of interaction effects.
 
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