Midrange GPUs had gotten High-End GPU´s Price tag

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by PontiacGTX, May 30, 2016.

  1. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    Back when Gerforce Fermi GPUs (GF Codename) the Midrange GPUs were using a bus width of 256-bit with GDDR5 memory,50-33% less vram than high end gpus,less ROPs, and less compute performance , these midrange GPUs were codenmamed either with GF104 or GF114, the price for these GPU at release were around 220-250usd with 114 being the slighly improved architecture, then High End GPUs were codenamed GF100 / GF110 these high gpus would use a 384 bit bus width and the High end GPUs used to be priced at 500usd while being around 25-38% faster than the midrange gpus GF110 to GF114 32-38% difference GF100 to GF104

    When Nvidia released the "Top End" GPU Model on 2012 from Kepler family they released the GTX 680 with 2GB, 256 bit bus width, at 500usd, and it was codenamed GK104 which stand for Geforce Kepler 104(midrange GPUs) which one year later was rebranded as a GTX 770 (GTX 560Ti/460 equivalent) given the just Released GTX 780 with 384 bit bus width 3GB vram, was taking the High-End GPU price tag for 650usd, and the GTX Titan with 384 bit and 1000usd price , not 500usd like the last high end GPU GTX 580(codename and performance wise), and when AMD Released the card which beat the GTX Titan for 1/2 the price , Nvidia released the true big gpu die from kepler 780 Ti 3GB 384 bit GK110 with a price tag even higher than the GTX 780 by 50usd (700usd) and it was 28% faster than the midrange GTX 680(GK104) , then the prices compared to the midrange fermi GPUs GF114 with MSRP of 250usd to the midrange kepler GPU there is a 100% price increase for the same market segment, a 23% difference in price between the High end GF110 and the GK110(GTX 780ti) and a 100% increase compared to the GF110 and the GK110(GTX Titan).


    In 2014 when Maxwell was released the GTX 980 256 bit GM204 had a MSRP of 550usd, 10% higher than the older midrange GTX 680, and the GTX 980TI kept its MSRP given there was no card to match performance from AMD,the GTX Titan X Keep its price tag given was tagged as a "professional GPU" (which had wose SP performance than the old GTX Titan, now in 2016 Nvidia is releasing the GTX 1080 256 bit GP104 (yet another midrange die for High end price)with a MSRP 600usd (or 700usd usd Founder Edition) then what can you expect from this price trend where Nvidia midrange GPUs are being sold at almost 3x the price they used to be, then they will keep increasing prices and also the high end gpus will be more expensive, consumers are getting less value out of their money with this trend then we will see Nvidia midrange card reach 1000usd just because consumers are allowing them to do it with the backing their users are giving them with the money they need to keep doing the exaggerated pricing from latest years.


    Price
    2010 to 2011

    Mid-range gpu Marketed as Mid-range

    • (Reference) GTX 460 229 USD
    • (Reference) GTX 560 TI 249 USD


    High-end marketed as Mid-range

    • (Reference) GTX 465 279 USD
    • (Reference) GTX 560 TI 448 289 USD

    Dual Mid-range GPU
    • GTX 460x2 519 USD
    • GTX 560 Ti x2 519 USD


    High end GPUs
    • (Reference) GTX 480 500 USD
    • (Reference) GTX 580 500 USD

    Dual High-End GPUs
    • (Reference) GTX 590 700 USD


    2012 to 2013

    Mid-range GPU marketed as High end

    • (Reference ) GTX 680 500 USD

    Mid-range GPU marketed as Mid-range

    • (Reference)GTX 770 400 USD


    Dual Mid-range GPUs
    • (Reference) GTX 690 1000 USD


    High-end GPUs
    • (Reference)GTX 780 (with performance slower than the enthusiast) [COLOR=FFA500]650 USD[/COLOR]
    • (Reference)GTX 780 Ti [COLOR=FF4500]700 USD[/COLOR]


    High-end GPU marketed as "enthusiast" (Slower than High end)
    • (Reference)GTX Titan 1000 USD

    Dual High-End GPU
    • (Reference) GTX Titan Z 3000 USD


    2014 to 2015

    Mid-range GPU marketed as High end
    • (Reference) GTX 980 550usd

    High-End GPU
    (Reference) GTX GTX 980 Ti 650 USD

    High-End GPU Marketed as Enthusiast
    (Reference) GTX Titan X 1000 USD

    2016

    Mid-Range GPU marketed as High-End
    • GTX 1080 600 USD (Reference) GTX 1080 700 USD
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
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  2. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    If you just want to decide what you think is and isn't midrange, then sure. 1070 and 1080 are high end parts, Nvidia has plenty of mid range parts they haven't refreshed yet.

    The performance and "tier" of a card has nothing to do with how many bits wide the data path to the VRAM is. For people grounded in reality, there are plenty of actual mid range cards from AMD and Nvidia between $150 and $225.

    Also I can't believe you wasted all that time typing that out.
     
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  3. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    So you are basing off your "mid-range" and "high-end" classification based on.... Bus Width???

    I do not understand where you came to the conclusion that 680 is a mid-ranged card sold as high-end?????
     
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  4. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    if it were a high end part it would have a 100/110/200/210 in the codename, also the fact that nvidia will release a more powerful gpu with a higher and more complex GPU die with more performance conffirms this isnt really a high end GPU, even 1080 isnt compared to what a pascal gpu with 3584CC would be

    higher Bus width/more bandwidth, more rops, better computer cabapilities, and a codename based on 100/110/200/210 denotes a high end GPU, if you read that between high end SKU and midrange there is a performance gap of 25-35% difference 460 to 480,560 ti to 580, 680 to 780 ti, 980 to 980 ti, and 1080 to GP100
     
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  5. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    And what is stopping nVidia from changing the meaning of such nomenclature?
     
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  6. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    You have and oversized boner for numbers on a spec sheet instead of actual performance and price.

    Hey did you notice expensive cars come with shit like 3.6L V6 engines nowadays? Those must be shit, back in my day real cars had 5.0L V8s (with less power and terrible fuel economy). But the engine is smaller so it's worse!
     
  7. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    they could try to change the nomenclature but they havent still knowing this is how their cards are being "classified"

    you would pay more for a lower end sku given the added costs even the prices were almost 2-3x cheaper some months ago? and this would keep allowing higher prices?

    if Nvidia does this then AMD would follow the trend given 80% of the market is accepting a raise in price without refusing.

    compare CPU prices from Intel
    mainstream cpus,Intel Core i3, i5 and i7 has been at almost the same prices since 2009
    enthusiast CPUs core i7 have gotten cheaper 6 cores cpus, from 1000usd to 380usd.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  8. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    Did you take into account the fact that the Fermi generation and Kepler generation had significant process node chane? (40nm to 28nm)

    Did you take into account the fact that cost per transistor bottomed out and it's now on the rise again even with the latest node?

    Did you extrapolate your study into GPUs released by nVidia BEFORE Fermi microarch to see if it was the case before Fermi?

    EDIT: Did you compare the relative performance between each of the x80 card with the previous generation x80 and same generation x70 and see if the relative performance had increased, decreased or stayed the same, or did you draw your conclusion solely from physical specifications of the dies in question?

    Did you take into account of the market conditions at the time? Was nVidia winning or losing in Fermi Generation? Kepler? Maxwell? Pascal?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
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  9. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    I'd buy the best card for the money I wanted to spend at the time. Like normal people.
     
  10. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    From 8800 Ultra (800usd) to 280 (650) to 285 (400usd) prices decreased.
    Comparing AMD Prices on 28nm GPUs they keep a 550usd price tag for the 7970 and 290x while they have better memory/bandwidth, better architecture than other gpus., and R9 Fury X had added costs due to HBM and better cooling

    the performance will increase, 9800 was slower than 285, 285 was slower than 680,they have different architecture and of course performance will vary, what matter is the performance difference of the same series/architecture

    then if the card performs more than the older gen should be more expensive without counting the market is aimed to?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  11. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    Did you take the cost of the chip itself into account?

    Your suggestion that nVidia is keep bumping up prices of cards relative to whether or not its a "high-end" or "mid-ranged" has failed to take 1 critical factor into account: cost of the chip.

    Did you compare what it would cost nVidia to make a 480/580 compared to the smaller 680?
     
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  12. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    Most of you will kiss Nvidia's ass and act like nothing is wrong here with taking x104 dies that used be x60/x60ti cards and calling them high end card. Nvidia is laughing all the way to the bank after releasing the 680 and most of you are actually stupid enough to defend that.
     
  13. exlink

    exlink 2[H]4U

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    [​IMG]

    But in all reality prices have gone up because the market dictates the price. People are paying these types of prices for cards so Nvidia and AMD will continue to raise the prices until they see a decline in demand.
     
  14. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    Yes it is fucking terrible when people spend money on things they want.
     
  15. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    Congratulations on missing the fucking point but thank you for proving exactly what I thought about the level of intelligence around here.
     
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  16. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    OK, so you want nVidia to release their latest GPUs in the same price range as they did with Fermi.

    Did you consider what would have happened to AMD if that actually happened? How good would Fury X look if it can't even beat a high end 980 (which would be what is currently the 980ti) that was released over half a year before Fury X, and was cheaper?
     
  17. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    to be more expensive? because even the reference 680 cost about the same as non ref cooled card. same with 980, now they are 100usd more for just a reference cooling and pcb which isnt better than aftermarket given it is a midrange aimed card.

    if they would be delivering the proper performance per dollar without a 100% price increase it would be fine but they arent they keep increasing 10% after the 100% they did on midrange and high end.
    if it would be then the GTX titan would be 980 ti/ultra and still there would be a enthusiast price which Fury X is aimed to since it isnt really a card to compete , it is just a concept of what HBM based Card is
     
  18. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm not sure why everyone is jumping down OP's throat. He's right, for the most part. And honestly, with the AMAZING (sarcasm) competition that AMD is bringing to the table, Nvidia is pricing these cards according to what the market will bear. Anyone who thinks that AMD wouldn't do the same thing in this situation is fucking delusional.
     
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  19. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    A lot of people are cool with whatever AMD does. Like rebranding and entire line of x90 enthusiast cards and pretending like they are new.
     
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  20. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    AMD technically keep prices similarly a HD 7870 (midrange) at 350usd meanwhile the HD 6970 which really wasnt as fast was 379usd and it was slower with a 40nm node and similar memory system, HD 7970 was a high end SKU at a higher price than the usual but they keep that price during 2 years

    let see performance wise where is GK110/104 ? they crippled/stopped improving it performance even it was similar to AMD equivalent at release, it cant handle DX12 properly and has worse performance at higher resolution rebranding the 290x was fine since the card work as intended with proper coding get fully used (like most modern gpus), while it can compete with the nvidia counterparts, so what was wrong with a 390x ? if it is cheaper than it was by 100usd
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  21. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    Wait now the Fury X is just a concept card? "Don't worry everyone, it wasn't supposed to be competitive, it was just a concept they want your money for." LOL!
     
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  22. PontiacGTX

    PontiacGTX Gawd

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    How do you think AMD can recover the money invested into R&D of HBM? with a higher priced gpus, Fiji GPUs have some bottlenecks Triangle throughput wise it cant be on the same level of maxwell due to exaggerated tessellation levels, there is some rop/raster bottleneck, the front end remained the same compared to a 290x with 45% less SPs, so dont expect to beat a 980 TI and even less with DX11 gamed which arent optimized for AMD, because most console port/recent games that are Nvidia sponsored have bad optimization for AMD unless it takes a while to patch it, without counting that gameworks cant be optimized for AMD.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  23. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    This must be why AMD skipped [H] for their Fury Nano review. Because Kyle clearly didn't get that it was a concept card. Now it all makes sense! :D
     
  24. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    I was hoping this would turn into an enlightening conversation, I guess I was wrong.

    The OP makes too many logical leaps to arrive at the conclusion that "nVidia is jacking up the prices" for the sake of it.

    However, the OP has completely and utterly failed to take COST of the chip into account. If the cost of a 580 die and a 680 die is the same, and if the performance increase is significant, why wouldn't nVidia try to sell it as a high end chip?

    The OP also have failed to compare the performance improvements between Fermi and Tesla cards of the same tier (say 280 vs 480) then compared it to the improvements between Kepler and Fermi (say 580 to 680), and Maxwell vs Kepler (980 vs 780) and finally, Pascal vs Maxwell (1080 vs 980), and then compare each scenario's lower tiers where die sizes are similar. Had the OP done that, and if it does indeed show that their x80 cards are indeed closer to mid-ranged tier cards in terms of performance increase, then the conclusion would be much more convincing.

    The lack of research that led to the conclusion (the only metrics I have seen in the OP are ROP, Bus-Width, Die Size, number of cores and VRAM, and absolutely Zilch about performance) is going to be met only with skepticism
     
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  25. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    OK, apologies, I noticed that there is performance figures in the post, but OP has made one flaw in his comparison:

    When the OP is comparing GF110 and GF114, the calculation is correct, he derived ~25% performance increase from TPU's graphs (77%-58%)/58% = ~24.8%

    But when comparing the 780ti to 680, the OP merely subtracted the relative performances to arrive at 25% performance increase. The actual calculation, if he had done the same as above, is actually closer to 40% (100%-72%)/72% = 38.9%.
     
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  26. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    But then here comes the kicker:

    "then the prices compared to the midrange fermi GPUs GF114 with MSRP of 250usd to the midrange kepler GPU there is a 100% price increase for the same market segment, a 23% difference in price between the High end GF110 and the GK110(GTX 780ti) and a 100% increase compared to the GF110 and the GK110(GTX Titan)."

    Why are you comparing performances between something to 780ti but comparing prices between the same to Titan?

    Any practical reasons for this or are you simply trying to make numbers fit your argument, rather than the other way round?
     
  27. noobferguson

    noobferguson Limp Gawd

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    This is business, and we're spoiled with even having this information that in other industries or markets people pay for what they think they need, and that's the end of their interaction with the company...
     
  28. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    I think the main point about the OP is that he is ticked off that we are no longer getting the full sized die like we used to back in pre-Kepler days when the x80 chips were > 500mm^2 chips rather than the current ~300mm^2 chips, but the prices within each tier has remained the same or have increased over the years. IE with the same money, we are not buying the same amount of silicon anymore (IE with the prices of 580 and 480, 780ti should have been priced the same as 780, and 980ti the same as 980).

    My argument would be, if that happened, what would become of AMD? If, instead of 680 being 680, 680 is now a 670, with a hypothetical 680ti being 680, would 290x be that big of a hit anymore? If 980ti was now a 980, what would people see Fury X being, or would there even BE a Fury X?

    If anyone dug deeper (since the OP quoted TPU, I will use TPU's figures for consistency), the difference between an old gen X80 card to a new gen X80 card, ever since 480 days, has been consistently above 30% between micro arch changes, even between 680 to 580, where there has been a signficant die downsize (almost half), there is still a 39% increase in performance. From a business stand point, why don't a company (AMD or nVidia) want to milk as much as possible? And as a customer, would one care THAT much that we are not getting the full die, when the performance increase is THAT significant?

    Even without process node change, the increase between 980 and 780 is still at least 30% according to TPU.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  29. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Problem is they've been very weak as of late. Unlike the GTX 460 and 560ti, which were good cards in their time. The GTX 760 was even slower than a GTX 670. The GTX 960 is hardly better than a GTX 670. If you're going mid range these days you're getting a lousy card compared to what $250 got you in the past.
     
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  30. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is freaking creeping me out. Its almost like the dollar is worth less and less every passing second, and over time looses value at gradual, but still noticeable rates...
     
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  31. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    The comparison between 670 and 760 isn't terribly valid, since both are based on the same micro arch (hence a refresh), it's more valid to compare a X70 from an old gen arch to a X60 of a new gen (EG 960 vs 770)

    However, 960 is a massively shrunk die (227mm^2) compared to 970/980 (398) or even 670 (294mm^2), and both are using the same node.

    But I do agree with you on Maxwell's mid range offering is lacking at best (my first impression of 960 as basically "eugh"), but I think this is good, at least for AMD, means AMD is generally the better buy for performance at that price range.
     
  32. PGHammer

    PGHammer 2[H]4U

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    And there's a reason why sixes are popular (as opposed to V-8s and even twelves) - and I'm talking the six-figure luxury saloons below Rolls and Bentley - such as Mercedes and BMW.

    BMW's 750i is a case in point - the standard engine there is a six; you have to go with the iL model to have a V-8 as standard. (That is not new, though; that decision goes back to the first Li (long-body variant) - which the iL superseded. The iL was, in fact, unique in BMW's line in having a twelve as an option without being intended for racing - it no longer does. Why? Fuel economy - the same driver that has brought plastic and carbon-fiber to trucks (from pickups to HGVs) and energy-sippage to portable hardware of every sort.)
    You can get performance out of a six or small-block V-8 - GM proved that with three different non-big-block engines in the late 1970s; however, you needed fuel-injection, aspiration-assistance, or both. (The engines in question - the the original "king of the small-block V8s" 305 V-8, the smaller-bore turbocharged 301 V-8 (Firebird Trans-Am Turbo from 1979 to 1981) and 231 CID V-6 (fuel-injected, turbocharged, or both - the latter in the Buick Regal T-Type and Grand National/GNX over that vehicle pair's lifetime). This was, in fact, quite commonplace in all forms of racing EXCEPT NASCAR (but not except drag racing) However, even the "good ole boys" couldn't hold out forever - and haven't.)

    Here are four names - Carroll Shelby, Andy Granatelli, John Lingenfelter, and Reeves Callaway - what do all four have in common?

    All four are in Wikipedia - I leave the chasedown as an exercise for the curious.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  33. CaptNumbNutz

    CaptNumbNutz Bulls[H]it Master

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    The wonders of capitalism. OP needs to take an Economics 101 course at his local community college.

    Also, his view of history is extremely limited. I'm sure he doesn't remember the GTX 8800 Ultra that went for $700+ when it came out. So little extra performance for so much more money. People still bought them. People that have extra money that feel they can spend that little extra to get what they really want. Sometimes its not performance, it's status.

    Yes, that is correct. :cool:
    He is right, but no one cares because most of us understand basic economics. If and when Nvidia actually prices something out of price reach, the market will react and buy less. Nvidia will then slash prices.
    Most people also don't care because we are talking a couple hundred dollars tops. Most people can save that much money not eating cheeseburgers for a week or two. And two hundred dollars is pocket change compared to adult expenses like car repairs, mortgages, kids, medical bills, etc. Complaining about the cost of a hobby increasing just sounds petty and childish by comparison.

    You're right, it is amazing the lack of intelligence here when people have to explain the elementary school concepts of inflation, supply and demand, and perceived value.

    The market dictated these prices, not Nvidia. Nvidia only sets the manufacturer's suggested retail price, the market dictates whether or not people will continue to buy at that price.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  34. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    Oh yes you are right, Nvidia has nothing to do with charging 700 fucking dollars for a x104 video card. It clearly must be all those other reasons for asking over 3 times the price of what the x104 cards used to go for before the 680 launched. Then on top of that we get the idiots saying dont compare this to the 980 ti even though it costs MORE than that big boy die gpu launched at.
     
  35. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    Nvidia will charge as much as they can charge. The market determines weather that charge is justified. Just like AMD. Remember the Nano being $650? Guess what? The market spoke. Nanos weren't selling. So AMD Lowered the price to meet market demand. This is the way it works. If Nvidia want to shit in a box and slap a $699 price tag on it, nobody is MAKING you buy that product. If it sells well, then Nvidia obviously met demand.


    Simple shit, really.
     
  36. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    Well no fucking shit. Even a child can figure that out. The point is that it is getting out of hand but hardly anyone here seems to give a shit. All we get are ignorant replies like we did all the way back to when this started happening with the 680. Oh its faster than the previous card so its high end. lol
     
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  37. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    When no one gives a shit, that means it isn't getting out of hand. Some of you sound like babies, the others sound like adults with disposable income.
     
  38. misterbobby

    misterbobby 2[H]4U

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    This coming from the person that also provided the idiotic car analogy.

    And so I guess if you have the money then fuck common sense and logical pricing as you can afford it...
     
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  39. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well, as I said: It's not Nvidia doing it: it's the market. The people buying the products. You can't really argue with that:

    "Stop feeling so confident with your purchase! Stop being satisfied by what that product has to offer!"
     
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  40. chenw

    chenw 2[H]4U

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    OK, let us assume that we are all sick of this shit and don't want to fork out $700 for a X104 card anymore, and we all boycott nVidia, will nVidia give a shit?

    Gotta love the attitude people gets when a company does more with less, then people complaining that they paid the same for less, don't care about getting more...