Microsoft's Nadella Does An About-Face On Women And Raises

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Microsoft's CEOh no he didn't Satya Nadella is back-peddling today after ruffling some feathers at the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing event in Phoenix.

Earlier at that conference, Nadella was asked to give his advice for women wanting to ask for a raise. He said it's not about asking for raises, and that women should trust in the system to reward them as they go along. Not asking for a raise is "good karma," because someone will know that that's the kind of person he or she will want to trust, he said.
 

dergreg

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The advice for men and women should be the same: If you feel like you deserve a raise you should ask for one and provide an objective list as to why. Be prepared to hear some harsh truths if your list only consists of, "I've worked here for 2 years."
 
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In any company bigger than 2 people if you want a raise bigger than the standard 3% you have to ask for it.

Well you have 3 options,
Ask for a raise - which is totally fine.
Find another job and start at a much higher salary
Get another job offer at a much higher salary and then see if your company will match it.

I've done all 3 of those and it's pretty much the only way to get significant salary increases. NOBODY...and I repeat NOBODY is going to give you a big raise because they notice how hard you work. Don't even count on it.
 

dergreg

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In any company bigger than 2 people if you want a raise bigger than the standard 3% you have to ask for it.

Well you have 3 options,
Ask for a raise - which is totally fine.
Find another job and start at a much higher salary
Get another job offer at a much higher salary and then see if your company will match it.

I've done all 3 of those and it's pretty much the only way to get significant salary increases. NOBODY...and I repeat NOBODY is going to give you a big raise because they notice how hard you work. Don't even count on it.

A lot of people don't understand how the "get a job offer" thing works. They load it as a threat and lose a lot of goodwill in the process, but that's an individual issue and not an indictment of the process.

Finding your fair market value will arm you with information, but most people simply threaten to leave their job and move on expecting it to be an effective bargaining tactic. Anybody with that sort of attitude can kick rocks in my book. Nobody's irreplaceable.
 

GlowingGhoul

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This has been subtly twisted into something it isn't.

The question wasn't about advice for women who wanted to ask for a raise, it was what his advice would be to women who were UNCOMFORTABLE asking for a raise.

Your "discomfort" and the underlying lack of self confidence is not a problem for an employer. It's a personal self-esteem issue, and if women (or men) are too meek to stand up for themselves, then too bad. Though this isn't limited to women (though it's being portrayed as such), how dare you demand equality while simultaneously asking for coddling and nurturing.

If you don't have what it takes, then, just like a man who doesn't have what it takes, you should find another, less demanding line of work.
 

Ducman69

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In any company bigger than 2 people if you want a raise bigger than the standard 3% you have to ask for it.

Well you have 3 options,
Ask for a raise - which is totally fine.
Find another job and start at a much higher salary
Get another job offer at a much higher salary and then see if your company will match it.

I've done all 3 of those and it's pretty much the only way to get significant salary increases. NOBODY...and I repeat NOBODY is going to give you a big raise because they notice how hard you work. Don't even count on it.
I have never received a raise lower than 5%, with the exception of one year where we had a hiring freeze and no one got raises, and shortly after the office closed entirely.
 

dgingeri

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yeah, that's a bunch of BS. Only those who ask for more pay assertively get it, not those who actually deserve it. Unfortunately, it is usually those who aren't competent enough to know they're incompetent that usually arrogantly demand more pay. They don't deserve it, but they think they do because they don't know just how incompetent they are. I know that from 18 years of experience in IT. Generally, competence is usually inversely related to confidence and pay rate, except at the very top.

I'm paid less than most specifically because I'm not assertive enough, although that gap has narrowed because I have become more assertive. I now make about 25% less than most systems admins, less than the difference feminists claim is the difference for women's pay.

Women don't get more pay because they generally aren't as assertive about it. It's not because they're women. For women to get more pay, they must demand it, individually, just as men do. Women just happen to be a bit wiser, in general, and aren't as quick to demand more pay.
 

Parja

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"Trust in the system"?

That's terrible advice for employees of any gender. In the US, you're worth money two times to a company, when you're coming in the door and when you're going out the door. Other than that, don't ever expect more than a "cost of living increase" unless you go to bat for yourself.
 

Ducman69

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Damn lack of edit... just wanted to add that I've only ever worked for Fortune 100 and 500 companies, and have never asked for a raise. I have however said from time to time that I am ready for additional responsibilities, and asked what they'd like to see from me to improve my job performance. I get the raises by doing more than the bare minimum, and ensuring I'm of high value to the company and yes going out for drinks with the bosses and what not helps. Point is to instill in their minds that you aren't just a random schmuck that you could replace with someone equal or better at the drop of a hat, and so the raise is there not for charity but as a anchor to try and keep you with the company.
 

Crimson

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In any company bigger than 2 people if you want a raise bigger than the standard 3% you have to ask for it.

Well you have 3 options,
Ask for a raise - which is totally fine.
Find another job and start at a much higher salary
Get another job offer at a much higher salary and then see if your company will match it.

I've done all 3 of those and it's pretty much the only way to get significant salary increases. NOBODY...and I repeat NOBODY is going to give you a big raise because they notice how hard you work. Don't even count on it.

I put in bold the above line for something that might be a bad idea:

http://www.careercast.com/career-news/pros-and-cons-counteroffers
 

tetris42

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"Trust in the system"?

That's terrible advice for employees of any gender. In the US, you're worth money two times to a company, when you're coming in the door and when you're going out the door. Other than that, don't ever expect more than a "cost of living increase" unless you go to bat for yourself.
Seriously, "the system" is out to maximize the amount of work out of each employee for as low a cost as possible. Maybe at the upper rungs that Natella occupies it operates differently, but trusting in the system is the surest way to end up being abused.
 

GlowingGhoul

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Women just happen to be a bit wiser, in general, and aren't as quick to demand more pay.

Huh, women are "wiser" in general?

Funny, you can't say males are better at anything without being labeled a sexist.

In what other ways are men inferior to women?
 

Staples

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I am the most gender neutral person in the world and even I think this is ridiculous.

He never said anything offensive unless you understood that only women shouldn't ask for a raise. But he didn't say that and it would be a stretch to interpret it as that.
 

nutzo

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Finding your fair market value will arm you with information, but most people simply threaten to leave their job and move on expecting it to be an effective bargaining tactic. Anybody with that sort of attitude can kick rocks in my book. Nobody's irreplaceable.

Nobody's irreplaceable, but some people can be very difficult or expensive to replace.

Generally, If it will cost them more to replace you (and they actually realize this), then you will probably get the raise.

The biggest problem, is when you have a clueless management that doesn't realize how important you are to the business, or how long it will take someone to get up to speed on all the internal systems.
 

EchtoGammut

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There are places where raises are done by performance and ability, but they are damn rare and far and few between. Most places you need to create a case for why you need a raise and be prepared to find another job if they are not willing to pay out.
 

Ur_Mom

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Protip: saying stuff like this makes you look sexist

Saying anything as a retort against someone that is 'offended' is an x-ist. Someone loves being black and gay and that's 'who they are' is fine. Someone comes back and says that they love being white and straight and that's 'who they are' is racist and homophobic.

There is no retort when it comes to stuff like that. You don't agree with a sexist comment? Keep your disagreement to yourself, other wise it's sexist. Even if it's completely true, you're still going to be labeled. Is it sexist? No. It's a legitimate observation. That's why you can't have a good discussion about feminism, sexism, racism, etc. without being called bad names. Someone feels oppressed, and anyone they see as an oppressor is going to be labeled the bad guy against the other person. Even if no oppression exists between the two people.

Women should be able to ask for raises. So should men. It's not an easy thing to do for most people. If you feel you EARNED a raise, then ask. If you feel you DESERVE a raise, I'd wait until you earn it. But, it's hard to generalize people. Are women wiser? Out of 7 billion people, I'd say probably not. I wouldn't say men are, either. Some are, some aren't. 7 BILLION people. Only thing that you can generalize about is that men have a penis and women have a vagina. There are some men that are afraid to ask for raises, even if they earned it.
 

maverikv

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Saying anything as a retort against someone that is 'offended' is an x-ist. Someone loves being black and gay and that's 'who they are' is fine. Someone comes back and says that they love being white and straight and that's 'who they are' is racist and homophobic.

There is no retort when it comes to stuff like that. You don't agree with a sexist comment? Keep your disagreement to yourself, other wise it's sexist. Even if it's completely true, you're still going to be labeled. Is it sexist? No. It's a legitimate observation. That's why you can't have a good discussion about feminism, sexism, racism, etc. without being called bad names. Someone feels oppressed, and anyone they see as an oppressor is going to be labeled the bad guy against the other person. Even if no oppression exists between the two people.

Women should be able to ask for raises. So should men. It's not an easy thing to do for most people. If you feel you EARNED a raise, then ask. If you feel you DESERVE a raise, I'd wait until you earn it. But, it's hard to generalize people. Are women wiser? Out of 7 billion people, I'd say probably not. I wouldn't say men are, either. Some are, some aren't. 7 BILLION people. Only thing that you can generalize about is that men have a penis and women have a vagina. There are some men that are afraid to ask for raises, even if they earned it.

Pfft are you kidding me? I love being a straight white male. Do you have any idea how much easier my life is because of it?
 

GlowingGhoul

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Pfft are you kidding me? I love being a straight white male. Do you have any idea how much easier my life is because of it?

Yeah, with all those scholarships, grants, preference in getting government contracts, and extra "points" on civil service tests given to you because of your race and sex makes life much, much easier.

Oh wait, you said "white and male", sorry, none of that's for you. What you do get is a disproportionately low college attendance rate (and sinking), a slew of companies that will hire other, less qualified people in order to check off a "diversity box", oh, and the recovery of jobs for your group is far behind that of women.
 

wabbitseason

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The advice for men and women should be the same: If you feel like you deserve a raise you should ask for one and provide an objective list as to why. Be prepared to hear some harsh truths if your list only consists of, "I've worked here for 2 years."

Thread over.
 

rudy

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In any company bigger than 2 people if you want a raise bigger than the standard 3% you have to ask for it.

Well you have 3 options,
Ask for a raise - which is totally fine.
Find another job and start at a much higher salary
Get another job offer at a much higher salary and then see if your company will match it.

I've done all 3 of those and it's pretty much the only way to get significant salary increases. NOBODY...and I repeat NOBODY is going to give you a big raise because they notice how hard you work. Don't even count on it.

This is pretty much the truth, and unfortunately it is sad but true. Most companies do not value the people they have until that person is walking out the door.
 

CorruptedOne

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Yeah, with all those scholarships, grants, preference in getting government contracts, and extra "points" on civil service tests given to you because of your race and sex makes life much, much easier.

Oh wait, you said "white and male", sorry, none of that's for you. What you do get is a disproportionately low college attendance rate (and sinking), a slew of companies that will hire other, less qualified people in order to check off a "diversity box", oh, and the recovery of jobs for your group is far behind that of women.

You realize those were all put into place to correct for inequities, right? They were not just randomly assigned to screw over white males. As a white male, nothing is more painful to listen to than other white males crying about being victimized.
 

SparkedFire

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This has been subtly twisted into something it isn't.

The question wasn't about advice for women who wanted to ask for a raise, it was what his advice would be to women who were UNCOMFORTABLE asking for a raise.

Yep. There is no reason this turned into an issue.
 

Ur_Mom

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Pfft are you kidding me? I love being a straight white male. Do you have any idea how much easier my life is because of it?

Easy? No one said anything about easy.

I'm straight. I love women. I love that about me. Look at all the women! Easier in life? Who cares. That's the least of my worries. Hell, many single, straight guys don't have it easy when it comes to life with women....

I'm a white male. I'm a guy. I have a penis. It's great. Tons of fun. White? My ancestry is mixed between Native American and European. I can get into more details by going through my family tree. A lot of excellent stuff in there.

Easy? Never comes into play for liking who I am for what I am. I am not ashamed to be a straight white male, nor should I be.

Sexist? Racist? No more than a black woman being proud of herself and liking who she is. Should I be shamed because I wasn't oppressed (either in my lifetime or my recent ancestors)? No.
 

DPI

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Yep. There is no reason this turned into an issue.

Yes it's an issue, but the people focusing on whether or not they personally agree/disagree with his initial statement is just hen chatter as they're missing the bigger issue.

The bigger issue here is that a well known CEO and figurehead of a well known public corporation - one that happens to be struggling to change its image in the consumer space and gain a foothold in consumer oriented markets - demonstrated an inability to think and then speak clearly about a topic at the forefront of the concerns of that particular audience.

Just like if you go into a job interview and can't articulate yourself and end up saying something that comes across poorly, it doesn't matter what you really meant to say, or how much you try to explain yourself after the fact - you blew it and ruined perception.

The particulars of this are just minutiae, the damage to his credibility is done.
 

Cmdrmonkey

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He didn't say anything wrong. Feminists are just so unbelievably touchy that they turned something into an issue when it wasn't.
 

BladeVenom

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Once again more leftist propaganda posing as news. Where's USA Todays articles about industries where women are a majority? The top female models get paid more than twenty times what the top male models get paid. Now that's a pay disparity. Let me know what companies pay their male programmers twenty times what they pay their female programmers.
 

B2BigAl

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I absolutely hate this guy, he thinks of nothing but the bottom line. I don't want to hear any crap about shareholders and profits, I'm sick of these companies that don't care anything about their people. This guy has put thousands of people out of work, keeps pushing for more and more h1b visas to screw over american workers, and this is just further proof of how he thinks of workers. "Just work your ass off and don't ask for a raise. Stay in line little worker bees and maybe we'll throw you a bone". I wish to god there were more viable alternatives to MS products, I'd never touch anything they make again.
 

Freebo

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OMG the press are so dam dumb

Equal rights, he would have said the same thing if the question was related to men.

Time to get over yourself people, why was it even a question between men or women, you want equal rights than stop asking dumb ass questions like that.
 

tetris42

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I absolutely hate this guy, he thinks of nothing but the bottom line. I don't want to hear any crap about shareholders and profits, I'm sick of these companies that don't care anything about their people. This guy has put thousands of people out of work, keeps pushing for more and more h1b visas to screw over american workers, and this is just further proof of how he thinks of workers. "Just work your ass off and don't ask for a raise. Stay in line little worker bees and maybe we'll throw you a bone". I wish to god there were more viable alternatives to MS products, I'd never touch anything they make again.
Is this THAT different than other publicly traded corporations however? The problem is by being beholden to the shareholders above everything else, it creates a "more money at any cost" mentality, which results in basically psychopathic behavior. If you don't listening to him, it's because his job requires that he act as a psychopath in the quest of more money for the company. In the past, the CEO was responsible to the shareholders, the employees, the consumers, and the public at large. Now it's pretty much JUST the shareholders. I agree though that MS tends to be more overt about this than some other companies.
 

SGA76

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Companies will treat you like shit and work you to the bone unless you're willing to walk.
 

timta2

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Huh, women are "wiser" in general?

Funny, you can't say males are better at anything without being labeled a sexist.

In what other ways are men inferior to women?

In my experience? Every single way. You name it. ;)


Once again more leftist propaganda posing as news. Where's USA Todays articles about industries where women are a majority? The top female models get paid more than twenty times what the top male models get paid. Now that's a pay disparity. Let me know what companies pay their male programmers twenty times what they pay their female programmers.

That's the dumbest thing I've read today. Using one example where women are only judged by their looks isn't an argument.
 

Technikal

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This has been subtly twisted into something it isn't.

The question wasn't about advice for women who wanted to ask for a raise, it was what his advice would be to women who were UNCOMFORTABLE asking for a raise.

Your "discomfort" and the underlying lack of self confidence is not a problem for an employer. It's a personal self-esteem issue, and if women (or men) are too meek to stand up for themselves, then too bad. Though this isn't limited to women (though it's being portrayed as such), how dare you demand equality while simultaneously asking for coddling and nurturing.

If you don't have what it takes, then, just like a man who doesn't have what it takes, you should find another, less demanding line of work.

Exactly. Feminists and SJWs have tuned this around. He was taken out of context. Only an idiot could not interpret what he meant.
 
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THis guy is living in the 1980's. That was the last time I got a raise from working hard, without having to go ask for one. :cool:

I don't want to be racist but .... seriously? The second* most misogynistic culture on Earth, talk about stepping into a stereotype dude. :rolleyes:

* 1st is The Fucking Taliban. :eek:
 

Phoenix333

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THis guy is living in the 1980's. That was the last time I got a raise from working hard, without having to go ask for one. :cool:

I don't want to be racist but .... seriously? The second* most misogynistic culture on Earth, talk about stepping into a stereotype dude. :rolleyes:

* 1st is The Fucking Taliban. :eek:

Replace "Taliban" with any Islamic nation.
 
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